Swing Vision AI line calls and Analysis

Klitz

Rookie
@Klitz @Ml22 @TesseractOrion This has nothing to do with whether the phones can process the video - it’s about whether they can process video in real-time. The only reason we recommend iPhone SE 2nd gen to Android folks is because that is the cheapest phone on the market that can do real-time processing with SwingVision (less than $200 on Amazon). We have dozens of folks switch to iOS every week just for SwingVision so we try to recommend the most economical option. Of course anything newer will be even better.

We have tens of thousands of customers and >95% of them use A13 or newer chips. Those folks have a 10x better experience than folks on older devices that can’t do real-time processing. It’s night and day. Plus they get access to real-time features like line challenges and audio feedback.

As such, we will not go to Android until there are a few flagship devices that are capable of real-time processing.

There’s really no other agenda here - we’d love to serve as many people as possible but will only do so if it’s a good experience. Geekbench ML results are publicly available - there have been no Android devices that can match iPhone 11 in NPU (ie AI performance) prior to Pixel 6. You’re welcome to see the results yourself here:https://browser.geekbench.com/ml-benchmarks

I know this might be hard to accept but Apple‘a Neural Engine really is several years ahead of the industry. I was pretty shocked to see this given my experience at Tesla Autopilot. Fortunately Google’s doing some amazing work with their Tensor chips and Qualcomm seems to have caught up this year.

Android for SwingVision is on the way, assuming this macro environment doesnt cause us any setback with hiring/layoffs o_O
I am assuming that you have market research, and I am curious...

Do tennis players, when compared to general population, use IPhones and Androids at a higher, lower, or the same distribution percentages?
 

swupnil

Rookie
@Klitz surprisingly we haven’t found rigorous data on this! Given that tennis is typically played by folks with higher income, and iOS is more popular amongst higher income demographics, my guess would be that iOS is more popular amongst tennis players in general. I suppose we’ll have some great data on this once we come to Android!

The one interesting data point we’ve learned is that nearly all college and junior players use iOS, while it seems private coaches tend to use Android. This has definitely been a big blocker in capturing more of the U.S. coaching market for us, so we’re particularly excited about unlocking that, especially as we introduce remote coaching.
 

Klitz

Rookie
@Klitz surprisingly we haven’t found rigorous data on this! Given that tennis is typically played by folks with higher income, and iOS is more popular amongst higher income demographics, my guess would be that iOS is more popular amongst tennis players in general. I suppose we’ll have some great data on this once we come to Android!

The one interesting data point we’ve learned is that nearly all college and junior players use iOS, while it seems private coaches tend to use Android. This has definitely been a big blocker in capturing more of the U.S. coaching market for us, so we’re particularly excited about unlocking that, especially as we introduce remote coaching.
Interesting feedback, thank you.
 

Ml22

New User
@Klitz surprisingly we haven’t found rigorous data on this! Given that tennis is typically played by folks with higher income, and iOS is more popular amongst higher income demographics, my guess would be that iOS is more popular amongst tennis players in general. I suppose we’ll have some great data on this once we come to Android!

The one interesting data point we’ve learned is that nearly all college and junior players use iOS, while it seems private coaches tend to use Android. This has definitely been a big blocker in capturing more of the U.S. coaching market for us, so we’re particularly excited about unlocking that, especially as we introduce remote coaching.

That might be true in the US but not here in Europe, in countries where tennis is really popular like France, Spain, Germany, Belgium... Usually smarter people have Android phones and everyone knows that smart people play tennis :laughing:

I might understand the problem with the processing power, what I really don't understand is why do I have to wait 4/5 days to watch the videos on my Android phone's browser. At least an app that allows the hevc videos to be played after they are uploaded immediately, that would be good enough for now, because watching anything on the crappy SE screen when you have a 6.1" amoled is painful.
 
@Klitz @Ml22 @TesseractOrion

There’s really no other agenda here - we’d love to serve as many people as possible but will only do so if it’s a good experience. Geekbench ML results are publicly available - there have been no Android devices that can match iPhone 11 in NPU (ie AI performance) prior to Pixel 6. You’re welcome to see the results yourself here:https://browser.geekbench.com/ml-benchmarks

What is the lowest ML NPU score would be acceptable for SwingVision? :unsure: I'm tempted to do as you suggest and get a 2nd hand iPhone rather than wait for Android...
 

swupnil

Rookie
@Ml22 we have a big backlog of videos that need to be transcoded into h264 so that Chrome can play it. If Google were smarter, they would support HEVC on Chrome now that it’s the default recording format on the latest Android devices :p

We are in fact working on a v0 app that can just do HEVC playback and nothing else. It’s just moving slowly since we don’t have the resources for full time Android development yet. Hopefully we will soon…. Maybe we should do an Android presale/waitlist so the community can help fund the development? :unsure:

@TesseractOrion anything with iPhone 11 or better score will work. iPhone SE 2nd gen is the cheapest option as mentioned above.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
@Ml22 we have a big backlog of videos that need to be transcoded into h264 so that Chrome can play it. If Google were smarter, they would support HEVC on Chrome now that it’s the default recording format on the latest Android devices :p

We are in fact working on a v0 app that can just do HEVC playback and nothing else. It’s just moving slowly since we don’t have the resources for full time Android development yet. Hopefully we will soon…. Maybe we should do an Android presale/waitlist so the community can help fund the development? :unsure:

@TesseractOrion anything with iPhone 11 or better score will work. iPhone SE 2nd gen is the cheapest option as mentioned above.
it's pretty much there by now
 
@TesseractOrion anything with iPhone 11 or better score will work. iPhone SE 2nd gen is the cheapest option as mentioned above.

So I'm thinking iPhone SE 2020 model (A13 Bionic chip) plus Watch 5 would be the cheapest entry into the eco-system?

PS Silly question maybe but...: How are people coping with indoor play (it's just coming into Winter here in the UK)? I mean, the bubbles, domes, arenas (and even converted barns) around here don't have fencing at the back so there's nowhere to hang the phone. Does the attachment device connect to a camera tripod and if so, how far would it need to extend? Cheers
 
@swupnil Can you add an option to record just tie breakers - 7 points and 10 points? I only see an option to start a match/points play with sets. I think having an option to record 7 point and 10 point tie breakers will be very useful and should be a relatively easy implementation ?
 

swupnil

Rookie
@TesseractOrion technically Apple Watch SE will be cheaper but same functionality. You can just use a standard 60 inch tripod for indoor situations. Line calling accuracy will be a little bit less but you’ll still get proper highlights and the video looks great from the ground level too!

@rider4ever yea sorry been wanting to add that for a while. A bit swamped with some other priorities but we’ll do it hopefully by end of the year or worse case Q1.
 

wt888usa

Rookie
I don’t know if this has been covered at all, but is there a way to pair multiple apple watches to a match? That way whoever I’m playing can also have access to the score of the match, favorite points, or even update the score? Or if we are doing a non-video recording, to be able to just have both of us in the match and track the steps, hits, heartrate data from our watches?
 

swupnil

Rookie
@Ml22 amazing!!! We’ll update the messaging this week.

We’ll be rolling out stats & charts in phases. Which ones do you want to see the most?
 

a10best

Legend
My opponent used this and set it up on a camera on the high part of the fence on one end.
Apparently, I hit 4 serves over 100 mph, one of em' at 117 and he hit one at 130. This is just not accurate. I've seen D1 and tournament club pros who can hit 100+ serves and I know we weren't.
The majority of our serves were calc'd at 70-80 mph which seems more accurate.

What I got out of it is I need to turn my shoulders more on my bh and improve my stroke speed.
 

swupnil

Rookie
@a10best shot speed accuracy from a single camera whose line of sight is parallel to the ball's trajectory is incredibly challenging. If the A.I. is off by just a couple frames on the shot's start/end times, the speeds can vary a lot. We are working to prevent outliers like this but they will happen. In general it's best to look at averages throughout a session by stroke type and use that to track your progress. For the outliers, you can edit the shots during video playback and adjust the hit/bounce time to get more accurate speeds. (These edits are actually really helpful for us to find edge cases and improve the speed accuracy!)
 

a10best

Legend
@a10best shot speed accuracy from a single camera whose line of sight is parallel to the ball's trajectory is incredibly challenging. If the A.I. is off by just a couple frames on the shot's start/end times, the speeds can vary a lot. We are working to prevent outliers like this but they will happen. In general it's best to look at averages throughout a session by stroke type and use that to track your progress. For the outliers, you can edit the shots during video playback and adjust the hit/bounce time to get more accurate speeds. (These edits are actually really helpful for us to find edge cases and improve the speed accuracy!)
Yep, that what I figured was to remove the anomalies throughout the match as a true indicator of the speed.
Overall, it's pretty good.
 

swupnil

Rookie
@awwcraig the biggest difference you’ll see is on the ultra wide camera. If you need to zoom out at all to see the court, 13 Pro and newer have much clearer ultra wide cameras. This has a substantial impact on accuracy for that case.
 

swupnil

Rookie
@Ml22 @jmnk I hope HEVC has been playing well for you all on Chrome! One question I had is if you’ve tried watching these videos on Windows. I’m getting some reports that HEVC is not playing for Windows folks, even on the latest Chrome :(
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Using the 12 Pro Max wide angle it's blurry. Which wide angle camera is good with swingvision? Is the 13 or 14 the same quality? If so I'd rater buy the cheaper iphone 13, does the 13 mini do wide angle?
 

antony

Hall of Fame
Using the 12 Pro Max wide angle it's blurry. Which wide angle camera is good with swingvision? Is the 13 or 14 the same quality? If so I'd rater buy the cheaper iphone 13, does the 13 mini do wide angle?
It’s clear enough on a 13 pro max, but unfortunately, with the qm-1 on I think standard fences, the net cord is always in line with the opposite service line for me and it makes it hard to see line calls on the service line.

Also, wide lens has a bit of a fish eye distortion
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
It’s clear enough on a 13 pro max, but unfortunately, with the qm-1 on I think standard fences, the net cord is always in line with the opposite service line for me and it makes it hard to see line calls on the service line.

Also, wide lens has a bit of a fish eye distortion

Thanks so which angle do you use? The regular is missing part of the doubles alley and if the person plays deep you don’t see them.
 
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Dishiki

Rookie
My buddy recorded a doubles match that I was a part of. I liked it for the fact I could analyze my strokes. The speeds are so far off it isn't even funny. I wouldn't even consider them as part of the analysis. Also, the video would not play on my laptop or my phone. He had to upload it to youtube so I could watch. Otherwise, it just buffers. I'm not sure I would buy it, but it was nice to see my strokes.
 

Ruskuval

New User
My buddy recorded a doubles match that I was a part of. I liked it for the fact I could analyze my strokes. The speeds are so far off it isn't even funny. I wouldn't even consider them as part of the analysis. Also, the video would not play on my laptop or my phone. He had to upload it to youtube so I could watch. Otherwise, it just buffers. I'm not sure I would buy it, but it was nice to see my strokes.

The speeds are definitely strange. I play with a friend who clearly hits slower than I do but his avg speed is always a tiny bit faster in the stats. When I go to his fastest shots they are all weird shanks that for some reason get assigned a very fast speed. The app is cool in general but not sure how automatic line calling will work either since it still gets enough calls wrong that I can't imagine using it.
 

forzamr_b

Rookie
@swupnil I use my iPhone 13 mini to record my sessions. Is it possible for the post recording video processing to be done on my iPad Pro instead? Processing time is noticeably slower on the mini, thanks!
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
What’s the best way to enter the score? Do you guys use imovie because doing it every point on your watch seems like a pain
 

forzamr_b

Rookie
What’s the best way to enter the score? Do you guys use imovie because doing it every point on your watch seems like a pain

point-by-point mode works well for me since it just takes 1 swipe to track the score. On their other hand, I found point by point+ mode too cumbersome and slow during match play.
 

Mungo

Rookie
Similar to an experience a few weeks ago, my practice sets today will not sync to the cloud. It displays a “queued for upload” status, is plugged in at full power on wi-if. On another device it reports “99 percent uploaded“. Last time this happened I reported to Swing Help but did not get a response…I considered that an anomaly, however it has happened again now. Since then I had a successful recording and synch. But two out of three failed recordings will make it hard to remain enthusiastic about this product.

 

swupnil

Rookie
@Mungo Sorry about that. We've just forced the upload to go through. Our team is super small, and the support team even smaller, so responses can take a while. In general, though, if you aren't able to get a response within 7 days that's very unusual and you should feel free to DM me here directly.

Overall, the uploading has been super challenging for us. We have to upload these 10GB+ files but within the constraints of iOS's background uploading. There are lots of edge cases and things that can go wrong. The latest 9.8 update improves the overall speed of the process if you select the Trimmed Video option, but there are still some edge cases we're hunting down with the process itself. The team is spending this quarter to hunt down these last remaining issues such as videos getting stuck at 99%, staying the in the upload queue or having their percentages jump around. I am confident we'll fix them by Q1 and have an industry leading experience.
 

Mungo

Rookie
Thank you, and glad it was something you could address. Hopefully the kind of glitch which you can prevent in the future.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Is anyone recording on an iphone 12 pro or 12 max wide angle? Is it super blurry or I've heard there is a setting you can change. Else I'm going to buy a 13 pro or 14 pro does the wide angle on those have better quality? I'm amazed at how bad the 12 pro max wide angle quality is
 
I'm amazed at how bad the 12 pro max wide angle quality is

Yikes! I was planning to get a refurbished iPhone SE (2020) near Black Friday to try it out... if even iPhone 12 Pro is poor, I'm wondering if I'll be wasting my money!? :unsure:

The other option is to wait (still) for the Android version as I will be upgrading that phone in the new year (was only going to use iPhone for SwingVision, nothing else - as it'd be refurbished, I wouldn't worry so much about damage to it).

OTOH Don't like the idea of hanging brand new mid-upper range Android phone to fence TBH...
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Yikes! I was planning to get a refurbished iPhone SE (2020) near Black Friday to try it out... if even iPhone 12 Pro is poor, I'm wondering if I'll be wasting my money!? :unsure:

The other option is to wait (still) for the Android version as I will be upgrading that phone in the new year (was only going to use iPhone for SwingVision, nothing else - as it'd be refurbished, I wouldn't worry so much about damage to it).

OTOH Don't like the idea of hanging brand new mid-upper range Android phone to fence TBH...

Actually I think the SE is fine, 11 and 12 Pro max normal camera I’ve used and it’s good for normal camera. The ultra wide screen camera is not ok. I think most film it with the regular camera and but I like the wide angle for doubles. Didn’t mean to put out false info. I can say the 13 Pro wide angle is good. But I’ve filmed it in android wide angle, then if you have iPad just import it on swingvision and you’ll be good. I used an Android and the program Hedge Open camera app on the android and filmed. That’s a good cheap option if you already have an ipad
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Is there a setting to stop this from uploading to the internet.

I’m teaching my sisters kids and recording the practice. Their setting is set for participants only and every time the iPad is connected to WiFi it keeps trying to upload the video to the internet.

Clearly a privacy issue even if set to participants only I can see why parents would not want videos of their kids auto uploaded to the internet regardless of what the privacy setting is set at. There should be a setting to not upload sessions at all
 

swupnil

Rookie
@2ndServe were just backing it up to our cloud, like Apple does with any photos you take on your device. I suppose we could add the ability to turn that off if you really don’t want it.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
@2ndServe were just backing it up to our cloud, like Apple does with any photos you take on your device. I suppose we could add the ability to turn that off if you really don’t want it.

For the kids ipad they have it so no photos are backed up to icloud, I think all icloud sync options are off. Hopefully there will be an opt out option. Thanks
 

happyloman

Professional
@swupnil
One of my sessions (Nov 24th, 00:53 minutes, 1.53 GB) refuse to upload.. The app keeps displaying "Unable to upload recent session stats. Retry" (The icon shows "Your session stars are currently uploading")
Have restarted the iPhone several times. A later session (Nov 25th, 00:24 minutes, 886 MB) uploaded without issue.

Is there a new size/length limitation? Never had issues with size or length before.

Help please?
 

Mungo

Rookie
Anybody have a particular umbrella shade they like to use to prevent their phone from overheating in the sun?
 
@swupnil

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer everyone’s questions. I found it so helpful that I ended up pulling the trigger on it tonight. Looking forward to receiving the stand so I can start utilizing the app!
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Anybody have a particular umbrella shade they like to use to prevent their phone from overheating in the sun?

A light colored phone case like silver or white should reflect the heat. I’ve had mine on light colored case and it doesn’t overheat
 

Alex_Dnepr

New User
@swupnil I wonder if there is a possibility of connecting two devices in the future development of the device? I use the InOut system and for comparison, sometimes I put SwingVision. I watched the video of the last game and saw that SwingVision makes about 10-15% of serious errors (an error in determining whether the ball hit the court or not). A decent percentage of errors with a hit point inside the court, but I did not count the exact number. All serious errors were on the far side of the court and if you use two phones, then the quality of the application will greatly increase
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
@swupnil I use my iPhone 13 mini to record my sessions. Is it possible for the post recording video processing to be done on my iPad Pro instead? Processing time is noticeably slower on the mini, thanks!

yes, I've recorded on my iphone 13. But even after recording in app it takes time to export. But to save even more time, I record in the native camera app. Air drop the video to my ipad pro, choose import video and do the processing on that.
 

forzamr_b

Rookie
yes, I've recorded on my iphone 13. But even after recording in app it takes time to export. But to save even more time, I record in the native camera app. Air drop the video to my ipad pro, choose import video and do the processing on that.
Thanks for the tip to save more time but not really an option for me as I have to use in-app recording to enjoy the score tracking with my Apple Watch. I guess I could do them separately, but 2 separate records for the same session just seems too cluttered.
 

derick232

Rookie
@swupnil any chance we could get the option to only see shots/ points from a specific person when they are on a specific side of the court? Analyzing form with footage from the opposite side of the court is kind of tough.
 

swupnil

Rookie
Apologies for the delay, everyone! Was busy fundraising in this crazy economy o_O

@happyloman sorry, that should be resolved in the latest update!

@Mungo we recommend this shade. We're working on a new version of the phone mount with an integrated sunshade, which will hopefully launch in Q1.

@Alex_Dnepr that seems really high. What device, resolution and zoom setting are you using? But to answer your question, yes 2 camera mode is coming in 2023 and we are really close to getting approval for use in some national level junior tournaments & adult leagues next year. I can't say where yet but this is going to be pretty huge!

@Sahbatage sorry! Android coming next year. We are moving full steam ahead on it and working closely with Google & Samsung to bring this to market.

@derick232 yea good call, this has been a decently common request. We'll add it in Q1.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Apologies for the delay, everyone! Was busy fundraising in this crazy economy o_O

@happyloman sorry, that should be resolved in the latest update!

@Mungo we recommend this shade. We're working on a new version of the phone mount with an integrated sunshade, which will hopefully launch in Q1.

@Alex_Dnepr that seems really high. What device, resolution and zoom setting are you using? But to answer your question, yes 2 camera mode is coming in 2023 and we are really close to getting approval for use in some national level junior tournaments & adult leagues next year. I can't say where yet but this is going to be pretty huge!

@Sahbatage sorry! Android coming next year. We are moving full steam ahead on it and working closely with Google & Samsung to bring this to market.

@derick232 yea good call, this has been a decently common request. We'll add it in Q1.

If I buy the ambassador lifetime sub does it do 4k? I see some ambassadors on YouTube that have 4k resolution of swingvision
 

Mungo

Rookie
Anyone use the new “panning“ feature? Curious how you activate it…is it only there in certain modes? Activated during setup or later?
 
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