Swing path fundamentals: Low to high

anubis

Hall of Fame
I have been giving some serious thought to my swing path lately. I feel that I may not be applying the maximum amount of topspin on my shots as I possibly can (with technique -- equipment not withstanding).

My swing path is almost always fairly straight through: I begin the racquet take back and then lower the hoop to be in line with the ball. I then swing forward, hit the ball, and my racquet finish is across my body, around my left elbow. My swing path is fairly parallel to the ground.

However, recently i've been watching a lot of the Tennis Channel and noticed that most pros seem to not do what I do. instead, they seem to start with their racquet head below the path of the ball, and they swing up in the air (not straight ahead) and finish over their left shoulder. Obviously, so does Rafa, but he finishes above his head -- but that's an exception, i don't think that extreme finish is applicable in my case.

Federer is another exception, he seems to swing rather parallel as well.

Would it be wise to try to re-work my swing path, to start lower than the ball and swing high, finishing over my left shoulder?

If so, what are the pros and cons?

thanks
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Read this: http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/12/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html

The pictures are very good. Look at what he come the First Forward Movement photos and you will see the racket head is below contact. The racket face is closed, and the top side of the frame is equal or a couple of inches below the contact point.

Also, scroll down in "10 End of Stroke" to see the photo where he shows Federer has a 14 degree rise to contact and Rafa has a 29 degree rise to contact. More severe lift to contact and more severe spin.

To keep it simple, try putting the top side of your frame at or below contact, the swing up to contact and let the follow thru continue up and wrap naturally into WW finish.

If you go to the root blog site: http://blog.tennisspeed.com/ there are several links on R side of the page that dissect modern FHs strokes. All the high speed photos support a degree of lift - less lift for moderate spin with more pace, and more lift for more spin and less pace.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Also, it depends how much energy you have for tennis. Swinging steeply upwards, low to high, takes a lot of effort for a little gain in spin, and a loss in ball speed, so less court penetration for the amount of effort involved.
If you're 24, fit and trained, you have endless energy to burn.
NOT if you're 60+.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
Also, it depends how much energy you have for tennis. Swinging steeply upwards, low to high, takes a lot of effort for a little gain in spin, and a loss in ball speed, so less court penetration for the amount of effort involved.
If you're 24, fit and trained, you have endless energy to burn.
NOT if you're 60+.

OK, so if you're old and can't maintain swinging low to high and have to swing straight through, how do you generate enough topspin to keep the ball in play, without stringing @ 70 lbs?
 

mightyrick

Legend
OK, so if you're old and can't maintain swinging low to high and have to swing straight through, how do you generate enough topspin to keep the ball in play, without stringing @ 70 lbs?

The quick answer is -- you don't.

Due to whatever limitation you have, if you can't swing with any semblance of low-to-high, then you just need to accept the fact that you are going to be a purely flat hitter. There are lots of old folks who do this and do just fine.

However, if someone were to adopt this style of play, I'd almost recommend changing to a purely continental forehand. The ball can be hit flat, but also with good net clearance and you can keep the ball deep. You don't have to change grips for chipping the backhand. You can do easy chip dropshots. No grip changes needed at all.
 

mawashi

Hall of Fame
anubis, in the grand scheme of things having perfect form, hitting dept and speed etc means squat.

I've been on the receiving end of crazy good drop shots, slices and volleys from old, overweight old farts who just took over the net and with huge bird catching size OS sticks just sliced and diced every shot they got.

I can blast all I want at them and guess what, those damn OS sticks just absorbs the punch and throws it back.

When I see an old guy with an over sized stick from the 90s I know I'm either going to have a really good or a hard day.
 

mightyrick

Legend
anubis, in the grand scheme of things having perfect form, hitting dept and speed etc means squat.

I've been on the receiving end of crazy good drop shots, slices and volleys from old, overweight old farts who just took over the net and with huge bird catching size OS sticks just sliced and diced every shot they got.

I can blast all I want at them and guess what, those damn OS sticks just absorbs the punch and throws it back.

When I see an old guy with an over sized stick from the 90s I know I'm either going to have a really good or a hard day.

Absolutely. I regularly play an old guy who uses an O3 Speedzone that must be almost 120 square inches. Ugh, that sucks so bad. Everything comes back. Everything comes back deep. That racquet absorbs all the pace. He can just dink a dropshot with almost no swing at all off both sides. He hits flat as a board.

Such a pain in the azz.
 

Cobra Tennis

Professional
Try "pulling" across the ball to your shoulder. This makes you not hit linearly, but across the ball to put topspin on it.

Check out an Oscar Wegner video about the forehand. I know his name is like Voldemort, but it works for me and the students I have taught using it. So simple.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
I still think you need to use spin in your game. Either a little topspin or a little slice and you need to practice good technique to achieve this even in your 60s or 70s. I have played guy ranked no 1 in 65 and over and he used lots of slice and he did it with a stroke designed to impact slice. I also play an ex college play in his late 50s and he uses topspin and slice - both fairly moderate but he definitely uses practiced stroke patterns to apply spin.

To me if you don't understand how to apply deliberate top or slice and don't practice it, you are not playing tennis. That sounds opinionated and it is just my opinion but I think practicing pancake flat strokes is not good tennis.

Even the good "flat" players at rec level and pro level have top or slice stroke patterns. Sharapova lifts on her FH and BH flat drives and the ball typically makes a few rotations in the air and is not truly dead flat. Even Connors from the past got some rotation and had a lifting stroke pattern - he either went slightly up thru contact or slightly down thru contact for top or slice. Granted, Connors had minimal spin on average but his CC groundstrokes and running FH pass did have a few topspin rotations on them on average.
 
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rkelley

Hall of Fame
I have been giving some serious thought to my swing path lately. I feel that I may not be applying the maximum amount of topspin on my shots as I possibly can (with technique -- equipment not withstanding).

My swing path is almost always fairly straight through: I begin the racquet take back and then lower the hoop to be in line with the ball. I then swing forward, hit the ball, and my racquet finish is across my body, around my left elbow. My swing path is fairly parallel to the ground.

However, recently i've been watching a lot of the Tennis Channel and noticed that most pros seem to not do what I do. instead, they seem to start with their racquet head below the path of the ball, and they swing up in the air (not straight ahead) and finish over their left shoulder. Obviously, so does Rafa, but he finishes above his head -- but that's an exception, i don't think that extreme finish is applicable in my case.

Federer is another exception, he seems to swing rather parallel as well.

Would it be wise to try to re-work my swing path, to start lower than the ball and swing high, finishing over my left shoulder?

If so, what are the pros and cons?

thanks

The general answer to your question is that yes, putting a little low to high in your swing path will help you gain some margin on your shots.

You can do it little, by just using the basic swing path that you have and starting a bit below the ball and swinging up a bit into the ball, or you can do a lot by totally retooling your swing and put huge amounts of spin on the ball. The more you change the more work it's going to be and the longer you're going to have to work on it before it starts showing gains.

A couple of notes:
- Federer isn't any different than the other pros. All the men, and a lot of the women, hit with tons of spin. They also hit with tons of pace. Look at youtube.

- I'm going to disagree with Lee about the energy required to hit topspin. If you use modern technique (that is very efficient), then in light to moderate rallying you can hit tons of spin with about the same effort (maybe less) than you're probably expending now to hit your flat shot. Note that this would be the total retooling of the stroke option. Now if you're trying to hit with big spin and pace, then yah, that's work. Up to you whether you want to work up to hitting that hard, but it sure is fun hearing the ball make that cracking sound as it hits the strings.
 

mawashi

Hall of Fame
I still think you need to use spin in your game. Either a little topspin or a little slice and you need to practice good technique to achieve this even in your 60s or 70s. I have played guy ranked no 1 in 65 and over and he used lots of slice and he did it with a stroke designed to impact slice. I also play an ex college play in his late 50s and he uses topspin and slice - both fairly moderate but he definitely uses practiced stroke patterns to apply spin.

To me if you don't understand how to apply deliberate top or slice and don't practice it, you are not playing tennis. That sounds opinionated and it is just my opinion but I think practicing pancake flat strokes is not good tennis.

Even the good "flat" players at rec level and pro level have top or slice stroke patterns. Sharapova lifts on her FH and BH flat drives and the ball typically makes a few rotations in the air and is not truly dead flat. Even Connors from the past got some rotation and had a lifting stroke pattern - he either went slightly up thru contact or slightly down thru contact for top or slice. Granted, Connors had minimal spin on average but his CC groundstrokes and running FH pass did have a few topspin rotations on them on average.

I'm sure anubis knows all the benefits of having good form but isn't able to get it to work so you've preaching to the choir.

Whatever works and gets the wins that's effective tennis, function over form here so find a stick that does that.

Prince and prokennex makes some really good os sticks.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
The general answer to your question is that yes, putting a little low to high in your swing path will help you gain some margin on your shots.

You can do it little, by just using the basic swing path that you have and starting a bit below the ball and swinging up a bit into the ball, or you can do a lot by totally retooling your swing and put huge amounts of spin on the ball. The more you change the more work it's going to be and the longer you're going to have to work on it before it starts showing gains.

A couple of notes:
- Federer isn't any different than the other pros. All the men, and a lot of the women, hit with tons of spin. They also hit with tons of pace. Look at youtube.

- I'm going to disagree with Lee about the energy required to hit topspin. If you use modern technique (that is very efficient), then in light to moderate rallying you can hit tons of spin with about the same effort (maybe less) than you're probably expending now to hit your flat shot. Note that this would be the total retooling of the stroke option. Now if you're trying to hit with big spin and pace, then yah, that's work. Up to you whether you want to work up to hitting that hard, but it sure is fun hearing the ball make that cracking sound as it hits the strings.

I sort of agree. I don't think you can hit "tons of spin" if over 60s but I think you can certainly hit moderate spin to help control the ball if you use good technique. I also agree that hitting a pancake flat stroke is no easier than hitting moderate topspin.

To me slice requires the lest amount of energy but it does not provide the same margin of error.
 

3fees

G.O.A.T.
Swinging flat you generate top spin by rolling your wrist slightly after contact and fully thru the finish, Laver is credited with the first person to do this with the wiper stroke, before him the wrist did not roll thru the stroke,

Cheers
3Fees :)
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
The quick answer is -- you don't.

Due to whatever limitation you have, if you can't swing with any semblance of low-to-high, then you just need to accept the fact that you are going to be a purely flat hitter. There are lots of old folks who do this and do just fine.

However, if someone were to adopt this style of play, I'd almost recommend changing to a purely continental forehand. The ball can be hit flat, but also with good net clearance and you can keep the ball deep. You don't have to change grips for chipping the backhand. You can do easy chip dropshots. No grip changes needed at all.

Thanks. my question was mostly rhetorical. I can swing low to high, I just prefer not to because when I do, my 30 MPH forehands turn into 20 mph moonballs. Sure, it's very reliable and I can keep it up all day, but any 3.5 can punish that really fast.

So I need to figure out how to hit harder, swing faster, generate pace, and hit with enough topspin to keep the ball in play.

If I don't, I'm going to lose all my 3.5 matches this year (which I already am anyway).
 
You say your swing path is parallel to the ground. So you have a high contact point, around shoulder high? If not, how can you have any consistency?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Thanks. my question was mostly rhetorical. I can swing low to high, I just prefer not to because when I do, my 30 MPH forehands turn into 20 mph moonballs. Sure, it's very reliable and I can keep it up all day, but any 3.5 can punish that really fast.

So I need to figure out how to hit harder, swing faster, generate pace, and hit with enough topspin to keep the ball in play.

If I don't, I'm going to lose all my 3.5 matches this year (which I already am anyway).

Just start out with moderate low to high and work from there. Just don't go continental as that would make little sense even for hitting flat.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
You say your swing path is parallel to the ground. So you have a high contact point, around shoulder high? If not, how can you have any consistency?

It can be shoulder high, but I prefer not to hit it at that point. If I think the ball will bounce high, then I'll retreat a bit and wait for it to drop so that it's more comfortable for me to hit.

It's not 100% parallel, I don't know if that's possible with a semi western grip. but it's certainly not below my hips and finishing over my shoulder either.

As soon as it's warmer out I'll go and hit a bit and see how adjusting my swing path feels.
 

mightyrick

Legend
It can be shoulder high, but I prefer not to hit it at that point. If I think the ball will bounce high, then I'll retreat a bit and wait for it to drop so that it's more comfortable for me to hit.

It's not 100% parallel, I don't know if that's possible with a semi western grip. but it's certainly not below my hips and finishing over my shoulder either.

As soon as it's warmer out I'll go and hit a bit and see how adjusting my swing path feels.

With your semi-western grip, where is your contact point? If I try to swing a semi-western grip almost parallel to the ground, it actually is very uncomfortable. It almost hurts.

If you took a video of yourself, I bet you get more low-to-high than you think. That grip seems to require it if you want the ball to get over the net cord.
 

GoudX

Professional
Even flat hitters swing low to high. Unless your contact point is above net height, or you are swinging with a open face (like a slice) then you need to swing low-high to get the ball over the net.

The biggest problem I tend to find with lower level players is that they are trying to hit the ball at a target on the opposite side of the court. The problem is the net is blocking the way, and gravity makes the ball drop before it even reaches that point. Getting the player to swing low to high, aiming to hit a certain height over the net is the best way of getting a 3.0-4.0player to get their shots more consistent. Even if you are trying to crush the ball like Del Potro, you need to aim to hit the ball up, or you'll net all your shots.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
With your semi-western grip, where is your contact point? If I try to swing a semi-western grip almost parallel to the ground, it actually is very uncomfortable. It almost hurts.

If you took a video of yourself, I bet you get more low-to-high than you think. That grip seems to require it if you want the ball to get over the net cord.

You may be right, but when I watch videos of professional players (or even college players), I just *know* that I'm not swinging that low to high. I guess it's a difference of 5 or 10 degrees, versus 15 to 20 degrees.

I'm eager to experiment though. I'll try to capture some video too.
 

mightyrick

Legend
You may be right, but when I watch videos of professional players (or even college players), I just *know* that I'm not swinging that low to high. I guess it's a difference of 5 or 10 degrees, versus 15 to 20 degrees.

I'm eager to experiment though. I'll try to capture some video too.

Heheh, it depends on the pro. If you look at someone like Del Potro or Tomic, you might find that you are on par with those guys when it comes to low-to-high angle.
 

watungga

Professional
It's all in the timing. The Low to High is very easy to execute if you're hitting the ball whose bounce is in descending motion. If its in apex, you're attempting to drive away or kill the rally with somewhat flat punch.

So it depends on your habit of when and where you always like to punch the ball.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The simple key to working low to higher is that you must get the racket and to some extent the hand...below the contact point on the backswing.. Clearly you can't move from low if you never get there.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
The simple key to working low to higher is that you must get the racket and to some extent the hand...below the contact point on the backswing.. Clearly you can't move from low if you never get there.

Right. That might explain my problem, since I usually line up my wrist with where the ball is. Therefore, I can't possibly be swinging low to high, since I'm never technically lower than the ball. Occasionally I might finish high, above my shoulder, but that's probably a waste of energy since I was never low to begin with.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Do you hit the wall a lot?
I've been lately, and it's flattenning both my forehand and backhand swings.
On a wall, it's easy to hit flat shots that go fast with little energy, so I forget to add the extra topspin I would need when playing a live opponent. As opposed to a dead opponent.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Do you hit the wall a lot?
I've been lately, and it's flattenning both my forehand and backhand swings.
On a wall, it's easy to hit flat shots that go fast with little energy, so I forget to add the extra topspin I would need when playing a live opponent. As opposed to a dead opponent.

very good point lee
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
Do you hit the wall a lot?
I've been lately, and it's flattenning both my forehand and backhand swings.
On a wall, it's easy to hit flat shots that go fast with little energy, so I forget to add the extra topspin I would need when playing a live opponent. As opposed to a dead opponent.

Actually, I do the majority of my training in the spring and summer months by hitting against a wall.

Perhaps I've picked up some bad habits that way. If i hit against a wall for a couple of hours and then play a match the next day, then maybe my muscle memory still feels like I'm hitting against the wall, but I'm not adding enough top spin to keep the ball in play.
 
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