swing path and direction control

tonygao

Rookie
Hi,

I have been thinking about the relationship between swing path and ball direction. as we all know, for FH we hit outside of the ball for cross-court, middle for down-the-line and inside for a inside-out. but in order to hit different sides of the ball, do we also need to change the swing path? or we just need to adjust the body alignment against the contact point and maintain the same swing path? I ask this question because sometimes when I try to hit a sharp angle cross court shot, very often the ball tends to go into the net and I feel I need to swing a bit steeper to lift the ball more than a shot with less sharp angle.

please let me know what you think.
 
Racket face angle dictates where the ball goes. You can hit any shot from any stance as long as the racket face angle at contact is different. If your short angles are going into the net, your racket face is too closed.
 

tonygao

Rookie
Racket face angle dictates where the ball goes. You can hit any shot from any stance as long as the racket face angle at contact is different. If your short angles are going into the net, your racket face is too closed.

yes, that's what I was talking about. I feel if I try to face the racquet towards a sharp angle, the racquet face tends to be a bit closed at contact point, which means I need to adjust the swing path more up, or adjust my wrist/forearm to make the racquet face perpendicular to the ball at contact point.
 
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GoudX

Professional
Sharp CC is a very tough shot, because the net is blocking the path of the ball entirely if you hit it flat. You still need to swing up and out over the net, or you will net a lot of shots, however you need to do something to make the ball drop afterwards.

To hit a big shot at a sharp angle CC you need to hit upwards with an awful lot of topspin, and rely on the excessive topspin to make the ball leap down into the court.

An easier, and more sensible, approach for your average player is to take some pace off and place the ball, relying on the placement to do the damage rather than pace.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
If the racket is stationary it tend to be angle of incidence equals angle of reflection, maybe with some adjustment because the strings stretch. Very similar to light reflecting from a mirror
https://www.google.com/search?q=ang...lILLo0wGL6YGIAg&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1099&bih=670

The racket patch for the current forehand climbs at a very steep angle and is slightly closed at first contact. Thread with some detail -
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483709&highlight=toly+federer+forehand

It is often claimed that the impact at 4 milliseconds for the racket to change during impact. I have not seen credible information to back this up especially for off center hits.

I tended to overestimate the importance of my swing path and underestimate the importance of the angle on my racket face. I hit many fewer out balls when I became aware of hitting the outer side of the ball.

If you are dumping in the net you probably are loosing racket head speed in the direction through the ball and/or increasing topspin or your racket face is too closed.

To determine what you are doing use a high speed video camera on the impact and observe the racket face angle and patch of the racket face. Also see if you are hitting low on the racket strings and the racket is turning. To see the racket path and ball near/at impact requires high speed video.


For example,
446685164_640.jpg

https://vimeo.com/63687035

To do stop action single frame on Vimeo hold SHIFT KEY & use RIGHT or LEFT ARROWS.

Notice how much his racket face moves up in just one fame of this video taken at 240 fps. Also, the closed racket face. Of course, there is a lot of racket head speed on these high level forehands.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
It varies from 1 to 5 ms according to tests

There are several variables also, racket speed & direction, string tension, etc.

A contact time of just 1 millisecond seems very short. Any idea of how rare it is or conditions when it occurs?

If you find any links that show the distributions of the contact times that might be very useful. Cross?
 

tonygao

Rookie
loosing racket head speed in the direction through the ball

I think this could be the reason and that's why I asked the question in the first place. when we try to hit outside of the ball to create a sharp angle cc, maybe due to body mechanics or something, I feel it's more difficult to hit through the ball in the intended direction.

here I put a diagram and apologize for my lousy drawing.

the two black circles are two feet, standing for open stance. green circle is the tennis ball and I hope the racquet is obvious. red arrow is the direction and swing path. for the CC shot on the right, it's more difficult to hit through the direction compared to the DTL shot on the left.
attachment.php
 
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mightyrick

Legend
Hi,

I have been thinking about the relationship between swing path and ball direction. as we all know, for FH we hit outside of the ball for cross-court, middle for down-the-line and inside for a inside-out. but in order to hit different sides of the ball, do we also need to change the swing path? or we just need to adjust the body alignment against the contact point and maintain the same swing path? I ask this question because sometimes when I try to hit a sharp angle cross court shot, very often the ball tends to go into the net and I feel I need to swing a bit steeper to lift the ball more than a shot with less sharp angle.

please let me know what you think.

I've never thought about changing ball direction in these terms. I just make contact earlier or later. If I miss wide, I'll almost always yell at myself, "TOO EARLY!" or "TOO LATE!".

Most times when I miss wide, it is because the opponent gave me a ball that was either slower or faster pace than I expected. This causes my timing to be incorrect.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
When you hit DTL, try not to hit long.
When you hit normal, it's normal, going up the middle.
When you hit CC, add more topspin but with a steeper swingpath from low to high.
 

Alexrb

Professional
I've never thought about changing ball direction in these terms. I just make contact earlier or later. If I miss wide, I'll almost always yell at myself, "TOO EARLY!" or "TOO LATE!".

Most times when I miss wide, it is because the opponent gave me a ball that was either slower or faster pace than I expected. This causes my timing to be incorrect.

I'm new to tennis, is this accepted as a correct way of thinking for higher tiered players?

I played baseball for fifteen years, and as a hitter, you generally want to drive an outside pitch to right field and an inside pitch to left to produce the best results. I've always been told the difference in hitting an inside pitch to left and outside to right is timing; where you have to let the ball travel further in the strike zone when it's outside, and hit it earlier out in front when it's inside.

Can this really be applied to tennis as well or no? In terms of hitting a CC forehand earlier and closer to the body and an IO forehand later and further away from the body.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Late or early works for me, for changing ball direction.
Seems in tennis, it's almost the opposite for me. When I'm run out wide, my easiest basic shot is sharp CC. When I"m jammed, I use a blocking stroke inside out.
But I'm lefty, so I do thing backwards.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
To me, using "late" and "early" in the swing to change ball direction is a poor technique. You make it difficult for yourself to time and get into rhythm.

Early on, I figured that if I could hit it straight to middle, I sure could hit to corners. This is NOT different than when you and your friends stand at 3 different spots and toss ball to each other. How can you throw a ball to Paul but unable to throw it to Peter? It doesn't make sense!
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I think this could be the reason and that's why I asked the question in the first place. when we try to hit outside of the ball to create a sharp angle cc, maybe due to body mechanics or something, I feel it's more difficult to hit through the ball in the intended direction.

here I put a diagram and apologize for my lousy drawing.

the two black circles are two feet, standing for open stance. green circle is the tennis ball and I hope the racquet is obvious. red arrow is the direction and swing path. for the CC shot on the right, it's more difficult to hit through the direction compared to the DTL shot on the left.
attachment.php

You can change your foot position and also your upper body rotates. My approach is to look at high speed videos of high level strokes and note the differences. The amount of arm or body turn plus arm that you are using should be evaluated and compared to high level strokes. If you are hitting the ball in the net there should be some indication as to why.

If you only use what you can observe by eye or feel you limit what you can think about. If the problem is somewhere else you might miss it. Foot position and racket position can be observed. Racket face angle at impact is not easy to observe. I tend to not notice body turn but seem to notice what my arm is doing much better. Minimizing body turn and arming might affect your pace.

Have you done any videos?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Toly picture from composite video. This shows the details of the racket from one viewpoint.

For racket path and angle at impact, I don't know the relative amount of turning the whole body with footwork as opposed to racket angle adjustments or hitting a little late or early, probably some of all.
Around contact the racquet moves vertically upward without “across component”. Thus, there is no diagonal brushing motion.

How+Federer+creates+Topspin+Scissor+Kick+Forehand+Front+Analysis.png


How+Federer+creates+Topspin+Scissor+Kick+Forehand+Front+Multiple.png


See also video http://youtu.be/VskfLOU88_Q
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I think this could be the reason and that's why I asked the question in the first place. when we try to hit outside of the ball to create a sharp angle cc, maybe due to body mechanics or something, I feel it's more difficult to hit through the ball in the intended direction.

here I put a diagram and apologize for my lousy drawing.

the two black circles are two feet, standing for open stance. green circle is the tennis ball and I hope the racquet is obvious. red arrow is the direction and swing path. for the CC shot on the right, it's more difficult to hit through the direction compared to the DTL shot on the left.
attachment.php

I like the drawing!

Imo folks get confused by net orientation and incoming ball direction, but...

We actually make contact pretty much on the back of the ball based on where it is going, with some small reflective aspects. so
the question is more about how we work up and across during that contact ....is the diagonal on inside or outside from the ball path to target?
the outside you mention is the hooking spin which can be powerful, but harder to control or more touch and spin with easier control imo. When driving the ball, I prefer the inside spin that I call a power fade. It can be hit crosscourt as well....so you don't have to work outside the ball for crossct as stated in the OP.
 

tonygao

Rookie
I like the drawing!

Imo folks get confused by net orientation and incoming ball direction, but...

We actually make contact pretty much on the back of the ball based on where it is going, with some small reflective aspects. so
the question is more about how we work up and across during that contact ....is the diagonal on inside or outside from the ball path to target?
the outside you mention is the hooking spin which can be powerful, but harder to control or more touch and spin with easier control imo. When driving the ball, I prefer the inside spin that I call a power fade. It can be hit crosscourt as well....so you don't have to work outside the ball for crossct as stated in the OP.
hi 5263
how to hit cc with inside spin? I am not sure I quite understand your point.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
hi 5263
how to hit cc with inside spin? I am not sure I quite understand your point.

For the most part you hit the same as an I/O and catch it a bit more out front. There are subtle things, like with the I/O I will tend to maintain the racket lag/drag a bit more, which helps to sort of "leave the ball" to the outside for the I/O. But with the crosscourt version I let the racket head start to catch up more towards neutral.

The key here is I think you are referencing the net for calling initial ball contact, but...Imo it is more the direction of your intended shot path you should reference.

So for crosscourt, your initial contact will be close to directly behind the ball...as referenced to the direction you are hitting (or slightly on outside of the ball referencing the net). From there, you can work to the outside or rt of the ball to hook it ....OR pull thru the inside or left side and send it with spin like and I/O Fh, with a left to right fade.
Do you follow?
 
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