*** SW & Heavier ball ***

anirut

Legend
This may sound stupid, but ...

How can a racket with 15 grams more weight in butt cap area & along the grip, 3 pts more HL, and strung 3-4 pounds tighter, hits significantly heavier/more impacting shots?

I welcome explanations in scientific terms too. (Trav, where are you?)

The reason I ask is because my cousin said that my Black Ace hits heavier balls than the Redondo but the ball speed is lower. He said he could feel the impact of the ball hit from the BA much more than the Redondo.

(I know, the BA is stiffer too, but only by just about 5-6 RDC units.)

Thanks.
 

andreas75

New User
theresmore mass;anyway if its in the handle.There mass (weights) transforms in cinetik energy i think..

The main thing is to move all that mass quick also.
Theres where the real challenge is(same way u used to move the lighter raquet)
 

obnoxious2

Semi-Pro
The 15 more grams in the butt accounts for the headlightness making you able to swing the racquet faster with more ease. Giving the ball more spin and making it feel heavier. Though heavy balls aren't heavy without pace.
 
Spin is increased due to several factors:

1) Adding mass to the butt will shorten the balance point enough to soften the impact. The impact is softened because the impact point is farther from the balance point, so that the ball has more leverage at impact. The softer impact will have longer dwell time, resulting in more spin. The increased spin will cause your balls to land shorter.

2) Adding mass to the butt increases your swingspeed. Your racquet-arm system has a natural swingspeed governed by the equation for the frequency of a physical pendulum. Adding mass near the pivot point of a pendulum increases it's frequency.

3) Adding mass to the butt counterbalances the mass of the head, making it easier to swing upward against gravity.
 

baek57

Professional
The 15 more grams in the butt accounts for the headlightness making you able to swing the racquet faster with more ease. Giving the ball more spin and making it feel heavier. Though heavy balls aren't heavy without pace.
adding weight to the handle does not decrease swingweight (for more headspeed), it makes the racquet heavier. a heavier racquet has more force which creates a heavier ball.
 

Return_Ace

Professional
I'm not sure many people actually aren't quite making sense =/

Although travelrajm's post seems very interesting it seems I'll have to read more into it because i'm not awake and it's not sticking.

However:

adding weight to the handle does not decrease swingweight (for more headspeed), it makes the racquet heavier. a heavier racquet has more force which creates a heavier ball.
That's not what he said... He said you should be able to swing a more headlight racket faster...

I'd say possibly since apart from the aded inherent weight, a more headlight racket will "feel" lighter than a head-heavier version since most of the mass is concentrated in your hand (on the pivot point) as opposed to nearer the head where it has more of a moment.

the racquet will have more mass with more weight anywhere.

e=mc^2 and V=IR *****es.
Yes, that's true..

Apart from those last two equations which are a load of b*ll*cks and have nothing to do with the thread :roll:

Rest energy and Voltage = Current x Resisatance ? :rolleyes:

theresmore mass;anyway if its in the handle.There mass (weights) transforms in cinetik energy i think..

The main thing is to move all that mass quick also.
Theres where the real challenge is(same way u used to move the lighter raquet)
Technically what you're saying is right, since a heavier racket when swung at the same speed means it has higher momentum.

Since the weight of the ball is constant, the conservation of momentum means in turn the ball is travelling faster (hence kinetic energy).

Although according to anirut the ball was travelling slower so it's like :?.

------

Not that this actually answers your question anirut.. i was just more commenting on the other answers =/.
 

baek57

Professional
That's not what he said... He said you should be able to swing a more headlight racket faster...
i know what he said, and he is wrong. you can swing a more headlight racquet faster because it will have a lower swingweight. however, adding mass to the butt of a racquet to make it more headlight will not decrease the swingweight. adding mass anywhere on the racquet will increase the swingweight. if you increase swingweight, you will not increase racquet head speed, period.
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
"Heavy ball" is a subjective term. I believe it takes a balance and combination of depth, spin, and pace to give this impression.
 

anirut

Legend
Just in case my question was a little hard to grasp ...

The situation:

- The Black Ace is heavier, just a few points more HL and strung higher.

- I swung the Redondo and Black Ace equally as fast, ripping FLATS from my baseline. (OK, there's a little spin in it from the follow through.)

- Both rackets delivered balls a few feet inside the baseline on the other side.

- The returner commented that he felt that the ball from the Black Ace was slower but had higher impact than those hit from the Redondo. He said his racket could easily twist receiving balls from the Black Ace.

What I don't understand is that how would a racket that's a few point stiffer, having higher weight, swung equally fast, more HL, strung even tighter, deliver more impacting balls?

If both rackets had everything the same except for the racket weight, I would understand. But this case has the tighter string and being more HL in the equation.

So ... is it a result of the higher SW (due to higher weight in the handle zone) of the Black Ace?
 
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obnoxious2

Semi-Pro
i know what he said, and he is wrong. you can swing a more headlight racquet faster because it will have a lower swingweight. however, adding mass to the butt of a racquet to make it more headlight will not decrease the swingweight. adding mass anywhere on the racquet will increase the swingweight. if you increase swingweight, you will not increase racquet head speed, period.
Wow are you ********? Swingweight and racquet weight are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Adding weight in the butt will increase racquet weight but not swingweight. Swingweight only goes up if you add weight anywhere above the middle balance point. So adding 2 grams of weight at 12 as opposed to 1 gram each at 9 and 3, the racquet with the 2 grams at 12 will have a HIGHER SWINGWEIGHT yet both racquets will have the SAME RACQUET WEIGHT.
 
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KFwinds

Professional
Wow are you ********? Swingweight and racquet weight are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Adding weight in the butt will increase racquet weight but not swingweight. Swingweight only goes up if you add weight anywhere above the middle balance point. So adding 2 grams of weight at 12 as opposed to 1 gram each at 9 and 3, the racquet with the 2 grams at 12 will have a HIGHER SWINGWEIGHT yet both racquets will have the SAME RACQUET WEIGHT.
Actually, he is correct; if you add weight ANYWHERE on the frame - including the handle or butt - the swingweight will increase. The only difference will be in the perception of the user, i.e. we tend to notice the weight more if it's added to the head.
 

Agent Orynge

Professional
If I recall correctly, swingweight (as it's measured by the machine) is actually calculated from a point a few inches from the butt of the racquet. That would basically mean that weight added to the very bottom of the racquet does not affect swingweight.
 

EricW

Professional
Actually, he is correct; if you add weight ANYWHERE on the frame - including the handle or butt - the swingweight will increase. The only difference will be in the perception of the user, i.e. we tend to notice the weight more if it's added to the head.
Swing-weight increase from added weight to the butt is negligible. Therefore we tend to say it doesn't increase at all.
 

gsharma

Professional
Adding weight to the racquet is going to increase the perceived weight of the racquet where the center of mass is. In scientific terms, when measuring swingweight, you are swinging the racquet through an axis of rotation which is about 4 inches (I don't recall the actual number) from the butt. Even at that axis, the mass at the center of mass/gravity is heavier for a heavier racquet.
 

baek57

Professional
Wow are you ********? Swingweight and racquet weight are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Adding weight in the butt will increase racquet weight but not swingweight. Swingweight only goes up if you add weight anywhere above the middle balance point. So adding 2 grams of weight at 12 as opposed to 1 gram each at 9 and 3, the racquet with the 2 grams at 12 will have a HIGHER SWINGWEIGHT yet both racquets will have the SAME RACQUET WEIGHT.
add 5 lbs to the butt and tell me swingweight doesnt increase before calling other people ********, ******.
 

Return_Ace

Professional
add 5 lbs to the butt and tell me swingweight doesnt increase before calling other people ********, ******.
Completely agree with you here.. was gonna make a similar comment lol...

However Eric is also right in that swingweight in the buttcap has less effect and so can be taken as a neglible increase (as long as we're not talking stupid amounts of weights).

And @ "Obnoxious"... it's not actually anything above the mid balance point, it anything that's not where your hand is gripping... since it's a moment and weight anywhere that's not at the fulcrum (in this case - your grip on the racket) makes a difference.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
add 5 lbs to the butt and tell me swingweight doesnt increase before calling other people ********, ******.
Completely agree with you here.. was gonna make a similar comment lol...

However Eric is also right in that swingweight in the buttcap has less effect and so can be taken as a neglible increase (as long as we're not talking stupid amounts of weights).

And @ "Obnoxious"... it's not actually anything above the mid balance point, it anything that's not where your hand is gripping... since it's a moment and weight anywhere that's not at the fulcrum (in this case - your grip on the racket) makes a difference.
I will occasionally use this same technique when attempting to figure out or solve certain math problems or physics situations (using a generalization).

Basically, you grossly exaggerate one variable (in this case, adding an additional 5 lbs. to the butt cap) and apply the results to the situation at hand (adding a few grams to the butt cap) since the effect will be the same (swingweight higher). The only difference is the magnitude of the effect (grams-perhaps negligible... 5 lbs.-definitely feel it!)

However, in this case... were talking mere grams (7 to 8 grams since he split the weight of 15 grams total between the butt cap and the throat)... and although the swingweight may increase... someone above mentioned that the increase is insignificant, since the SW is measured approximately 4" from the butt of the racquet (in other words, near the top of your hand as it grips the racquet).

So, the question is... can a human being perceive a swingweight difference on a 12 oz. racquet if 8 grams of lead are added to the butt cap. Also, from anyone who has experience measuring SW, what would the difference be on a Redondo, since we know the specs? Would the swingweight increase be along the lines of something small like 320 to 322. If so, it may be worth adding additional plow-through weight to the handle and buttcap of many racquets.
 
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El Guapo

Semi-Pro
Spin is increased due to several factors:

1) Adding mass to the butt will shorten the balance point enough to soften the impact. The impact is softened because the impact point is farther from the balance point, so that the ball has more leverage at impact. The softer impact will have longer dwell time, resulting in more spin. The increased spin will cause your balls to land shorter.

2) Adding mass to the butt increases your swingspeed. Your racquet-arm system has a natural swingspeed governed by the equation for the frequency of a physical pendulum. Adding mass near the pivot point of a pendulum increases it's frequency.

3) Adding mass to the butt counterbalances the mass of the head, making it easier to swing upward against gravity.
Nope. 1 is correct but both 2 and 3 are 100% wrong.

2. Adding mass ANYWHERE decreases swingspeed. Do you have any idea how far from the pivot point (your shoulder) the butt of a racquet is?

3. Your theory would only be accurate if the following were true:
- your arm remains stationary and you can only move your wrist to hit the ball
- you grip the handle so high up and add a ton of weight to the butt of the racquet

Adding weight is ADDING WEIGHT, no matter where it is located. Different locations have different effects but it will never make a racquet easier to swing or easier to swing against gravity.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
This may sound stupid, but ...

How can a racket with 15 grams more weight in butt cap area & along the grip, 3 pts more HL, and strung 3-4 pounds tighter, hits significantly heavier/more impacting shots?

I welcome explanations in scientific terms too. (Trav, where are you?)

The reason I ask is because my cousin said that my Black Ace hits heavier balls than the Redondo but the ball speed is lower. He said he could feel the impact of the ball hit from the BA much more than the Redondo.

(I know, the BA is stiffer too, but only by just about 5-6 RDC units.)

Thanks.
Here are some possible explanations:

Although you may think your swingspeed is identical hitting with both racquets... it probably isn't. One racquet may feel much better in your hands (for one reason or another) and therefore your form/stroke is just naturally better (resulting in a better ball).

Some racquets flex more in the hoop... some more in the throat, etc. So, depending on where the location of max flex is on those two racquets... that will affect the resulting ball characteristics.

Is your friend a tennis physics expert? Do you really trust his judgment when he tells you that this (1st racquet) feels slightly different than that (2nd racquet)? People's perceptions and judgments are often clouded for many reasons.

I've often handed people two different racquets (different types-not the same model) that are significantly different in weight (1-2 oz.) and often they think the lighter racquet is actually heavier than the racquet that weighs more. The funnny thing is... I agree (that's why I asked them in the first place - to see if it was just my perception).

For example, I asked a friend to look at two of my racquets, mentioning racquet weight, offhandedly - so they maintain awareness of it. I hand them a POG OS (12.8 oz) and then a Rossignol Strato woodie (14.2 oz).

Then, I ask which felt heavier... as I need a racquet that's not too heavy or it may hurt my arm. It's always the Prince that feels heavier even though its nearly 1.5 oz. lighter. They don't believe me and ask to hold them both again. Even after knowing... they still feel the POG is the heavier racquet. They only 'buy' it when I throw them both on the scale and show them the woodie is 1.5 oz. heavier. The funny thing is... I too think the POG feels heavier (even today). I've done this with a number of racquet pairs and friends. It's an odd phenomenon, but it's often unknown intangibles that affect our judgment.
 
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volleyman

Semi-Pro
2. Adding mass ANYWHERE decreases swingspeed.
Not entirely true.

Adding mass to a racquet increases the effort necessary to maintain the same swing speed. Assuming you have sufficient strength, adding 15 grams to your racquet handle won't slow your swing.

Now, how long you can maintain the increased effort level required to maintain your preferred swing speed is another matter. :)
 

anirut

Legend
^
^
Thanks, Bud.

My friend wasn't playing the rackets -- he was receiving the punishment at the other end of the court. And, such that, he was able to comment on the heaviness of the shots.

I couldn't feel the difference, except for the softness of the Redondo. The Black Ace may be more detrimental, more ball-crushing machine, but the Redondo is very addictive ... that "catch and release" feel.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
^
^
Thanks, Bud.

My friend wasn't playing the rackets -- he was receiving the punishment at the other end of the court. And, such that, he was able to comment on the heaviness of the shots.

I couldn't feel the difference, except for the softness of the Redondo. The Black Ace may be more detrimental, more ball-crushing machine, but the Redondo is very addictive ... that "catch and release" feel.
I agree. I'm also thinking of switching back to the Redondo, from the AG100. But, everytime... I keep returning to the Aerogel. Perhaps Aerogel is an addictive substance, like nicotine :lol:
 

El Guapo

Semi-Pro
Not entirely true.

Adding mass to a racquet increases the effort necessary to maintain the same swing speed. Assuming you have sufficient strength, adding 15 grams to your racquet handle won't slow your swing.

Now, how long you can maintain the increased effort level required to maintain your preferred swing speed is another matter. :)
Obviously. In that case, why bother even adding lead, just swing harder. LOL
 

anirut

Legend
I agree. I'm also thinking of switching back to the Redondo, from the AG100. But, everytime... I keep returning to the Aerogel. Perhaps Aerogel is an addictive substance, like nicotine :lol:
Thank God I sold off the AG100 quickly enough! Otherwise I'll be getting extra doses of nicotine in addition to my daily cigarettes!! :lol:
 

matchmaker

Hall of Fame
^
^
Thanks, Bud.

My friend wasn't playing the rackets -- he was receiving the punishment at the other end of the court. And, such that, he was able to comment on the heaviness of the shots.

I couldn't feel the difference, except for the softness of the Redondo. The Black Ace may be more detrimental, more ball-crushing machine, but the Redondo is very addictive ... that "catch and release" feel.
Well, I think that pretty much says it all. The Redondo is a very nice frame but it does not hit heavy balls.

The Black Ace is unknown to me but the added stiffness and maybe different weight distribution, which is not entirely the same as balance (two racquets can have the same balance but still a different weight distribution), can result in a heavier ball.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Nope. 1 is correct but both 2 and 3 are 100% wrong.

2. Adding mass ANYWHERE decreases swingspeed. Do you have any idea how far from the pivot point (your shoulder) the butt of a racquet is?

3. Your theory would only be accurate if the following were true:
- your arm remains stationary and you can only move your wrist to hit the ball
- you grip the handle so high up and add a ton of weight to the butt of the racquet

Adding weight is ADDING WEIGHT, no matter where it is located. Different locations have different effects but it will never make a racquet easier to swing or easier to swing against gravity.
That sounds correct to me. Adding mass anywhere increases swingweight.

For two racquets, you could have a heavier and more headlight racquet swing faster than the other. But for a given racquet, adding weight anywhere will make it more difficult to swing.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
- The returner commented that he felt that the ball from the Black Ace was slower but had higher impact than those hit from the Redondo. He said his racket could easily twist receiving balls from the Black Ace.
That can mean only one thing (assuming the trajectories were more or less the same) - the ball had more spin.
 

El Guapo

Semi-Pro
That sounds correct to me. Adding mass anywhere increases swingweight.

For two racquets, you could have a heavier and more headlight racquet swing faster than the other. But for a given racquet, adding weight anywhere will make it more difficult to swing.
Correct. Tennis racquets also follow the laws of the physical universe.
 

Anton

Legend
Just in case my question was a little hard to grasp ...

The situation:

- The Black Ace is heavier, just a few points more HL and strung higher.

- I swung the Redondo and Black Ace equally as fast, ripping FLATS from my baseline. (OK, there's a little spin in it from the follow through.)

- Both rackets delivered balls a few feet inside the baseline on the other side.

- The returner commented that he felt that the ball from the Black Ace was slower but had higher impact than those hit from the Redondo. He said his racket could easily twist receiving balls from the Black Ace.

What I don't understand is that how would a racket that's a few point stiffer, having higher weight, swung equally fast, more HL, strung even tighter, deliver more impacting balls?

If both rackets had everything the same except for the racket weight, I would understand. But this case has the tighter string and being more HL in the equation.

So ... is it a result of the higher SW (due to higher weight in the handle zone) of the Black Ace?
1. Black ace was stiffer, so that would provide a bit more power.
2. While the weight and the balance maybe the same, the weight distribution may still vary
3. You may have been hitting differently as a response to different racket feel or just had your "ups and downs"
 
Not entirely true.

Adding mass to a racquet increases the effort necessary to maintain the same swing speed. Assuming you have sufficient strength, adding 15 grams to your racquet handle won't slow your swing.

Now, how long you can maintain the increased effort level required to maintain your preferred swing speed is another matter. :)
Haha, now people are picking others apart. What you said is true though.

Everyone has a max swingspeed. Let's say that I was able to swing a 3 ounce (with SW of 80 kg(cm)^) racquet at 40 MPH max. Now who is to say that I would not be able to swing a 10 ounce (with SW of 320 kg(cm)^) frame at the same velocity of 40 MPH? Afterall, what matters is that as long as I have the muscle strength to be able to "handle" that extra mass in static and swing weight, then I should be able to swing it as fast.

So you are right, it depends on the individual. The other poster was just speaking in general terms, however (I'm sure we all know that).
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Obviously. In that case, why bother even adding lead, just swing harder. LOL
because everyone has a maximum swingspeed. the pros use heavy racquets because, naturally, they swing at the maximum they can, or usually around 80 % of what they can, during rallies. if you take a 10 oz racquet, and swing it at given speed, x, and swing a 12 or 13 oz racquet at the same speed, the heavier racquet will have a higher value for kinetic momentum, resulting in more ''plow through'' effect, causing more spin to be applied to the ball, which in addition to the pace being placed on it, results in a heavier ball.

plus, swinging 'hard' isnt what does it. i can swing more freely with a 12 oz racquet than i can with a 10 oz, just because that's what i'm used to. if i play with a 10 oz frame, i will have my timing off, and wont feel in control of the ball. in addition, when i hit the ball, the 10 oz racquet will 'give' more, because it is less stable, which prevents me from returning a ball with sufficient weight to my opponent.
 
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