Suzanne lenglen serve

[dominikk1985]

Great super slow mo footage from 1920s

Go to about 2:10

Seems a pretty modern arm action albeit she doesn't use the legs a lot. But has good racket drop, big L and internal rotation.

 

[Dragy]

Wait for @oserver to come and claim "See! I told you serve stagnated with no evolution while the whole game raced into the future!"

Also Bill Tilden's film shows similarly great serve instruction at 7:00. Seems serve wasn't held back by the equipment, among other factors.

 

[Enga]

The Bill Tilden film helped me a lot to fix my service. When I started, I was trying too much complicated stuff. The film helped me to realize I need to start from the basics, and keep it very simple. To be fair I probably could have learned to do that from any modern pro instructional video but the Bill Tilden one just happened to be the one that got through to me.

 

[Shroud]

Wait for @oserver to come and claim "See! I told you serve stagnated with no evolution while the whole game raced into the future!"

Also Bill Tilden's film shows similarly great serve instruction at 7:00. Seems serve wasn't held back by the equipment, among other factors.

Kiteboard exploded

 

[Dragy]

Kiteboard exploded

Well I understand his reasoning against Tilden, but only go to illustrate and support OP regarding how serve was understood and performed well back in years.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Great super slow mo footage from 1920s

Go to about 2:10

Seems a pretty modern arm action albeit she doesn't use the legs a lot. But has good racket drop, big L and internal rotation.

That is a great video find.

This is an example of little ISR prior to impact and inadequate changing angle between the forearm and racket seen from the front or behind view. It appears as if the racket gets to face the ball mostly by pronation instead of ISR.

I base the lack of ISR interpretation on looking at the shadows at the elbow and seeing some ISR but not strong and fast rotation. The elbow "shadows" are not very sharp more of a concave area in the crook of the elbow. The elbow shows ISR after impact.


Serve speed measurement.

The simplest way to measure velocity is to measure the distance moved in a known time. I made a measurement of the serve speed using the stated 160 fps frame rate and the tennis ball's diameter to calibrate distance.
1) used the tossed tennis ball before impact as a computer screen distance calibration. 2.7" average ball measured 5.5 mm on my computer screen (3:03 of video). Calibration of that video on my screen was 0.49"/mm. For measuring the ball's motion over 3 frames (3:04 + 1 frame to 3 frames), I found it worked well to place a Post It note on my screen and make a pencil mark where the center of the motion blurred ball appeared. Don't press on your screen with the pencil. In 3 frames the ball moved about 52 mm on my screen or 25.5" in real space of the serve.
2) Assumed the camera frame rate was 160 fps as stated. For three frame times that is 0.01875 second.
Distance traveled = V x t
25.5" = V x 0.01875 sec
V = 25.5" / 0.01875 sec
V = 1360"/ sec.
converting to MPH
V = 77 MPH

Note- this technique depends on viewing the ball's trajectory from approximately a right angle, square on. But errors of, say, 10 d result in very small errors where the real speed is about 1 % higher.

I've posted more detailed posts on using the camera frame rate and the tennis ball's diameter for measuring stroke speed. Be glad to answer questions for anyone that wants to measure ball speed.

 

[Chas Tennis]

One thing to look for on a serve is the upper arm rotation, internal shoulder rotation. That is not easy to see. It cannot be seen properly at 30 fps, one frame every 33 milliseconds, because ISR, start to impact, occurs very fast, over about 30 milliseconds. With 30 fps you really are doing guess work as to what happened.

But you might get an idea of the upper arm rotation by looking at the shadows of the elbow. That won't work if the video is out of focus or the server is too small as in your video. Also, the lighting has to cast shadows of the bones in the elbow. If the sun is behind the server like yours or overcast it does not show elbow shadows to the camera. A tape marker can be placed just above the elbow to show the upper arm rotate. ISR might show better from the view behind the server looking along the ball's trajectory.

Also, some other useful serve angles show better from behind the server. The camera looking along the court center line is not the same as looking along the ball's trajectory.

For similar comments on camera viewpoints for serve videos-
Search: camera behind Chas

Gerald Paterson serving in slow motion. 1919. The arm rotation can be seen because the shadows, focus and camera viewpoint are favorable.

You can see some shadows at the elbow that can give some indication of whether the upper arm (between the elbow and shoulder joint) is rotating. You also need a very fast shutter to avoid motion blur.

Gerald Paterson was known as a very strong serve and was called 'The Human Catapult'.

Gerald Paterson in 1919, known as the Human Catapult. Strong, crisp ISR. Look at the elbow shadows spin, 28-29 sec.

 

[NLBwell]

That is a great video find.

This is an example of little ISR prior to impact and inadequate changing angle between the forearm and racket seen from the front or behind view. It appears as if the racket gets to face the ball mostly by pronation instead of ISR.

I base the lack of ISR interpretation on looking at the shadows at the elbow and seeing some ISR but not strong and fast rotation. The elbow "shadows" are not very sharp more of a concave area in the crook of the elbow. The elbow shows ISR after impact.


Serve speed measurement.

The simplest way to measure velocity is to measure the distance moved in a known time. I made a measurement of the serve speed using the stated 160 fps frame rate and the tennis ball's diameter to calibrate distance.
1) used the tossed tennis ball before impact as a computer screen distance calibration. 2.7" average ball measured 5.5 mm on my computer screen (3:03 of video). Calibration of that video on my screen was 0.49"/mm. For measuring the ball's motion over 3 frames (3:04 + 1 frame to 3 frames), I found it worked well to place a Post It note on my screen and make a pencil mark where the center of the motion blurred ball appeared. Don't press on your screen with the pencil. In 3 frames the ball moved about 52 mm on my screen or 25.5" in real space of the serve.
2) Assumed the camera frame rate was 160 fps as stated. For three frame times that is 0.01875 second.
Distance traveled = V x t
25.5" = V x 0.01875 sec
V = 25.5" / 0.01875 sec
V = 1360"/ sec.
converting to MPH
V = 77 MPH

Note- this technique depends on viewing the ball's trajectory from approximately a right angle, square on. But errors of, say, 10 d result in very small errors where the real speed is about 1 % higher.

I've posted more detailed posts on using the camera frame rate and the tennis ball's diameter for measuring stroke speed. Be glad to answer questions for anyone that wants to measure ball speed.

Remember the film has been converted to video, so I'm not sure the 160fps is valid. You have 24frames/second film (when viewed) converted to ~30fps NTSC or 25fps PAL (or possibly something different if direct to high-def) video. Also, ball diameters vary and of course, you can't measure it completely accurately.
That said, I don't know that your velocity is way off - looks pretty reasonable in the points that were played.

I was impressed by Pathe's work in putting the film on video. So often, old film gives the movement a jerky look that makes the players' movement look strange and slow. This was very fluid and you could see what a great natural athlete she was - as good as any modern player. Playing in a time where there were relatively few excellent women athletes, you can see why she completely dominated the game.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Remember the film has been converted to video, so I'm not sure the 160fps is valid. You have 24frames/second film (when viewed) converted to ~30fps NTSC or 25fps PAL (or possibly something different if direct to high-def) video. Also, ball diameters vary and of course, you can't measure it completely accurately.
.

Ball diameter by ITF specs today.

According to the International Tennis Federation, an 'official' tennis ball must have a diameter between 2.57 inches and 2.70 inches.

Average diameter balls
(2.57+ 2.70) / 2 = 2.635"

Assume average diameter of 2.635" then legal balls will fall within +/- 2.4 % of 2.635".
That is a small error but the balls may have had different diameters in 1925. ?

ITF History -

"Size

Diameter and mass are the oldest ball specifications, having been in the Rules of Tennis since 1880. Although it would appear to be an easy task, accurate and repeatable measurement of ball diameter is difficult.


Whether a ball is of an appropriate size is determined using two ring gauges in a “go/no-go” manner. A ball must pass through the larger one under its own weight, but not through the smaller one. Each ball is rotated on the gauges to check its concentricity.


The internal diameters of the ring gauges are calibrated to +/- 0.0064 cm and the two rings are calibrated to the acceptable range for ball diameter (6.54 cm to 6.86 cm respectively for a Type 2 ball). This specification last changed in 1966 (from 2.575-2.675 inches)."

The ball was made of rubber and pressurized in the late 1800s.

If you measured your own serve you could identify the ball and use that diameter. Or, more accurately place a scale, in the video aligned with the ball's trajectory. This could be done before or after the serve as long as the camera has not been moved.

My measurement over 4 frames at 52 mm on my screen is probably pretty good. +/- 2 mm +/- 4 %

The frame rate of the camera can be timed from gravity when a tossed ball is at its peak in the video. The ball rising and falling will give a signature for 160 fps, 100 fps, 30 fps, etc. If all original film frames are included and the peak of the toss is seen it might be feasible to extract some serve speed estimates from old high speed films. I don't know video compression and frame rate changing techniques used on the original high speed film recordings, 160 fps stated on the current video. The camera may have even been a hand cranked camera but probably not as they stated the original film frame rate as 160 fps. The Gerald Paterson video shows the ball peak.

The ball is a calibration object that is always there in the right place, perfectly aligned and easy to measure.

 

[10 iS_fun]

What athletecism by Ms.Lenglen. Some of the shots were played like todays badminton. She is more like a ballerina , fluid on the court. Look at her overhead volley going backwards , her leg reaches out higher that her profile. Nice video

 

[Chas Tennis]

Biography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Lenglen

 

[ChaelAZ]

Not much has changed, amazingly.

I have posted a TON of pics of Lenglen ebcause of what an incredible athlete she was. Exactly what @10 iS_fun mentions.

 

[comeback]

How strong must she be to yield that heavy stick with a huge wooden handle?? (looks like no grip) WOW

 

[Chas Tennis]

Not much has changed, amazingly.

I have posted a TON of pics of Lenglen ebcause of what an incredible athlete she was. Exactly what @10 iS_fun mentions.

It seems as if a lot has changed in the biomechanics of ladies tennis stroke techniques.

 

[Raul_SJ]

It looks like she does not use the off arm at all on her backhand.
Lets go very early.

 

[RetroSpin]

Most of you would kill for her backhand. She clearly has copied Warinka's open chest technique.

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are very few one hand backhands left among the current ladies.

Justine Henin.

For men and women, there is open issue of which of two one hand backhand techniques is better. Both can produce high level results. One uses observed closeness between the chest and upper arm during initial uppermost body acceleration and then shoulder acceleration and movement forward of the upper arm before impact. The other technique uses more shoulder muscle in the initial acceleration and the uppermost body can also turn, but there is not prolonged chest to upper arm contact for upper arm acceleration.

Most of you would kill for her backhand. She clearly has copied Warinka's open chest technique.

Lenglen does not have the superior one hand backhand technique that Justine Henin has. There's less shoulder turn and no contact between the upper arm and chest. Henin's technique appears to be the same as Gasquet's and Wawrinka's.

Videos of the one hand backhand are simpler and the above observations are easy to see.

What is Wawrinka's open chest technique?

How is the word 'open' defined in your tennis usage?

I only use "open" and "closed' to mean the top edge of the racket is more forward (=closed) than the bottom edge or more behind (=open). My definition and usage relates to the vertical, a very important direction for clearing the net and keeping the ball in the court.

I am never clear on what is meant for other usage of 'open' on this forum.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Seems a pretty modern arm action albeit she doesn't use the legs a lot. But has good racket drop, big L and internal rotation.

In that era, you had to keep one foot on the ground on the serve. So they all served with less leg action.