Supination and pronation in groundstrokes?

Hi,

I understand the pronation in the serve (it means to turn the racket so you're able to hit the ball with your strings, not your beam). Supination is just the opposite I think

But what does pronation and supination mean in a forehand (topspin) and backhand groundstroke. I know the forarm motion in the forehand topspin, has it anything to do with pronation or supination. Or where should I pronate or supinate my (fore)arm in the forehand topspin stroke?

THanks
 
talking of supination and pronation, what does it mean in feet? my local pro shop guy was on about depending on whether i pronate or supinate, it will affect which part of my sole gets worn out first..............my sole has worn out along the inside, nearer the big toe, at the ball of the foot, do i pronate or supinate?

soz i changed the topic slightly.......
 
Return_Ace, sounds like your feet over-pronate. Basically, the arch collapses more than it should...that's probably why you use the inside of your shoe more.

Shock, perhaps pronation during the forehand stroke means that the racquet face is more open than normal for the type of grip you use?
 
When you pronate on the forehand side, your thumb goes down, and when you supinate, your palm is facing the sky. I hope you can figure out that you pronate on topspin and supinate on slice when you're on the forehand side.
 
Pronation: Rotating the forearm/wrist so that the palm is facing down. So counter-clockwise rotation on the forehand, clockwise rotation on the left.

Supination: Opposite. Rotating the forearm/wrist so that the palm is facing up. Clockwise rotation on the right hand, counter-clockwise on the left.

Rickson already said it. ^^

In the forehand groundstroke, you naturally pronate a bit when you brush up. Topspin is achieved when your racquet hits the bottom part of the ball and you push through.

But forcing the pronation results in more topspin, but lack of depth and the windshield wiper motion. So I'd just try dipping the racquet (some people supinate before the swing to naturally get more of the pronation, but you really should just dip the racquet) and push through.

Same thing in the backhand. Just dip the racquet to enable easy contact with the bottom of the ball, and extend through. Otherwise you sacrifice depth and pace.

If your racquet is slightly under the ball and you drive through, you'll get slight topspin. If your racquet is way under the ball before the forward swing, you're going to get more topspin and a higher ball. It's best to just work it out for yourself on the court though.
 
Hi,
thanks for the answers, I understand!

But is it really important to think about a pronation in the forehand groundstroke? I don't really know whether I do it, I just know I come from low to high to get my topspin...
 
When you unscrew a bulb it's pronation; when you install (screw) the bulb it is supination. Or when your palm and thumb are going forward it's pronation, when they are going backward it's supination.

In order to hit the serve with the continental grip you ought to pronate.

On a bit higher ball to your forehand e.g. chest high, as you hit you pronate a bit to keep the ball down in the court.

On a bit higher ball to your 1-handed backhand, you supinate a bit to keep the ball down in the court.

On a bit higher ball to your 2-handed BH (right-handed): The right arm supinate, the left arm pronate.

Accomplished players know how much to pronate or supinate!
 
Mahoob Khan said:
When you unscrew a bulb it's pronation; when you install (screw) the bulb it is supination

Stupid Right-Handers...............lol j/k thnx for that one, and you too Bex

But....................Pronation in feet? can you screw in a light bulb using your feet? (don't answer that btw)
 
Mahboob Khan said:
When you unscrew a bulb it's pronation; when you install (screw) the bulb it is supination. Or when your palm and thumb are going forward it's pronation, when they are going backward it's supination.
What? That's not true! Well, maybe it's untrue because I change a light bulb with my left hand.
 
Obviously, you have to reverse it for the left-handed players! Cum'onnn! That example was for the right-handed players. Grow up small children!
 
Mahboob Khan said:
Obviously, you have to reverse it for the left-handed players! Cum'onnn! That example was for the right-handed players. Grow up small children!
You know I'm only messing with you, Mahboob.
 
ShockTreatment said:
Hi,
thanks for the answers, I understand!

But is it really important to think about a pronation in the forehand groundstroke? I don't really know whether I do it, I just know I come from low to high to get my topspin...

About the only stroke you might have to think about supinating is when you choose to use the Ken Rosewall dirving slice. That is the only time you need to consciously supinate until it is a natural thing.

You should not think about pronating on any other stroke unless you are having some real problems. Otherwise, pronation and supination happen naturally.

Everyone here has given you excellent advice.

I usually refer to pronation and supination as;

With your arm straight out and the palm facing the ground. If you turn the thumb up, that is supination. If you turn the thumb down, that is pronation.
 
Rickson: I know. Nice to hear from you.

Bungalo Bill: Great and simple example about supination and pronation. One does not have to wait for a light bulb! I will use your example in my coaching programs!

Regards,

Mahboob Khan
 
I have recently discovered that pronation/supination/pronation (psp) is the foundation of most, or all, strokes. But it is easier to think about, to begin with, in the model of just throwing a ball. When you begin to throw a ball overhanded you bring your hand up by your ear with the thumb down and the palm facing away from your ear. The elbow is behind you. This is pronation. Then as you whip your arm forward it supinates and then pronates again...very rapidly...psp. You can't effectively throw a ball without doing this. Everyone does it. The speed of the ball comes from doing this...psp.

All good pro tennis serves are also done with this same sequence and all the killer forehands are done like this also. This is where the power comes from.
 
Thanks to everyone for the very clear and helpful info. I do have a question though about pronation/suppination for the serve. Let me just start off by saying that I'm a left handed player so please take that into account when you make your suggestions.

From what I've read here so far on this thread, it seems to me that on most serves that require some type of spin (twist/topspin/kick) the natural tendency would be to suppinate with the wrist. I may be thinking of this wrong but it is what makes sense to me after reading the previous replies. I always believed that pronation was required on the serve but it seems to not be the case. Can someone please clarify this for me if I'm wrong and let me know what type of wrist action is needed for earch type of serve

Flat ==>
Topspin ==>
Slice ==>
Kick ==>

Your advice will be greatly appreciated. I do agree with everyone else about pronation/suppination on groundstrokes; you shouldn't think about it too much as it will happen naturally. Thinking about doing one of the two before a stroke will cause you to not hit the ball cleanly and either send it long or too short/in the net.
 
bkc said:
...

All good pro tennis serves are also done with this same sequence and all the killer forehands are done like this also. This is where the power comes from.

I am fine with your throwing analogies but stumbled over the above words.

Pronation and supination are not the sources of power. They are only a means of transferring kinetic energy efficiently. Stored energy primarily comes from the ground. Kinetic energy is energy in motion. Pronation/Supination is not where power comes from.
 
I have no clue why this supination/pronation stuff keeps popping up. Are people having problems with allowing the body to do this naturally?

What I mean is, no one talks about how the arches of your feet should work when you are moving around the court? Or how the shoulder muscles should work when you are swinging?

Pronation is such a natural function that it is not the thing to concentrate on unless someone is really having some trouble with their coordination.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
I have no clue why this supination/pronation stuff keeps popping up. Are people having problems with allowing the body to do this naturally?

What I mean is, no one talks about how the arches of your feet should work when you are moving around the court? Or how the shoulder muscles should work when you are swinging?

Pronation is such a natural function that it is not the thing to concentrate on unless someone is really having some trouble with their coordination.
-shrug- I guess people think the wrist is an important part of sports. For example, wrist snap gives a lot of power in certain sports, while in tennis, the wrist isn't supposed to snap for a lot of strokes. So if it's not snapping, it's either solid, pronating or supinating. There have been articles written about the wrist factor in tennis.
 
The wrists main function in the groundstrokes is to make the racquet face flat for good contact, and effeciently transferring power from your body and arms into the hit.

Supination comes from the forearm.
Pronation comes from the forearm and then the shoulder.

My semi-western grip, I supinate through my stroke. It starts out flat like this "__" and then ends up open like this "O" -- It's a forearm rotation. It doesn't use my shoulders what-so-ever.

Functions with a semi-western forehand grip:
Wrist: Allowing racquet face to become open, and square with the ball from flat.
Forearm: To twist to allow supination.
Shoulders: To generate the swing path
Body: To generate the power.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
I am fine with your throwing analogies but stumbled over the above words.

Pronation and supination are not the sources of power. They are only a means of transferring kinetic energy efficiently. Stored energy primarily comes from the ground. Kinetic energy is energy in motion. Pronation/Supination is not where power comes from.

P and S are just descriptions of positions that occur during the swing. The throwing or swinging motion creates a rapid whipping motion when the forearm starts at pronation, then supinates, and then accelerates as it is going back to pronation. Add to this that the forearm movements are occuring on an arm (humerus) that is rapidly travelling forward at the same time. The power comes from the fact that going from P to S to P allows tremendous speed to develop efficiently. When you don't have this occuring then you get less racquet speed and won't have a great shot (Roddick's backhand for instance).

With one handed BH the opposite occurs and the sequence is S to P to S. That is how you get the whipping motion in a backhand.

Many people do this naturally; many don't do it at all. The classic example is a girl that can't throw a ball effectively because they start with their elbow out front, and prevent the whipping motion from occuring.
 
AngeloDS said:
My semi-western grip, I supinate through my stroke. It starts out flat like this "__" and then ends up open like this "O" -- .

I imagine your analysis of your swing is wrong, especially with a semi-western grip. Your power is probably coming as you go from supination to pronation. The supination is most likely when your racquet is pointed at the fence behind you.
 
You should not think about pronating on any other stroke unless you are having some real problems. Otherwise, pronation and supination happen naturally.

I think I have problems cause on my serve. I have to think about pronation. What I believe I was doing before is simply turning my wrist too early when it fact it should be done right before or at contact.

My coach was trying to show me how to do this last night and I am able to hit quite a bit harder with less effort. Though I don't quite how you can hit slice serves while pronating right at the contact point and I am not as consistent as I was before with my "turn the racquest so its a frying pan" serve.

You know I can throw a nice spiral so theortically I pronate with my throwing motion. But this pronating thing while holding a tennis racquet doesn't come natural to me at all. It doesn't for another guy I know as well who is working with the same coach.

Count me in the Jim McClennan/Heath Waters camp of actively teaching pronation. It's really helping my serve.

Pete
 
bkc said:
I have recently discovered that pronation/supination/pronation (psp) is the foundation of most, or all, strokes. But it is easier to think about, to begin with, in the model of just throwing a ball.
There is supinating when you throw a baseball, but many people are falsely led to believe that the serve motion is just like throwing a baseball. If you threw a baseball exactly like a serve with proper form, you'd throw like a little girl.
 
bkc said:
...The classic example is a girl that can't throw a ball effectively because they start with their elbow out front, and prevent the whipping motion from occuring.

Well I certainly understand my strokes. Unfortunately I don't agree with your response here. Taking your example above, the source of major power would be to get the shoulder more involved in the throwing of the ball. The girl has obviously shortened her length and time to generate sufficient arm speed (throwing from the elbow). Adding shoulder movement with an excellent range of motion will contribute more to power then pronation and supination.

Your example, indicates that you are wrong in another sense. If the arm were held still and the ball was in hand, pronating and supinating the arm would do nothing to generate HUGE sources or amounts of power as you incorrectly described. Placing the ball in her hand and just throwing the ball from her shoulder joint would generate more power!

The forearm does rotate rapidly in the acceleration phase of the serve. But the role of this pronation is to position the racquet head correctly in preparation for impact. It does not substantially contribute to racquet velocity.

Additionally, the role of the wrist does extend (extension) in the cocking phase (the so-called "backscratch" position with the sudden upward change in direction) and then rapidly flexes in the acceleration phase to what players call "snapping". The flexion in the wrist has been reported to be a major contributor to racquet head speed and power.

Using the whole body in a fluid and integrated manner is really the only way to improve the power in a serve (see my wave analogy). A good stroke production begins at your feet, flows up through your knees and legs, uses the hips and body weight and then allows the upper body and arms to stroke the ball. This is called the efficient use of all body parts in stroke production "the kinetic chain".

Braking mechanisms are also important to generate a quick source of stored power within a kinetic energy transfer. The stop and start motions of different body parts causes an acceleration of the latter. By the time energy reaches the arm a large amount of the energy coming through the arm is kinetic.

Flexibility and range of motion are two of the most important elements in generating and tranferring energy and far more contributing in generating power then pronation and supination.

Here is an article for you to read. The shoulder area and the ability to transfer flowing energy quickly through the body are the MAJOR SOURCES OF ENERGY.

==========================================================

Tennis


Biomechanics of High-Velocity Tennis Serves and Variations between Different Styles and Gender

Elliott B, Fleisig, R, Nicholls R, Escamilla R. Technique effects on upper limb loading in the tennis serve. Journal of Science and Medicine in Sports 6(1):76-87, 2003

Fleisig GS, Nicholls RL, Elliott BC, Escamilla RF. Kinematics used by world class tennis players to produce high-velocity serves. Sports Biomechanics 2(1):17-30, 2003

tennis1.jpg

Methods

Researchers from ASMI, the University of Western Australia, and Duke University worked together to study the high-velocity serve of elite tennis players. Singles matches were recorded at Centre Court of the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney, Australia. Two electronically-synchronized high-speed (200 pictures per second) cameras were used. Three-dimensional kinematics (motions) and kinetics (joint forces and torques) were calculated using manual digitization and inverse dynamics.

Results

High-quality data were calculated for 20 Olympic athletes (8 male and 12 female). One of the key features noticed was that the shoulder rotated back into an extreme position (172º). From this cocked position there was a coordinated rapid sequence of angular velocities of the upper torso (870º/s), pelvis (440º/s), elbow (1510º/s), wrist (1950º/s), and shoulder (2080º/s). At impact, the trunk was 48º above horizontal, the arm was abducted 102º and the elbow, wrist, and lead knee were slightly flexed. Compared to female players, males produced greater ball velocity (183 v. 149 km/hr), shoulder internal rotation velocity (2420 v. 1370 º/s), and later upper torso angular velocity (0.05 v. 0.07 seconds before ball impact). These differences may be related to the fact that male players produced greater internal rotation torque and proximal force about the shoulder.

Minimal differences were seen between the full and abbreviated backswing techniques. Compared to players with minimal knee flexion (6º), players with larger knee flexion (16º) produced similar ball speed but generated less shoulder internal rotation torque and elbow varus torque. Thus, larger knee flexion was a more effective technique than minimal knee flexion.



To achieve a high-velocity serve, a tennis player should utilize strength, flexibility, and technique training programs developed for motions and forces similar to those reported in this study. An understanding of serve mechanics may also help in the development of surgical and rehabilitative treatment procedures for shoulder and elbow injuries in tennis.
Copyright © 2000, American Sports Medicine Institute



October 05, 2004
 
Rickson said:
There is supinating when you throw a baseball, but many people are falsely led to believe that the serve motion is just like throwing a baseball. If you threw a baseball exactly like a serve with proper form, you'd throw like a little girl.
I don't see at all how this could be. Can you explain?
 
Bungalo Bill said:
If the arm were held still and the ball was in hand, pronating and supinating the arm would do nothing to generate HUGE sources or amounts of power as you incorrectly described.

It seems like when I compare, while sitting in this chair, the two methods, one with forearm rotation, the other without rotation, and in both just throwing from the elbow, that the the one with rotation seems to approximately double the speed that your thumb is travelling. If you had a racquet in your hand the speed would increase tremendously because the racquet rotates in your hand and the head of the racquet has a long way to travel.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
..., the source of major power would be to get the shoulder more involved in the throwing of the ball. The girl has obviously shortened her length and time to generate sufficient arm speed (throwing from the elbow). Adding shoulder movement with an excellent range of motion will contribute...
This is certainly, also, very true.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
The forearm does rotate rapidly in the acceleration phase of the serve. But the role of this pronation is to position the racquet head correctly in preparation for impact. It does not substantially contribute to racquet velocity.
If it causes the racquet head to have to travel a further distance, this will increase velocity.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
Additionally, the role of the wrist does extend (extension) in the cocking phase (the so-called "backscratch" position with the sudden upward change in direction) and then rapidly flexes in the acceleration phase to what players call "snapping". The flexion in the wrist has been reported to be a major contributor to racquet head speed and power.
This may be so.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
One of the key features noticed was that the shoulder rotated back into an extreme position (172º). At impact, the trunk was 48º above horizontal, the arm was abducted 102º and the elbow, wrist, and lead knee were slightly flexed.

Wonder how some of these angles were defined in this article:

- shoulder rotated back at 172º: is that the angle from the upper arm and the frontal part of the torso?

- the arm was adducted 102º? measured wrt what?
 
Bungalo Bill said:
Using the whole body in a fluid and integrated manner is really the only way to improve the power in a serve (see my wave analogy). A good stroke production begins at your feet, flows up through your knees and legs, uses the hips and body weight and then allows the upper body and arms to stroke the ball. This is called the efficient use of all body parts in stroke production "the kinetic chain".

Braking mechanisms are also important to generate a quick source of stored power within a kinetic energy transfer. The stop and start motions of different body parts causes an acceleration of the latter. By the time energy reaches the arm a large amount of the energy coming through the arm is kinetic.
Amen

Flexibility and range of motion are two of the most important elements in generating and tranferring energy and far more contributing in generating power then pronation and supination.
As I said, it seems like forearm rotation is a major factor in increasing the distance, range of motion, that the racquet head has to travel.

Here is an article for you to read. The shoulder area and the ability to transfer flowing energy quickly through the body are the MAJOR SOURCES OF ENERGY.
Good article
 
bkc said:
Amen

As I said, it seems like forearm rotation is a major factor in increasing the distance, range of motion, that the racquet head has to travel.

Good article

BKC, I think we are getting our terms mixed up. Pronation of the forearm has no real added power benefit to the serve. It simply allows the racket to square properly at contact.

I think what you are referring to is INTERNAL ROTATION. Internal rotation is happening at the shoulder joint - not the forearm. The more a player is flexible and can increase their range of motion in the racket drop etc., the longer the racket will travel towards the ball and more speed can be developed.

If a player adopts an abbreviated serve motion, they will have to recruit a tad bit more muscle to get the racket going. The racket head speed generated in either the abbreviated motion and the normal "trophy" motion, is limited by how a player can absorb and use energy through their entire body and the range of motion in the shoulder joint.

The forearm pronation is really not the source or cause of power but internal rotation at the shoulder joint is. The majority of a players serving power comes from sending energy into this area, letting it store again very breifly, and then releasing again up to the ball.

I think this is what you are trying to say. Let me know if it is not.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
BKC, I think we are getting our terms mixed up. Pronation of the forearm has no real added power benefit to the serve. It simply allows the racket to square properly at contact...I think what you are referring to is INTERNAL ROTATION. Internal rotation is happening at the shoulder joint - not the forearm... The forearm pronation is really not the source or cause of power but internal rotation at the shoulder joint is.
I think this is what you are trying to say. Let me know if it is not.
It is not. :D Going from supination to pronation (or vice versa) is forearm rotation around a longitudinal axis. As I said earlier, this rotation therefore causes the racquet to rotate and the head then travels a further distance. You also have rotation occuring at the shoulder, which also rotates the racquet head. These two rotations are compounded and that is what creates a whipping motion. I suppose there is another rotation created by the elbow straightening.

I don't disagree with the models you have presented, but I think this forearm rotation is also an essential, and often misunderstood, part of the swing. I think the reason it is not understood is because the further out on the arm you get, the movements are faster and more difficult to observe. Just as it would be difficult to describe the motions that occur at the end of a bullwhip.
 
bkc said:
It is not. :D Going from supination to pronation (or vice versa) is forearm rotation around a longitudinal axis. As I said earlier, this rotation therefore causes the racquet to rotate and the head then travels a further distance. You also have rotation occuring at the shoulder, which also rotates the racquet head. These two rotations are compounded and that is what creates a whipping motion. I suppose there is another rotation created by the elbow straightening.

You are missing some huge factors such as the role of the elbow which has nothing to do with how the forearm supinates and pronates. It is the internal rotation of the shoulder and its range of motion that contributes the most power on the serve.

Please quit trying to sell the forearm pronation thing. This has been documented and studied by people way more qualified then you. The arm works in a loose manner - there is NO LOADING IN THE FOREARM!!!!

A loose arm is thrusted towards the ball and it is allowed to work naturally to square the racket face. IT IS NOT THE SOURCE OF POWER.

I don't disagree with the models you have presented, but I think this forearm rotation is also an essential, and often misunderstood, part of the swing.

Often misunderstood? By whom? People who know a lot more about biomechanics then you? What an arrogant person you are to have facts in front of you yet you still want to hold on to this pronation/supination thing.

I think the reason it is not understood is because the further out on the arm you get, the movements are faster and more difficult to observe. Just as it would be difficult to describe the motions that occur at the end of a bullwhip.

You think? Everyone knows a loose arm and good extension will transfer ppower to the ball. But your claim is that it is a source of energy. What gets the arm moving quickly is range of motion in the shoulder and an effective use of the kinetic chain starting from the ground.

The arm is a means of tranferring the energy to the ball. Hell, the rotational flexion in the wrist provides more power then the area you are harping about.

Please before you mislead hundreds of people, do some homework before "thinking" you are right.
 
bkc said:
I don't see at all how this could be. Can you explain?
I used to play baseball and had a pretty good throwing arm. The throwing motion of a baseball has mild similarities to the serve form, but if you threw a ball with a serve motion, the throw would be very uncoordinated like an elementary school aged girl's throw. There is no real pronation in a baseball throw while a serve has very pronounced pronation. Throwing a football is much more like serving than throwing a baseball.
 
Rickson said:
I used to play baseball and had a pretty good throwing arm. The throwing motion of a baseball has mild similarities to the serve form, but if you threw a ball with a serve motion, the throw would be very uncoordinated like an elementary school aged girl's throw. There is no real pronation in a baseball throw while a serve has very pronounced pronation. Throwing a football is much more like serving than throwing a baseball.
But, doesen't the palm of the hand face the direction of the batter when the ball leaves your hand? Isn't that pronation? When you windup, when you lead with the elbow, your palm is facing your ear, then when your elbow extends and the ball leaves the hand, the palm is facing the batter no?
 
Bungalo Bill said:
!!!!

A loose arm is thrusted towards the ball and it is allowed to work naturally to square the racket face. IT IS NOT THE SOURCE OF POWER.
I'm not saying the forearm is a major source of power. The power comes from the various areas you have mentioned. The power is transferred thru the forearm,as you say, in the form of kinetic energy. The forearm rotation helps this to occur.
 
bkc said:
I'm not saying the forearm is a major source of power. The power comes from the various areas you have mentioned. The power is transferred thru the forearm,as you say, in the form of kinetic energy. The forearm rotation helps this to occur.

Then we are in agreement.
 
Rickson said:
There is no real pronation in a baseball throw while a serve has very pronounced pronation.
I don't see that. It's all about pronation I think. (Or maybe more accurately, it's all about forearm rotation around the longitudinal axis)
 
POGO said:
But, doesen't the palm of the hand face the direction of the batter when the ball leaves your hand? Isn't that pronation?
I think so too
When you windup, when you lead with the elbow, your palm is facing your ear,...
Supination.
... then when your elbow extends and the ball leaves the hand, the palm is facing the batter no?
Pronation.
 
bkc said:
I don't see that. It's all about pronation I think. (Or maybe more accurately, it's all about forearm rotation around the longitudinal axis)
Next time you throw a baseball, throw it exactly the same way you serve. You'll have a horrible looking throw with that motion.
 
Rickson said:
Next time you throw a baseball, throw it exactly the same way you serve. You'll have a horrible looking throw with that motion.
I wouldn't throw the exact same way but just in the aspect of both throws involving the same kind of rotation of the forearm, and I've already done that.
 
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