Swiatek awarded point for double bounce
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Connor35
Professional
This is demonstrably not true.
First, Rennae Stubbs & Caroline Wozniacki *both* said on the TV telecast Iga probably couldn't tell.
Second, as players, when we KNOW it bounced twice, we're always right.
BUT when we think we got it up, do you KNOW you're always right? We have no video replay at the club.
That's the difference, it's sensitivity vs. specificity in terms of a diagnostic test.
When you feel it bounced twice, it almost certainly did.
When you think you made the shot (as Iga seemed to), do you KNOW you truly did? No you don't.
placebo
Rookie
Linked in the original post
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Lol. Since Wozniacki, Stubbs and Laura Robson, all professional athletes, 2 that are former slam champions said she probably didn’t feel it and you can’t always tell as professionals on the court, I’m going to side with them instead of you sitting watching from your couch with a billion replays.
“so tired” of you people just assuming what Iga did from home.
Westerwick
Rookie
One of the first lessons I learned on being a (soccer) referee in a stadium with a big screen and instant replay is to never look at the stadium screen. The replay operators have cameras, cameras, more cameras, slow motion and can display things I couldn't possibly have seen. We have specific rules about what sorts of plays are eligible for video review, when they can be reviewed and what calls I can change. NCAA has been tweaking this for years now, and every year our rule book and certification tests have a few more changes.
The chair umpire cannot just ignore her rules and decide that she can in this case institute a video review, so was obligated to rule as she did. Saying that, the rule requiring the player to stop play in the middle of a long point to contest a call is just plain stupid. There would be no harm done to the game if the rule was changed to request a review after a point and before going on to the next point.
The chair umpire cannot just ignore her rules and decide that she can in this case institute a video review, so was obligated to rule as she did. Saying that, the rule requiring the player to stop play in the middle of a long point to contest a call is just plain stupid. There would be no harm done to the game if the rule was changed to request a review after a point and before going on to the next point.
But that has been the rule forever before automatic hawkeye calls were implemented. For years players had 3 challenges, and to use them they had to stop the point to challenge. They're was never a case were a point would be reversed after the video was shown if the player did not actually stopped and challenged.
This is again one of those pointless discussions. Navarro had the right to stop the play and challenge. She did not. End of story. It does not matter if there's was a double bounce or not once the point was played to completion. Anyone is free to think the rules going ng forward could be different but as of today everything was according to rules.
This is again one of those pointless discussions. Navarro had the right to stop the play and challenge. She did not. End of story. It does not matter if there's was a double bounce or not once the point was played to completion. Anyone is free to think the rules going ng forward could be different but as of today everything was according to rules.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
This is a good point.
We have three senses to know if we did a hit off a double bounce - vision, sound and vibration feel. Often you are not looking at the contact point with the ball when this happens by your feet - this seems to be the case from the pic with Iga looking up. You usually can hear the sound of the double bounce - but if your racquet scrapes the ground around the same time as the double bounce, the racquet sound can obscure the sound of the ball hitting the ground twice. Lastly, you have the ‘feel’ of whether you hit it cleanly or after a double bounce and this is usually obvious to the player, but I guess can have some uncertainty.
If you didn’t hear it or see it, but you ‘felt’ it with some doubt in an unofficiated match like all rec matches, the honorable thing to do is to call it in favor of your opponent. But if it is an officiated pro match and a player has some doubt about the ‘feel’ while not seeing it and having the sound muffled by their racquet hitting the ground, what should they do? If they have no doubt and ‘felt’ it, saw it, heard it, I do think they should call it even if the umpire doesn’t. But if they didn’t see or hear it and have some doubt about the feel, should they carry on since there is an umpire present to make the right call?
I‘ve always wondered about obligations of a player in an officiated match vs an unofficiated match when there is some doubt about what exactly happened.
In Rune VS Berettinni match umpire actually called double bounce. Rune challenged, the video showed no double bounce, and the point was replayed. To the much of aggrevation from Berettinni since he easily put away the shot that was ruled double bounce, so if not for the umpire stopping the play he would have won the point. And luck had it he lost the replayed point.
Of course it's now easy to blame the empire: why did she call double bounce? She should have leave it to Berettinni he wanted to challenge.... That's what umpires did in Świątek case. But now it's: how could she not stop the play and call double bounce.....
Of course it's now easy to blame the empire: why did she call double bounce? She should have leave it to Berettinni he wanted to challenge.... That's what umpires did in Świątek case. But now it's: how could she not stop the play and call double bounce.....
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The umpire should always call what they think they saw. If there is some doubt in their mind, they should be conservative about stopping the point with a call. Umpires are human and will make errors in what they see just like linespeople and players do. Even technology like Hawkeye has a margin of error on linecalls and is not going to 100% match high speed video evidence of where exactly a ball landed especially if you can see it in slow motion.
It makes sense to give the umpire the power to use video replays to check a call even after a point is over if they have some doubt in their mind. Players should also be allowed to challenge close calls after a point is over rather than having to stop a point to challenge. Many sports have this rule where the video evidence is evaluated by an umpire after a play or a sequence of plays is completed.
Connor35
Professional
I’ve been in this situation in a close play where an opponent said “did you get that up?”
When I legitimately thought I did. I’ve said “I’m sure I did. But if you clearly saw it bounce twice I’ll concede the point.”
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
In an unofficiated match where we make our own calls, the rules are clear and the etiquette is clear in giving the benefit of doubt to opponents if you have any doubt on a call you are about to make. But I don’t know how it works in an officiated match when you have some doubt as there is an umpire to be the final arbitrator/judge of decisions. Of course, if you are sure you lost a point, etiquette demands you concede the point.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Aren’t challenges typically of the “Hawkeye” variety, where the outcome is either a clear “IN” or “OUT”? I’ve yet to see challenges effectively applied to other game situations.
Westerwick
Rookie
Yes, but those sports also have a set of rules that determine if and when a replay can be used to change a call. Those aren't as well known or understood by most fans, but are just as important in determining the outcome of a call.
Service Ace
Hall of Fame
Lol. Since Wozniacki, Stubbs and Laura Robson, all professional athletes, 2 that are former slam champions said she probably didn’t feel it and you can’t always tell as professionals on the court, I’m going to side with them instead of you sitting watching from your couch with a billion replays.
It would save you a lot of typing just to say you’ve never played tennis before. I’ve come to learn that it seems to be those that lack the common sense that comes from experience who are the first to defer to appeals to authority like you both have done by no sheer coincidence hmmm. But like Felix said to Draper, when you’ve hit hundreds of thousands of tennis balls in your life, you know when you’ve hit the ball off a double bounce, it’s as unmistakable as any other mishit.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
I was a 4.0 player, captain of my high school tennis team, and played in college. It would save you a lot of typing not to be condescending to people you know nothing about. Also, Wozniacki, Stubbs and Robson have played more tennis than you and have the opposite opinion.
RSJfan
Hall of Fame
I propose that posters should be able to challenge any TTW posts that aren’t certified. Maybe with a limit of 5 challenges per 24 hour period. And you should be able to make prospective challenges and group them. For example, I’d like to challenge the next 5 posts made by Dr Raul.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
I’ll remind you to actually read what was said next time since you clearly didn’t. Because I gave you the names of 3 professional athletes including 2 slam champions who said Iga probably didn’t know. I think I trust Caroline Wozniacki and Laura Robson’s tennis knowledge over yours LMAO.
Next time don’t be so condescending.
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Im not a huge fan of Iga. I was until she walked off the court against Collins a couple years ago when getting her but kicked. Total BS.
However, I am not gonna crucify her over this one. To me it's being made a bigger deal than It actually is. ( Like everything now a days).
I will say I have no clue why you have to put it on the player to stop a point. That makes no sense to me. But oh well.
However, I am not gonna crucify her over this one. To me it's being made a bigger deal than It actually is. ( Like everything now a days).
I will say I have no clue why you have to put it on the player to stop a point. That makes no sense to me. But oh well.
Chris Wilson
Rookie
Federer was on both sides of the double bounce controversy. He claimed to have hit a ball off one bounce against Murray when it clearly bounced twice on super slow replay. The reality is that the player does NOT know when it is this close -- all you "internet coaches" need to check the ego.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
I don’t even think that person played that much. I trust Wozniacki, Stubbs and Robson over some forumer lol.
Absolutely agree that umpires should make calls as they see them. Which they did in both Świątek and Rune matches.
That certainly could be the rule - but it really doesn't matter now as it is not the rule currently.
Sure. And many sports have rules where certain calls cannot be reviewed ever. Or when only calls at the end of the game are reviewable. Again, does not really matter, wta/atp rules are what they are and they were applied correctly.
Ooohh, that's Gold! Was that before or after that famous Federer tirade when he was essentially pretending to have PhD in ball spin and trajectory and lecturing umpire on how easy it is to tell double bounce from the way a ball ricocheted off the racket? And I actually like Federer....
It's also interesting that all those folks calling out Iga for not conceding the point say nothing about Navarro not admitting to touching the net when she returned Iga's shot on that very point. Surely she knew she touched the net (which umpire also missed), no? Since it is so easy to see now in slow motion....
OK, to be fair, you are talking about TTW members that can detect 1 gram difference in two rackets weight, or 0.5 swing weight, or 0.25 pounds of string tension difference. We are talking superhumans here, with eagle eye vision. Former professional players are no match for those abilities. Not to mention that it is clearly a stretch to call Robson an accomplished player in the first place
This is a video review, not a in/out decision.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Of course it is.
ratherlosethanpush
Rookie
Looked like he got it as it bounced I'd say it was a double bounce. Good post, not seen that.
There the hard ones though and the spin thoughts he says would be interesting as it should apply.
Not very close to the iga situation though. Bouncing about 3 inches before, the ball weight going up onto her strings not coming down would be felt on the racket.
Edit: the federer vid vs berdych appears misreported.
He wasn't arguing a double bounce he was arguing the ball was hit down into the court by berdych onto his own side first which is where the spin arguments apply.
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Purestriker
Legend
I think we need video review on suresh's line calls and double bounces. Zero chance he is getting to those shots in time.
inflation_era
Professional
I thought it was kinda hard to spot at regular speed especially from above where the ump would be.
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
It is unfortunate that one of the best players in the WTA tour is so disliked by many.
She played by the rule - perhaps a ‘broken’ rule. Eva Asderaki is supposed to be one of the widely respected umpire, but of course she's human and made errors. It's probably not that easy to see balls "right under your chairs/nose"; balls farther away may in fact be easier to judge.
We will never know whether Iga genuinely believed that she didn't hit a double-bounce or it was just due to her competitive nature. IMO, it’s just not in her nature to concede points.
One can be competitive yet still have better sportsmanship than what she’s been showing.
She played by the rule - perhaps a ‘broken’ rule. Eva Asderaki is supposed to be one of the widely respected umpire, but of course she's human and made errors. It's probably not that easy to see balls "right under your chairs/nose"; balls farther away may in fact be easier to judge.
We will never know whether Iga genuinely believed that she didn't hit a double-bounce or it was just due to her competitive nature. IMO, it’s just not in her nature to concede points.
One can be competitive yet still have better sportsmanship than what she’s been showing.
Connor35
Professional
Were you watching? The stadium music was still playing and the chair had not called play yet. Plus it obviously didnt affect Maddie.
I swear all of you are so sensitive.
Move
Hall of Fame
Connor35
Professional
My bad. I'd read elsewhere time had not been called.
The stadium was still loud.
I can admit when Im wrong. Thanks for posting.
Westerwick
Rookie
I view that as Karmic Justice. The Tennis Gods will always exact their revenge.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
from yesterday, another Iga double bounce. Yastemska won the point, but can't believe the umpire missed this.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
This and the PED ban and the hand-waving...it's all too much and there's no contradictory evidence
pabletion
Hall of Fame
That one is a terrible chair ump.... seen so many misses on her part!
I stand by Iga.... sometmes you cant be 100% sure wether you got it b4 a double or not, and you'll wait for the ump to make the call.
If Yamstrenska had missef her shot it wouldve been TERRIBLE (I think she wouldve been denied video replay bc she played it, right?).
canta_Brian
Hall of Fame
If you’re any good. I can’t always tell
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Yeah no video replay if you continue to play the point.
Shaolin
Talk Tennis Guru
Such a blatant cheater.
Then when this came out her response was something like ''it was a nervous habit.''
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
Technically that controversy during the Yastremska match is not a "double bounce", but after Iga's racquet, it hit the ground first before the ball returned to Yastremska. It's still a point loss for Iga. AFAIK she has never voluntarily conceded a point against herself.
She's just a super competitive person with no sportsmanship. Ironically, her idol who's also a super competitive player who hates to lose (which Pro doesn't), is known for quite a few sportsmanship gestures.
She's just a super competitive person with no sportsmanship. Ironically, her idol who's also a super competitive player who hates to lose (which Pro doesn't), is known for quite a few sportsmanship gestures.
BallisticMissileFonseca
Semi-Pro
Can't wait for Ostapenko to give her another sound beating.
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Hate players who maltreat ballkids!
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