Supination during FH

When you want to hit a topspin FH the approach of the racquet towards the ball is lead by the top edge of the racquet as you swing from low to high right?

My question is about supination during the FH swing after the initial take back. If you are supposed to pre-supinate your forearm before so that you can get a much stronger and complete pronation on the finish, how is it possible to maintain a slightly closed face of the racquet (or even perpendicular face to the ground) at contact without using anything other than a western grip?

Seems to me using an eastern grip (and maybe even semi western), with full supination along the forward swing path would open the racquet face up as the racquet length is approximately parallel with the ground at contact.

What am I missing?
 

paulfreda

Hall of Fame
Seems to me that ..... IF ..... one wants to pronate thru a FH groundstroke, the face ... MUST ... be open just before contact.

If that were not true, how can the ball get over the net with a closed face and a forearm pronating [turning CCW] ??
A pronating forearm will cause the face to close even more.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Swing is from low to high, so a barely closed racketface will still hit the ball OVER then net. A flat swing, no.
Don't supinate consciously. RELAX your wrist on the takeback and start of the forward loop. That does everything you need.
 
Swing is from low to high, so a barely closed racketface will still hit the ball OVER then net. A flat swing, no.
Don't supinate consciously. RELAX your wrist on the takeback and start of the forward loop. That does everything you need.

Yes I understand the supination should come about passively due to a loose arm, but my question is how is it possible for the racquet face to square or slightly closed at contact if you are using an eastern/SW grip if the passive supination naturally opens the racquet face?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You know your followthru wraps around your body, fully closing the face.
Somewhere in between, it's correct at the hitting zone if you practice your forehands.
 
You know your followthru wraps around your body, fully closing the face.
Somewhere in between, it's correct at the hitting zone if you practice your forehands.

So you're saying the pronation component of the FH must begin BEFORE contact. Wow, that would be very hard to time an exact square/closed face right before contact.
 
Seems to me the western grip is the only grip that even with maximal passive supination during the forward stroke, would still keep the racquet face square to the ball.
 

BevelDevil

Hall of Fame
So you're saying the pronation component of the FH must begin BEFORE contact. Wow, that would be very hard to time an exact square/closed face right before contact.

It comes naturally with practice. Also, this is one reason why a consistent contact point is good.
 

paulfreda

Hall of Fame
Well Federer suppinates on his FH and he clearly does not use a Western grip. It is much closer to Eastern.
As Lee said, the strings do not need to be parallel to the net if the swing path is low to high.
 
Well Federer suppinates on his FH and he clearly does not use a Western grip. It is much closer to Eastern.
As Lee said, the strings do not need to be parallel to the net if the swing path is low to high.

But Federer's racquet face is not parallel or open at contact. It is in fact closed as revealed by high speed video. So I wonder if Federer does in fact maximally supinate, but rather he appears to use more ulnar deviation. But I'm not sure.
 
It comes naturally with practice. Also, this is one reason why a consistent contact point is good.

So are you confirming that that is what is supposed to happen? That all good pros begin pronation before contact is made such that the racquet face is more or less slightly closed at contact.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Instead of all this mental anguish over HOW and WHY, why not go out on the court, hit some 85 mph flattish forehands with a little topspin?
DO, don't speculate.
Just copy Nalbandian's forehand.
You will never learn to hit a forehand thinking about the hows and whys of the mechanics, but you will learn how to hit a good forehand by practicing and hitting lots of tennis balls.
 
Instead of all this mental anguish over HOW and WHY, why not go out on the court, hit some 85 mph flattish forehands with a little topspin?
DO, don't speculate.
Just copy Nalbandian's forehand.
You will never learn to hit a forehand thinking about the hows and whys of the mechanics, but you will learn how to hit a good forehand by practicing and hitting lots of tennis balls.

I did try it. But I don't think I'm getting enough spin. I'm trying all of the relaxing, loose everything, etc, not with great success. But that's actually a separate issue.

My OP was simply a thought question that appeared to be an unresolved contradiction in my head, i.e. the advocation of closed face at contact vs. pre-supination opening up the face. The initiation of pronation before contact occurs can resolve the contradiction, unless there is something else I'm missing.
 

julian

Hall of Fame
A decent blog to read

When you want to hit a topspin FH the approach of the racquet towards the ball is lead by the top edge of the racquet as you swing from low to high right?

My question is about supination during the FH swing after the initial take back. If you are supposed to pre-supinate your forearm before so that you can get a much stronger and complete pronation on the finish, how is it possible to maintain a slightly closed face of the racquet (or even perpendicular face to the ground) at contact without using anything other than a western grip?

Seems to me using an eastern grip (and maybe even semi western), with full supination along the forward swing path would open the racquet face up as the racquet length is approximately parallel with the ground at contact.

What am I missing?

A decent blog to read is
blog.tennisspeed.com
Probably
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-6.html
is the most important for your post
 
A decent blog to read is
blog.tennisspeed.com
Probably
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-6.html
is the most important for your post

I actually have read that blog and it is partly the reason why I came up with this question. But that blog is very wordy, and I'm still really not sure as to the exactly mechanics going from the pronated take back (ala Federer and others), to passive supination resulting from loose arm to followup pronation through the contact point.

Here are the key points in that blog which I don't fully understand.

"The “natural motion” of the racquet arm in a tennis forehand naturally causes the racquet hand to supinate – meaning the palm of the hand will open toward the sky as you swing forward to impact. Therefore, if you don’t compensate for the hand supination by intentionally pronating the hand – pointing your palm downward toward the ground – your hand will deliver the racquet face in an open position at impact."

AND

"In other words, when players pronate their racquet hand just before they start their forward swing, their pronated racquet hand position enables them to control the natural supination of the racquet hand (and arm) during the forward swing and control the angle of the racquet face as it approaches impact."

I guess the question is, whether you begin pronated or not on the take back, if you are arm is loose than passive supination should open up the racquet face no matter where you begin, no? i.e. if you begin supinated, it stays supinated to as far back as your forearm can naturally supinate. And if you being pronated, then the loose arm will again supinate as far back as your forearm can naturally supinate, resulting in no difference between the two cases. So what am I missing?

Is it simply a matter of TIME? i.e. that the forward swing has a certain time length, and within that time length if you begin pronated, then there simply isn't enough time to passively supinate to the maximum extent?
 
^^^In other words, I'm saying pre-pronation on the take back would not properly compensate for the passive supination from the forward swing, and it seems to me the only real compensation can be provided by a Western grip.
 

julian

Hall of Fame
It is more complex

^^^In other words, I'm saying pre-pronation on the take back would not properly compensate for the passive supination from the forward swing, and it seems to me the only real compensation can be provided by a Western grip.
It is more complex than you are describing.
I tend to agree that Western and Semi-Western grips are best possible candidates.
There are FOUR possible sources of info:
1.blogs by tennisspeed
2.two articles by Brian Gordon and two possible follow up articles by Macci
3.milenium forehand description by Heath Waters
4.posts by the user of this forum SystemicAnomaly

Let me make couple of comments about these sources of info
I believe Heath Waters made some of resources available for free
His description is available somewhere through tennisone.com
but I believe tennisone is a paid subscription site
 
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julian

Hall of Fame
Please ask Mr SystemicAnomaly

Your quote
----->
Is it simply a matter of TIME? i.e. that the forward swing has a certain time length, and within that time length if you begin pronated, then there simply isn't enough time to passively supinate to the maximum extent?
----> the end of the quote

I am trying to find the answer last THREE MONTHS
Mr SystemicAnomaly is the better source
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Swing is from low to high, so a barely closed racketface will still hit the ball OVER then net. A flat swing, no.
Don't supinate consciously. RELAX your wrist on the takeback and start of the forward loop. That does everything you need.

Good and simple ^^^

Wrist lays a wee bit back as you start your forward swing. Racket is slightly closed. Well after contact, the wrist can roll into a WW follow-thru but just keep the wrist relaxed and don't force anything in the contact area. Slightly closed racket face and upward swing path.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Your quote
----->
Is it simply a matter of TIME? i.e. that the forward swing has a certain time length, and within that time length if you begin pronated, then there simply isn't enough time to passively supinate to the maximum extent?
----> the end of the quote

I am trying to find the answer last THREE MONTHS
Mr SystemicAnomaly is the better source


Isn't the answer very obvious? You'll need to do everything faster. :)
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
When you want to hit a topspin FH the approach of the racquet towards the ball is lead by the top edge of the racquet as you swing from low to high right?

My question is about supination during the FH swing after the initial take back. If you are supposed to pre-supinate your forearm before so that you can get a much stronger and complete pronation on the finish, how is it possible to maintain a slightly closed face of the racquet (or even perpendicular face to the ground) at contact without using anything other than a western grip?

Seems to me using an eastern grip (and maybe even semi western), with full supination along the forward swing path would open the racquet face up as the racquet length is approximately parallel with the ground at contact.

What am I missing?

The suppination occurs as a result of a loose and relaxed arm, wrist and grip and occurs when you start your hip drive to start your forward turn. The butt of the racquet should be facing the ball before contact. The top edge of the racquet should be slightly tilted toward the right side fence (if you're a righty).
 
The suppination occurs as a result of a loose and relaxed arm, wrist and grip and occurs when you start your hip drive to start your forward turn. The butt of the racquet should be facing the ball before contact. The top edge of the racquet should be slightly tilted toward the right side fence (if you're a righty).

Ok, I understand that. But where is the top edge of the racquet tilted at contact? If it it slightly tilted towards the ball (i.e. closed racquet fact), how is this possible with a fully supinated forearm? The fully supinated forearm will prevent the closed face at contact, no?
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
the arm is not 'fully supinated'. just supinated. the muscles are stretched when this happens (if loose) and they 'snap' back turning your forearm in a pronated position.
 
the arm is not 'fully supinated'. just supinated. the muscles are stretched when this happens (if loose) and they 'snap' back turning your forearm in a pronated position.

Ok thank you, I think that clarifies things. I thought full supination was important for imparting maximum whipping pronation, but just some supination with a slightly closed racquet face at contact is ideal.
 
the arm is not 'fully supinated'. just supinated. the muscles are stretched when this happens (if loose) and they 'snap' back turning your forearm in a pronated position.

Sorry, one more point. If the arm is truly loose during the forward swing, then why doesn't it become fully supinated?
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
The palm should be facing down on take back. the wrist is in a neutral position at this point. not c0cked back, not flexed, not held at an extreme angle to look cool. should be as loose as can be. basically just floating there barely holding on the racquet. if it's tight here everything is lost.

forearm drops down. not pushed down. dropped due to gravity. loose.
leg pushes up, hips turn, butt of racquet is pulled towards the ball. forearm will automatically supinate, stretch and quickly pronate on it's own (unless you interfere w/ the process by arming it, being tight, improper setup prior to this point, thinking too much, not following the above steps etc). it can't fully supinate unless there is pressure on your arm (thumb?) going down. which there isn't because you are pushing up, rotating and pulling the racquet up and towards the ball quickly.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Ok, I understand that. But where is the top edge of the racquet tilted at contact? If it it slightly tilted towards the ball (i.e. closed racquet fact), how is this possible with a fully supinated forearm? The fully supinated forearm will prevent the closed face at contact, no?

By the time contact occurs, the arm has begun to pronate from its fully suppinated position.
 

Greg G

Professional
The palm should be facing down on take back. the wrist is in a neutral position at this point. not c0cked back, not flexed, not held at an extreme angle to look cool. should be as loose as can be. basically just floating there barely holding on the racquet. if it's tight here everything is lost.

Arg, this is me! I realized this week that the issue is that during the takeback, my wrist is cocked and the forearm is slightly supinated, and it drops this way. It does not allow a fully relaxed wrist. This promotes an 'arming' motion. The Murray videos helped me understand that part, and this description you typed clicked in my head. :shock:
 

julian

Hall of Fame
Please read about trajectory

When you want to hit a topspin FH the approach of the racquet towards the ball is lead by the top edge of the racquet as you swing from low to high right?

My question is about supination during the FH swing after the initial take back. If you are supposed to pre-supinate your forearm before so that you can get a much stronger and complete pronation on the finish, how is it possible to maintain a slightly closed face of the racquet (or even perpendicular face to the ground) at contact without using anything other than a western grip?

Seems to me using an eastern grip (and maybe even semi western), with full supination along the forward swing path would open the racquet face up as the racquet length is approximately parallel with the ground at contact.

What am I missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLzbvR3Xr4
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=434069
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Your quote
----->
Is it simply a matter of TIME? i.e. that the forward swing has a certain time length, and within that time length if you begin pronated, then there simply isn't enough time to passively supinate to the maximum extent?
----> the end of the quote

I am trying to find the answer last THREE MONTHS
Mr SystemicAnomaly is the better source

Sorry, have not had time to look at this. Dealing with some health issues (not my own). Will try to take a gander in the next day or two.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
So are you confirming that that is what is supposed to happen? That all good pros begin pronation before contact is made such that the racquet face is more or less slightly closed at contact.

Pronation begins before contact, but, pronation does not cause the racquet face to close. Your racquet face should point toward the target from before contact to well after contact until your chest turns past 12 O'Clock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4

Having said that, this is NOT something you should try to do purposely. It is the natural result of good technique and a loose, relaxed arm and grip.
 

DrpShot!

Semi-Pro
I've read the blog and tried to pronate the palm down at the end of the take back. I have trouble with it though, I just don't know the right metal check points and the timing is tough. Also dealing with high kickers is difficult, I almost have to go back to supinating the hand.
 
This was a great read. Like OP I also wonder about this subject. I often wonder if I am oversupinating on the start of the swing and if this is causing me to lose control on the forehand. Also, as OP states, I don't understand how it's possible to keep a slightly closed racket face on impact while having the wrist loose and allowing it to supinate naturally at the start of the swingpath. Since I use a SW grip and the angle at contact is almost perpendicular to the ground, using an eastern or continental grip the angle at contact point is slightly open if I let the wrist supinate naturally, so if using an open grip one would have to restrict how much the wrist supinates at the start, which would mean not letting it naturally occur but stopping the supination at some point.
 

Dragy

Legend
This was a great read. Like OP I also wonder about this subject. I often wonder if I am oversupinating on the start of the swing and if this is causing me to lose control on the forehand. Also, as OP states, I don't understand how it's possible to keep a slightly closed racket face on impact while having the wrist loose and allowing it to supinate naturally at the start of the swingpath. Since I use a SW grip and the angle at contact is almost perpendicular to the ground, using an eastern or continental grip the angle at contact point is slightly open if I let the wrist supinate naturally, so if using an open grip one would have to restrict how much the wrist supinates at the start, which would mean not letting it naturally occur but stopping the supination at some point.
Somewhere before the contact arm goes from its externally rotated position into internal rotation. Which raises racquet head up and ensures racquet face to have proper orientation at contact.
Also consider that players are not hitting the ball at the same location with different grips. More closed grips go for farther in-front contact, while more open grips favor less extreme forward, more to-the-side contact. It all gets settled.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
When you want to hit a topspin FH the approach of the racquet towards the ball is lead by the top edge of the racquet as you swing from low to high right?

My question is about supination during the FH swing after the initial take back. If you are supposed to pre-supinate your forearm before so that you can get a much stronger and complete pronation on the finish, how is it possible to maintain a slightly closed face of the racquet (or even perpendicular face to the ground) at contact without using anything other than a western grip?

Seems to me using an eastern grip (and maybe even semi western), with full supination along the forward swing path would open the racquet face up as the racquet length is approximately parallel with the ground at contact.

What am I missing?

"What are you missing?"

EVERYTHING!

Stop copying ATP technique! You're already paying a price for this.

J
 

Mountain Ghost

Professional
WTA and REC players ... NO supination or pronation throughout(*) ... elbow "Pointed DOWN" (and racquet face remains vertical) on backswing ... and ... on forward swing to Contact. On follow through ... WTA may pronate(*) ... but not advised for REC players.

ATP players ... pronation on backswing ... supination at the end of the takeback to Racquet-Back Position ... elbow "Pointed DOWN" (and racquet face vertical) on forward swing to Contact. Apparent pronation at Contact Zone should NOT be emulated by any but the BEST players. It is actually the result of a deceleration of enormous forward momentum. Better to keep the racquet face pretty much vertical on follow through for most.

~ MG
 

Dragy

Legend
Better to keep the racquet face pretty much vertical on follow through for most.
To keep RF vertical on a typical low-to-high swing one needs to internally rotate the arm. If one keeps elbow down into past-contact extension, RF will open. Some can live with it - using Western grip or having rather back (old-school) contact. But more efficient is to rotate the arm into extension.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
WTA and REC players ... NO supination or pronation throughout(*) ... elbow "Pointed DOWN" (and racquet face remains vertical) on backswing ... and ... on forward swing to Contact. On follow through ... WTA may pronate(*) ... but not advised for REC players.

ATP players ... pronation on backswing ... supination at the end of the takeback to Racquet-Back Position ... elbow "Pointed DOWN" (and racquet face vertical) on forward swing to Contact. Apparent pronation at Contact Zone should NOT be emulated by any but the BEST players. It is actually the result of a deceleration of enormous forward momentum. Better to keep the racquet face pretty much vertical on follow through for most.

~ MG

Better to not copy this level of tennis until you're ready. By the sound of things, everyone trying to figure this out, you're not ready.

But what do I know. :p

J
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
To keep RF vertical on a typical low-to-high swing one needs to internally rotate the arm. If one keeps elbow down into past-contact extension, RF will open. Some can live with it - using Western grip or having rather back (old-school) contact. But more efficient is to rotate the arm into extension.

Got some wrist pains yesterday (and by reading this lol) and I was worried about a relaxed wrist and your internally arm rotation, but I've worked out a bit with a chest extender (elastic bands) and all seems back to normal.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
Got some wrist pains yesterday (and by reading this lol) and I was worried about a relaxed wrist and your internally arm rotation, but I've worked out a bit with a chest extender (elastic bands) and all seems back to normal.

If you are using wrist you will continue to have issues. Which will be more frequent and worse.

J
 

Dragy

Legend
Got some wrist pains yesterday (and by reading this lol) and I was worried about a relaxed wrist and your internally arm rotation, but I've worked out a bit with a chest extender (elastic bands) and all seems back to normal.
Well what I never got was wrist pain. Internal rotation is what brings into this extension position:
2020-09-12T002857Z_1465869976_NOCID_RTRMADP_3_TENNIS-US-OPEN.jpg

It's not some process you control and gauge coming through contact.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Well what I never got was wrist pain. Internal rotation is what brings into this extension position:
2020-09-12T002857Z_1465869976_NOCID_RTRMADP_3_TENNIS-US-OPEN.jpg

It's not some process you control and gauge coming through contact.

a) I'm probably older than you and I neglected working out with weights and elastic bands/chest expander, but only for the core...
b) I agree that you can't control and that's exactly why I was a tad concerned about the lose wrist and internal rotation. All good, thanks!
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
Well what I never got was wrist pain. Internal rotation is what brings into this extension position:
2020-09-12T002857Z_1465869976_NOCID_RTRMADP_3_TENNIS-US-OPEN.jpg

It's not some process you control and gauge coming through contact.


Wishful thinking if you really believe you'll ever hit this kind of advanced technique for any given length of time.
 
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