Super Nice People Who Are Hardcore Cheaters

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city_player

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I play (or used to play) with a group of 10-15 players who are close to me in ability. About half are a bit better (3.5+ or weak 4.0) and about half are not quite as good (around 3.0).

One of the players is in charge of setting up the events through facebook. She's actually a very nice 60+ lady. She's been playing regularly for at least 5 years that I know of, but likely a lot longer than that. She's a pretty decent 3.0 recreational player.

She's very nice, very encouraging ("nice shot!"), always friendly to everyone before, during, after matches.

The thing is, she is the most unapologetic cheater I have seen in a long time. Yes, she is older. I sometimes used to wonder if her eyesight was failing. But I have seen her look at a ball directly in front of her line of sight, literally a couple of feet away, as the ball falls squarely on the line and she will raise a finger every single time calling it out.

Like I said, about half of the players are 3.0/rec players so the balls aren't exactly flying by, so the line read should be impossible to miss.

Not only will she call balls out that fall directly on the line, she'll make many calls before the ball lands, at least half of which fall in. I have had to overrule her many, many times, as do her other partners.

The thing is, she is in charge of organizing the events and does a great job of scheduling at times that are very convenient for me, so I'm often tempted to go.

If you overrule her or try to remind her of how to actually call lines, her feelings get hurt and she becomes belligerent.

I think it's largely due to the fact that she is several decades older than the rest of us and probably understands she can't really compete physically so she tries to compensate by making extremely ****ty calls.

There are other tennis groups of course but that would mean paying monthly dues, which might not to be my liking considering that I don't play more than once a week.

Tennis is so fun but there are lots of fun sports to play so I've been playing other sports this year. But I played again this weekend and had mixed feelings since it was so fun but I despise how much this woman cheats.
 
Nothing like a POMO forehand to show an old lady what's what.

Although you may get stuck hitting against a ball machine at midnight.
 
She could be unapologetic because she doesn't know she is doing it. Maybe she does have bad eyesight or she could simply have trouble tracking the ball properly. If it happens more when she is behind in score I'd suspect cheating a bit more. If it is consistently bad regardless of the score, I may suspect she just can't track and make a good call. Maybe they really are "out" to her troubled eyes.

Set your tennis bag on her bench. If she gets bent out of shape over that, she's a cheater for sure.
 
IA-SteveB said:
She could be unapologetic because she doesn't know she is doing it. Maybe she does have bad eyesight or she could simply have trouble tracking the ball properly. If it happens more when she is behind in score I'd suspect cheating a bit more. If it is consistently bad regardless of the score, I may suspect she just can't track and make a good call. Maybe they really are "out" to her troubled eyes.

Set your tennis bag on her bench. If she gets bent out of shape over that, she's a cheater for sure.
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If it was just bad eyesight then she should make an equal # of errors in her opponent's favor [ie playing an out ball]. But the higher the % of calls that go her way, the more likely she's cheating vs making an honest mistake.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
If it was just bad eyesight then she should make an equal # of errors in her opponent's favor [ie playing an out ball]. But the higher the % of calls that go her way, the more likely she's cheating vs making an honest mistake.
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100% of her calls are in her or her partner's favor. All of them.

I've played with her plenty of times and she has never called an opponent's ball which was close to the line "in" when I was playing with her.

I've tried overruling her a few times playing with her and against her but she goes apeshit each time.

norcal said:
Nothing like a POMO forehand to show an old lady what's what.

Although you may get stuck hitting against a ball machine at midnight.
Click to expand...

Don't know what a POMO is, but in this context it sounds like a good idea. :)
 
Rule #1: Embrace the bad line caller. They are who they are and you aren't going to change them. Expect every close line call to be out and try not to hit too close to the lines. If you can't beat a cheater with one inch less court dimensions, you likely weren't going to beat them anyways.

We have several otherwise great guys that are terrible at line calls and everyone knows it. It used to upset me but then I realized that there was no reason to get upset in a recreational game. I'm not there to get calls my way. I'm there to try to hit some nice shots and see how my skills match up against an opponent. The score will be what the score will be.

Of course I'm still going to point out really bad calls and try to play the chronic bad line callers on clay as much as possible. Often you can improve their calling if you ask them to find the mark after very close call. In general, good line callers can find the mark right away and point it out as soon as they make the call. Bad line callers, hum and haw and search up and down the line for an acceptable alternative mark that suits their distorted view of the world. Getting them to properly spot the landing mark is the greatest service you can do for them.
 
Dartagnan64 I wish I could embrace and exude the same sense of calm and acceptance that you do re: cheaters.

She is way too blatant in her cheating. One of her favorite tactics is to erase on the line winners by calling all of these balls "out."

MOST of the time, no one will question it, since she is also sneaky enough to block the ball with her body whenever possible so only she can make the call.

Furthermore, even when her opponent overrules (rare), she will then call to "play the point over" giving her team another chance to win after erasing the winner.

She will do this multiple times in a set, every chance she gets. No one gets upset with her, and she is rarely overruled. Plus, she always calls for a replay so in effect she can't be overruled.

I think I'm going to post a friendly reminder including video on how to make proper line calls on our facebook page. Enough is enough.
 
city_player said:
Don't know what a POMO is, but in this context it sounds like a good idea. :)
Click to expand...
It means hitting a shot as hard as you possibly can right at her body.

Don't worry if the ball hits the fence on the fly if it doesn't touch her. The most important part of the "Way of POMO" is to intimidate the old lady
 
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3.0
60+
Bad eyes
Making calls before the ball lands
Super nice personality

Ok... I will give her a pass. The above is a perfect combo for absolute horrible ball prediction... and there by causing bad calls. So you all just keep correcting her calls, but please don't try to teach her how to make the calls, or criticize her. You can chose to not play with her... but there is no point in trying to teach her something new now. Also if you chose to play with her, give her a benefit of doubt, and just accept that her ball prediction is so poor, and probably causing all these bad calls (instead of asserting that she is a cheater, especially if she is not in real life).

city_player said:
Not only will she call balls out that fall directly on the line, she'll make many calls before the ball lands, at least half of which fall in.
Click to expand...
 
I never said she had bad vision. This is total speculation.

I DO know every call is in her favor. Which suggests her vision is excellent. Her ball calling is inaccurate, but it is 100% consistent. In her favor.

She cheats because she can get away with it. She definitely does not like to lose and so she always fudges scores whenever and wherever possible. She's old, she's a woman, so she feels like she should be able to cheat, instead of improving her tennis.

Even my doubles partner gets pissed off when I hit winners off her. "Don't make her run!" "A slice shot isn't fair!"

Basically the younger players are expected to lose to her or at the very least let her cheat whenever she wants because she's old and a woman and because she takes the time to organize the events on facebook.
 
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You may not like it, but here is my take on it. You have two choices, 1) stop playing with her and get on with your business with folks whom you like to play 2) If you chose to play with her, do not consider beating her as a primary thing. You know she is weaker, you know you can beat her. So make it interesting by hitting easier balls to her, and allowing some of her "ego" to win, just out of consideration of her age, and courtesy. Never hit a hard ball at her. Don't do anything you may regret later. 3) Absolutely no-one other than her can tell whether she is cheating or not, however obvious it looks to you. Also at that age, she is not going to change, she is not going to improve tennis. So just let it go, if you plan to play with her. I don't even see a reason for finding out for real, whether she is cheating or not.

I would have a different opinion on possible cheating, for another opponent of yours. But a 60+ super nice, weak 3.0, old lady..... come on.... forget about it.

In fact I have a feeling that, others in the group are probably already seeing you as a "jerk" trying to assert your tennis-domination against her (more than they see her as a cheater).

city_player said:
Basically the younger players are expected to lose to her
Click to expand...
 
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Morch Us said:
You may not like it, but here is my take on it. You have two choices, 1) stop playing with her and get on with your business with folks whom you like to play 2) If you chose to play with her, do not consider beating her as a primary thing. You know she is weaker, you know you can beat her. So make it interesting by hitting easier balls to her, and allowing some of her "ego" to win, just out of cosideration of her age, and courtesy. Never hit a hard ball at her. Don't do anything you may regret later. 3) Absolutely no-one other than her can tell whether she is cheating or not, however obvious it looks to you. Also at that age, she is not going to change, she is not going to improve tennis. So just let it go, if you plan to play with her. I don't even see a reason for finding out for real, whether she is cheating or not.

I would have a different opinion on possible cheating, for another opponent of yours. But a 60+ super nice, weak 3.0, old lady..... come on.... forget about it.

In fact I have a feeling that, others in the group are probably already seeing you as a "jerk" trying to assert your tennis-domination against her.
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Seems like the best course of action for the OP is to see who else is aggrieved by this and form their own group
 
When I was young I remember playing a few pick-up basketball games against old guys who couldn't move. They would just clothesline you rather than let you get by them. It was the only move they had. She may feel this is the only move she has to keep up. Doesn't have to be a malicious thing, it just happens.
 
city_player said:
I play (or used to play) with a group of 10-15 players who are close to me in ability. About half are a bit better (3.5+ or weak 4.0) and about half are not quite as good (around 3.0).

One of the players is in charge of setting up the events through facebook. She's actually a very nice 60+ lady. She's been playing regularly for at least 5 years that I know of, but likely a lot longer than that. She's a pretty decent 3.0 recreational player.

She's very nice, very encouraging ("nice shot!"), always friendly to everyone before, during, after matches.

The thing is, she is the most unapologetic cheater I have seen in a long time. Yes, she is older. I sometimes used to wonder if her eyesight was failing. But I have seen her look at a ball directly in front of her line of sight, literally a couple of feet away, as the ball falls squarely on the line and she will raise a finger every single time calling it out.

Like I said, about half of the players are 3.0/rec players so the balls aren't exactly flying by, so the line read should be impossible to miss.

Not only will she call balls out that fall directly on the line, she'll make many calls before the ball lands, at least half of which fall in. I have had to overrule her many, many times, as do her other partners.

The thing is, she is in charge of organizing the events and does a great job of scheduling at times that are very convenient for me, so I'm often tempted to go.

If you overrule her or try to remind her of how to actually call lines, her feelings get hurt and she becomes belligerent.

I think it's largely due to the fact that she is several decades older than the rest of us and probably understands she can't really compete physically so she tries to compensate by making extremely ****ty calls.

There are other tennis groups of course but that would mean paying monthly dues, which might not to be my liking considering that I don't play more than once a week.

Tennis is so fun but there are lots of fun sports to play so I've been playing other sports this year. But I played again this weekend and had mixed feelings since it was so fun but I despise how much this woman cheats.
Click to expand...
No one who cheats is a nice person.
 
city_player said:
I

She cheats because she can get away with it. She definitely does not like to lose and so she always fudges scores whenever and wherever possible. She's old, she's a woman, so she feels like she should be able to cheat, instead of improving her tennis.

Even my doubles partner gets pissed off when I hit winners off her. "Don't make her run!" "A slice shot isn't fair!"

Basically the younger players are expected to lose to her or at the very least let her cheat whenever she wants because she's old and a woman and because she takes the time to organize the events on facebook.
Click to expand...

Okay, I was mostly on your side until these asinine comments.

So, you now add that she cheats on the score too ... didn't bother to mention that the first time, so maybe/maybe not..

She cheats because she is a woman? really? you do realize that more than 65% of the adult tennis world is comprised of women right?

She cheats because she is old. Really? I am considered older, don't cheat, don't know many people who do, and the ones that are cheaters, are varied ages.

Yup, you are the one being a jerk in your painted scenario.

Go find some young honest men and play with them, or go find a ball machine solo.
 
Nashvegas said:
When I was young I remember playing a few pick-up basketball games against old guys who couldn't move. They would just clothesline you rather than let you get by them. It was the only move they had. She may feel this is the only move she has to keep up. Doesn't have to be a malicious thing, it just happens.
Click to expand...

I wanted to believe she was doing this 'subconsciously, ie unintentionally. But when we played this week, it left no doubt she is doing this intentionally, willfully and consistently.

On one play I hit a cross court winner right on the line. In a rare move, all three of us overruled her immediately. She was caught with her knickers down this time since she usually calls balls out on the baseline where none of the other players can make a call or overrule her.

This time however, the ball hit squarely on the SIDEline in the middle of her side of the court allowing everyone to see the ball clearly.

The reason all of us overruled her I believe is because I had already overruled her on a previous play, where again, she attempted to call a ball out on the sideline although it was clearly on the line.

I emboldened the other players because they are not used to challenging her when she cheats and I was.

So what was happening is that she was cheating so often she became more and more brazen, abandoning her 'cheat on baseline calls only' strategy to cheating on ALL line calls, even when other players can see the play.

Also, I can't employ a hit the ball just in strategy as she also cheats on balls that fall in without hitting the line. She also calls balls out when they are still in the air which I already mentioned and most of those land in.

She is a brazen cheater and allowing it to pass only enables her to cheat more and more. Give her an inch and she takes a mile.

I soundly reject the strategy of 'letting her get away with it because she's an old weak woman.' Cheating is cheating.
 
It's interesting that most people posting in this thread believe in allowing her to cheat. Hmmmm....pretty shady bunch we have here.
 
Also, she calls phantom "lets" sometimes to give her partner another serve opportunity. It's endless.

I challenged her a few times already so the other players may be more willing to challenge her cheating. We shall see.
 
Sounds like you need to redefine what "fun" means to you. Doesn't sound like you're having any playing with her, so there's a simple solution right there: Play with other people. Can't be too hard organizing a hit, can it?
 
That exactly is the solution. Not sure why it is so hard for you to understand, @city_player . You seem to have so much hatred, not even sure how much of your statements are exaggerated. No one is supporting the cheating here. But the more you talk we see another bigger issue than cheating.
Alex78 said:
Sounds like you need to redefine what "fun" means to you. Doesn't sound like you're having any playing with her, so there's a simple solution right there: Play with other people. Can't be too hard organizing a hit, can it?
Click to expand...
 
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No one condones the cheating and you can find umpteen threads discussing bad line calling and what to do about it. Most people here have said they tend to be generous with calls because that's how they prefer to play.

If she's as bad as you say move on.
 
It is tough when you get into competitive situations and calls become and issue. In out division there are a few different teams out of one facility that everyone knows they call anything even remotely close to a line immediately out. Even with your whole team watching, their team watching and everyone knowing they are making bad calls, they still make them. It has been so bad it has come down to almost fighting on court. Even that does not deter them. But even team in the division knows this going into matches and we tend to hit down the middle and with a lot of margin (or just right at them with pace) and do well.

That is different then when I am playing with some *ahem* older folks who just can see well enough, or can't keep up with the pace. Those we just kinda get and it is what it is. Eventually we will all be that person. :)
 
Why don't you just challenge her call by asking pointedly "Are you sure?"

There is an old guy at my club who is notorious for bad line calls (all in his favor of course), but he has changed a lot after we started pointing them out, and now even makes jokes about his calls.
 
city_player said:
I play (or used to play) with a group of 10-15 players who are close to me in ability. About half are a bit better (3.5+ or weak 4.0) and about half are not quite as good (around 3.0).

One of the players is in charge of setting up the events through facebook. She's actually a very nice 60+ lady. She's been playing regularly for at least 5 years that I know of, but likely a lot longer than that. She's a pretty decent 3.0 recreational player.

She's very nice, very encouraging ("nice shot!"), always friendly to everyone before, during, after matches.

The thing is, she is the most unapologetic cheater I have seen in a long time. Yes, she is older. I sometimes used to wonder if her eyesight was failing. But I have seen her look at a ball directly in front of her line of sight, literally a couple of feet away, as the ball falls squarely on the line and she will raise a finger every single time calling it out.

Like I said, about half of the players are 3.0/rec players so the balls aren't exactly flying by, so the line read should be impossible to miss.

Not only will she call balls out that fall directly on the line, she'll make many calls before the ball lands, at least half of which fall in. I have had to overrule her many, many times, as do her other partners.

The thing is, she is in charge of organizing the events and does a great job of scheduling at times that are very convenient for me, so I'm often tempted to go.

If you overrule her or try to remind her of how to actually call lines, her feelings get hurt and she becomes belligerent.

I think it's largely due to the fact that she is several decades older than the rest of us and probably understands she can't really compete physically so she tries to compensate by making extremely ****ty calls.

There are other tennis groups of course but that would mean paying monthly dues, which might not to be my liking considering that I don't play more than once a week.

Tennis is so fun but there are lots of fun sports to play so I've been playing other sports this year. But I played again this weekend and had mixed feelings since it was so fun but I despise how much this woman cheats.
Click to expand...
you need to play more usta or tournaments.

presume all lines you hit are:
a) out
b) an accident anyway, so should be called out - don't even try telling me you did it on purpose

you will be much happier this way.

i presume all 3.0's play "line is out" because i feel 95% of them do play that way...
if you stay in the game, you'll run into alot d*uchier people (i promise you)....
and you'll realize the 60y old lady rec player, that does all the crappy work of organizing, is a blessing...
just presume, for you, the court dimensions are 77x26

if you think the 60y old lady is cheater, then don't invest your money with her...
and if you really get annoyed, just drop shot her (which in turn avoids lines also - win/win!)
but do NOT waste another moment complaining or thinking about this (life's too short)
 
Morch Us said:
That exactly is the solution. Not sure why it is so hard for you to understand, @city_player . You seem to have so much hatred, not even sure how much of your statements are exaggerated. No one is supporting the cheating here. But the more you talk we see another bigger issue than cheating.
Click to expand...

"hatred"? Isn't that somewhat of an exaggeration also?

I don't sense hatred. I do sense annoyance, perhaps a high degree. But "hatred" is a pretty strong word.

I do agree that it's unlikely anyone is going to change her behavior. So @city_player either rolls with it or forms another group. Either way, he stops stressing about it and gets back to enjoying tennis.
 
city_player said:
It's interesting that most people posting in this thread believe in allowing her to cheat. Hmmmm....pretty shady bunch we have here.
Click to expand...

No one condones cheating here, but we do accept that there are cheaters and everyone has different ways to deal with it. Often being confrontational just leads to the accuser getting blackballed. What's worse than having to play a cheater? Having no one to play with.

Many cheaters aren't doing it intentionally. They are just narcissists. They have a distorted view that always sees things in their favor. It's all at a screwed up subconscious level. Can't change them, only avoid them. If they bother you enough then don't play with them. If you can live with them, then just ignore it for the most part. I can still beat a 60 year old lady cheater by not hitting near lines, clearly announcing the score before each serve, returning first serves well.
 
next time she makes a bad call, jump the net and punch her in the nose!

Just kidding.

If cheating is this ingrained, your best option is to move on and hit against others. Decades ago I played an older guy when I was first learning to play. At first, he only made a few bad calls but when I started to beat him, the frequency of the bad calls and severity of the errors got much worse. It was well known in the group who played with him that he cheated. I moved on and just played with other people. Haven't seen the guy in decades.
 
I handle cheaters a bit different. I start calling everything: lines, inside the lines, 2ft inside the lines, foot faults, lets, delays, you name it I call it. When the complaints start flying I just explain that given the amount of bad calls they were doing I figured that was the type of match we were playing.
 
texasleaguer said:
I handle cheaters a bit different. I start calling everything: lines, inside the lines, 2ft inside the lines, foot faults, lets, delays, you name it I call it. When the complaints start flying I just explain that given the amount of bad calls they were doing I figured that was the type of match we were playing.
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to wager that someone who followed this behavior in the OP's scenario would be labelled the bad guy.
 
It seems my only other option is to get a membership at the local tennis club. I've been told they can match you with people at a similar level. My guess is that people who join a club are usually strong 3.5's or above and play relatively consistently so I might be losing a lot of matches.

A second option is to take lessons and practice more consistently to get to at least a middling 3.5.

The busiest times are weekend mornings and I am not much of a morning person so I may have to change that if I want to continue to play tennis.

There is a second member of the facebook group who is incredibly annoying. He gets very upset if I hit a winner against the older lady. So, basically, my role is to help the older lady win as many points, matches and sets as possible. Ridiculous.
 
It seems like the informal rule in "social tennis" is to call balls on the line out. I think I'll start doing that without the slightest bit of guilt.
 
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city_player said:
It seems like the informal rule in "social tennis" is to call balls on the line out. I think I'll start doing that without the slightest bit of guilt.
Click to expand...
lol, my dad taught me that lesson, early when i was growing up
i got grounded many times arguing with his line calls.
a saner, social, more fun way to play tennis is just presume lines are out (against me, IN for my opponents). When anyone at the rec level hits lines, it's an accident anyway.
 
nytennisaddict said:
lol, my dad taught me that lesson, early when i was growing up
i got grounded many times arguing with his line calls.
a saner, social, more fun way to play tennis is just presume lines are out (against me, IN for my opponents). When anyone at the rec level hits lines, it's an accident anyway.
Click to expand...
Yeah. That's pretty much how I view it. Anytime I'm free hitting with my hitting partner and there's a close call, it's always "Great shot. Just out in a league match. "
 
Some newbies tend to confuse between social tennis and competitive tennis. For example when a strong/experienced player go play mixed with obviously weak partners/opponents, he is not there to enforce rules, and show off his line kissing, fast paced killer shots. Naturally you get along with the group by playing to "their level" and have some fun. At the same time, the weakest of the group may really be trying the hardest to keep up.

You go get someone of your own ability/stregth when you want to get your competitive game out. And if you "don't like" playing with the group, then instead of calling them names, get out and play with some one whom you like. Every group follow their own unwritten rules/procedures. You either get along, or get out.

Anyway, many already tried to point out the same, but seems like the OP is not really willing to listen.
 
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