Swing Vision AI line calls and Analysis
- Thread starter Badmrfrosty
- Start date
rider4ever
Rookie
You don’t need to activate anything.
when you export or share videos choose 1:1 or 9:16 mode and autopan feature with the desired overlay. Best to choose few good points and favorite them and export them as highlights in the autopan mode.
Took me a while to figure this out. @swupnil may be add this in the release notes?
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
is this thing working better now ? can we use it in the league ?
swupnil
Rookie
@Mungo its purely software editing and can be applied to any video at the time of export. When you’re sharing your highlight(s) out of the app, choose Export Video and then select Vertical.
We’ll have an update out in Jan that makes it a lot faster/easier to share a single rally, which should make this panning feature even more useful.
We’ll have an update out in Jan that makes it a lot faster/easier to share a single rally, which should make this panning feature even more useful.
swupnil
Rookie
And yea @Mungo sorry about that - bug in playback that we somehow missed. Submitted a fix to the App Store already.
@Nostradamus we’re close to signing our first pilot for line calling in junior tournaments & adult leagues next year. Can’t share more than that yet but 2023 is going to be the year many players will call their own lines for the last time ever.
@Nostradamus we’re close to signing our first pilot for line calling in junior tournaments & adult leagues next year. Can’t share more than that yet but 2023 is going to be the year many players will call their own lines for the last time ever.
This is going to be crazy awesome, unbiased line calls for tournaments and league is going to quite the game changer.
Anybody using the next Iphone SE for this? I've had my Iphone max almost knocked off so I'm going to buy a cheaper phone just to mount and won't care what happens to it.
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happyloman
Professional
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
i was planning on wearing the watch on my offhand (left). as that is wear i normally wear it. most people tend to wear watches on their non-dominant arm.
but to get swing analysis the watch has to be worn on the dominant wrist.
is the data you get worth it? should i get used to playing with the watch on my dominant hand?
how do people go about this? do you switch the watch to the other side just for tennis? (then switch back after) seems a bit annoying to do for those that play often.
but to get swing analysis the watch has to be worn on the dominant wrist.
is the data you get worth it? should i get used to playing with the watch on my dominant hand?
how do people go about this? do you switch the watch to the other side just for tennis? (then switch back after) seems a bit annoying to do for those that play often.
theSHAMOO
Rookie
I'm hoping swingvision finds a way to do processing on their own servers after uploading a video. Processing and having to leave the app open on a personal phone has been a painful experience for me. Receiving phonecalls, network changes, or other random interruptions will not only cause you to have to start over on the processing, but usually corrupt the video file so that when it finally is uploaded, it is trimmed incorrectly. Have lost several hours worth of tennis because of the 'process' feature.
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
there should be a 0 set option for score track settings. so we can keep score for tiebreakers, when not playing full sets...
common practice drill is to play out 10 pt tiebreaks, esp when you have uneven numbers, so someone can sit out.
common practice drill is to play out 10 pt tiebreaks, esp when you have uneven numbers, so someone can sit out.
forzamr_b
Rookie
I like it as it allows the possibility of score tracking and more importantly 100% accurate match stats analysis. It has become the most useful source of data on my performance.
I use point by point tracking. Would be nice to get point by point + detailed stats, but it is too cumbersome to log during match play.
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
with the sport band at least... definitely too uncomfortable putting the watch on my dominant arm.
i don't think this will be an easy change to make.
swupnil
Rookie
@happyloman yep still in beta. Please email us at support@swing.tennis for access!
@ryukensfj sorry we had some supply chain issues but all caught up now. Looking into finding a way to have the subscription start upon delivery - totally agree with you there.
@theSHAMOO it’s pretty unlikely we’ll ever do cloud processing. Super costly and >80% of our customers use iPhone 11 or newer to get real-time processing. As people upgrade devices over time, real-time will be the norm. It’s a 10x better experience. Setting a Focus automation prevents any interruptions.
@ichaseballs latest release lets you do standalone 10 pt tiebreak (just turn super tiebreak on and select 1 set).
@ryukensfj sorry we had some supply chain issues but all caught up now. Looking into finding a way to have the subscription start upon delivery - totally agree with you there.
@theSHAMOO it’s pretty unlikely we’ll ever do cloud processing. Super costly and >80% of our customers use iPhone 11 or newer to get real-time processing. As people upgrade devices over time, real-time will be the norm. It’s a 10x better experience. Setting a Focus automation prevents any interruptions.
@ichaseballs latest release lets you do standalone 10 pt tiebreak (just turn super tiebreak on and select 1 set).
I tried it on the other wrist and it makes putting the score in more awkward
OldManStan
Rookie
Try the sport loop. The Velcro makes it super easy to put on and off. I would just recommend washing it by hand every now and then.
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
i already bought the sport loop band, just waiting on shipping.
anyone out there switch wrists for their watch when playing tennis?
anyone out there switch wrists for their watch when playing tennis?
theSHAMOO
Rookie
Thanks for your response, this does make sense.
I just played another match and did the post match processing, and it seems that once again, the cuts are totally off and I cannot watch coherent points. This time, there was no interruption during the processing. This does really annoy me as I have already purchased a subscription for a year. Is there any reason why this might be happening?
I am on an Iphone XR
I am using a tripod at the back of the court
Video link (once it uploads to cloud): https://swing.tennis/matches/beaf5492-e733-42b2-8752-1ba11ab5d613
swupnil
Rookie
@theSHAMOO looks like you’re using the Trimmed Video setting which is still in beta and has some edge cases where the trimming doesn’t quite work as intended. For the best reliability I would suggest changing your Video Backup preferences back to Entire Video.
theSHAMOO
Rookie
I will do this. Thanks for the tip
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
when you select 1 set, it does not allow you to select 10 pt match tiebreak. plus that would be confusing.
isn't the current 10 pt tiebreak in lieu of playing a 3rd set?
so if you want to play only tiebreaks and not sets, then should have a 0 set or tiebreak only option?
also in settings. can you explain the point keeping types and how they differ? i.e. game by game, point by point +, point by point.
i believe the tutorial only shows one set of instructions.
swupnil
Rookie
@ichaseballs oops that might be a bug on the watch app but phone app definitely lets you do 1 set and 10-pt tiebreak. In general the 10 pt tiebreak is for the "final set" regardless of whether you're doing best of 1/3/5.
We will add a dedicated Tiebreaks only option just don't have the bandwidth to do that right now as it's a more substantial change. It will be really cool though and you will be able to do sort of like unlimited tiebreaks back to back, almost like each "set" is just a tiebreak.
We will add a dedicated Tiebreaks only option just don't have the bandwidth to do that right now as it's a more substantial change. It will be really cool though and you will be able to do sort of like unlimited tiebreaks back to back, almost like each "set" is just a tiebreak.
This happens more in normal zoom when the ball leaves the frame? It happens less in wide angle or ultra wide angle
swupnil
Rookie
@theSHAMOO Processing doesn’t require any extra storage but it does require RAM to load the frames into memory. This is harder to document but can be constrained if you have a lot of other apps running background processes, or you have an old device with limited RAM.
Tennis_Flamingo
New User
@swupnil Two questions:
Thanks!
- Any idea on when 4k processing would be available? I know real-time 4k would be really resource intensive for a iPhone, but could this be made available for pre-recorded sessions?
- Maybe first beta release with processing only allowed on MacOS desktop?
- When you're optimizing for iPhone, does the software take shortcuts (skip frames, use lower quality/resolution frames, etc) when analyzing?
- If this optimizing makes for slightly less accurate readings (location, frame used for hit and bounce, etc), could we use full data when processing already recording sessions (even if only on MacOS desktop)?
Thanks!
swupnil
Rookie
@Tennis_Flamingo given the size of our startup it’s really important that we maintain consistent functionality and simplify as much as possible. Additionally, real-time processing is >95% of the subscriber base (and strictly increasing each month).
With that said, we will launch 4K this year. We need to get a better understanding on which phones will be able to support and also what the cloud costs will look like. This will likely have to be its own SwingVision Ultra tier for the super users.
And yes, we are vastly clocking down the A.I. to support real-time. We have some major updates coming in Q2 that will roughly double the resolution and frame rate that the A.I. processes the video. A lot of this is just hardcore A.I. R&D, and we will eventually get to the point of squeezing out everything we can with real-time processing as we can on a desktop.
Until that point, again for simplicity of code base and feature/bug management, the same experience will be enforced on all devices.
With that said, we will launch 4K this year. We need to get a better understanding on which phones will be able to support and also what the cloud costs will look like. This will likely have to be its own SwingVision Ultra tier for the super users.
And yes, we are vastly clocking down the A.I. to support real-time. We have some major updates coming in Q2 that will roughly double the resolution and frame rate that the A.I. processes the video. A lot of this is just hardcore A.I. R&D, and we will eventually get to the point of squeezing out everything we can with real-time processing as we can on a desktop.
Until that point, again for simplicity of code base and feature/bug management, the same experience will be enforced on all devices.
Tennis_Flamingo
New User
Awesome, thanks for the super quick and clear info. For cloud costs relating to 4k, is that primarily cost related to storage? Or is there some type of computing also being done in cloud?
For potential Ultra tier pricing: would limiting the amount of 4k recording backed up in the cloud but allowing local 4k backup on phone help with pricing? When running out of 4k space, other sessions could just be uploaded as downscaled to 1080. I'm primarily thinking of how Google Photos separates downscaled backups vs storage for paying extra for uncompressed.
Thanks again for the super informative posts. Looking forward to trying out the new Swing Stick you all just released! I just placed my order
happyloman
Professional
swupnil
Rookie
@Tennis_Flamingo it’s mainly cloud costs. Not just for storage but also access, playing over a network, and converting it to h264. All incur lots of costs. Downscaling prior to upload is really challenging as iOS would only let such a process occur in the foreground with the app open. Lots of complexities and ultimately the cleanest would be to fully support it or not support it at all. I think an Ultra tier with some additional exclusive functionality would probably be the best solution.
@happyloman sorry that’s in beta! Email us at supoort@swing.tennis and we can get you access it’s quite fun for serve practice and ball machine. Hoping to release it publicly soon but the UX needs a little polish.
@happyloman sorry that’s in beta! Email us at supoort@swing.tennis and we can get you access
it’s quite fun for serve practice and ball machine. Hoping to release it publicly soon but the UX needs a little polish.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
I heard in Cracked Racket podcast during college matches that this Swingvision AI linecalling device is now ready for Prime time and will be used in College D1 matches soon..... Is this true ? I thought this device still had some flaws ? If its good enough for D1 college tennis, it should be good enough for Amateur USTA tennis.... we should be using this in league matches too soon then ?Even just on practice mode it also logs your exercise within the fitness app. Useful if you are concerned about your exercise and move stats.
swupnil
Rookie
@2ndServe on its own (if you wear it on your forehand hitting arm) it will automatically track your workout (calories, distance, heart rate) and shot stats to a limited amount (type, spin & swing speed, but no placement, rally length, etc.). You can also manually keep score to get match stats.
With the phone, the watch allows you to do all of the above, get more stats on shot placement/accuracy for all 4 players, start/stop recordings, favorite/bookmark rallies for your highlight reel, challenge line calls, and get automated scoring.
@Nostradamus correct, it will be first used in junior events. Then adult leagues. Then college. Working up the chain now with junior events hopefully piloting this summer.
In our testing, when compared to a 16-camera system, it is accurate enough for college today in that it can determine close calls (landing within 10cm of a line) more accurately than the players. It still makes mistakes on easy calls, so it can't really be used like "Hawkeye Live" (yet) but it can & should be used by all players outside of ATP/WTA for challenging close calls. It is objectively better than trying to guess what happened with human eyes, and it treats both players fairly without bias. This is assuming you are setup on the fence, using 1x zoom and 1080p recording on an iPhone/iPad built in the last couple years.
With the phone, the watch allows you to do all of the above, get more stats on shot placement/accuracy for all 4 players, start/stop recordings, favorite/bookmark rallies for your highlight reel, challenge line calls, and get automated scoring.
@Nostradamus correct, it will be first used in junior events. Then adult leagues. Then college. Working up the chain now with junior events hopefully piloting this summer.
In our testing, when compared to a 16-camera system, it is accurate enough for college today in that it can determine close calls (landing within 10cm of a line) more accurately than the players. It still makes mistakes on easy calls, so it can't really be used like "Hawkeye Live" (yet) but it can & should be used by all players outside of ATP/WTA for challenging close calls. It is objectively better than trying to guess what happened with human eyes, and it treats both players fairly without bias. This is assuming you are setup on the fence, using 1x zoom and 1080p recording on an iPhone/iPad built in the last couple years.
Addxyz
Hall of Fame
Is there a link for it?
Here is a link but it appears to be the old one https://swing.tennis/shop/phone-mount-offer. They just came out with a new one….maybe I just got a pre-production version. Mind you, I did pay for it…and it was considerably less than what I paid for the inferior original.
Would a move to h265 help to reduce those cloud storage and network bandwidth costs?@Tennis_Flamingo it’s mainly cloud costs. Not just for storage but also access, playing over a network, and converting it to h264. All incur lots of costs. Downscaling prior to upload is really challenging as iOS would only let such a process occur in the foreground with the app open. Lots of complexities and ultimately the cleanest would be to fully support it or not support it at all. I think an Ultra tier with some additional exclusive functionality would probably be the best solution.
@happyloman sorry that’s in beta! Email us at supoort@swing.tennis and we can get you access
initialize
Hall of Fame
@swupnil
Sorry if these have been asked before, but:
1) if I delete a video, do those stats get deleted from my total stat count? For example, I'm keeping count of my total number of serves I've ever hit with the "statistics" feature, but if I delete a video with me serving, do those serve stats get deleted?
2) will the audio synchronization get fixed? On some videos the audio gets completely misaligned. Very annoying when I hear the sound of the ball off the racket before I even see myself hit the ball lol
Sorry if these have been asked before, but:
1) if I delete a video, do those stats get deleted from my total stat count? For example, I'm keeping count of my total number of serves I've ever hit with the "statistics" feature, but if I delete a video with me serving, do those serve stats get deleted?
2) will the audio synchronization get fixed? On some videos the audio gets completely misaligned. Very annoying when I hear the sound of the ball off the racket before I even see myself hit the ball lol
happyloman
Professional
Agree, audio/video synchronization is a common problem I've been encountering
swupnil
Rookie
@Addxyz sorry we just sold out but since you posted a while back, if you DM me, we'd be happy to get you one of our reserve units at our warehouse. Feedback has been great and we've made some tweaks. Looking to ramp up production by June!
@hurworld our Trimmed Video setting in the app actually uses h265, but we still need to convert to h264 to have smooth playback on non-Apple devices sadly
@initialize (1) yep, deleting a session will remove the stats from your history; (2) we haven't actually had many reports of the AV sync issue recently so this is super surprising. Are you seeing this in the app or when you export highlights? Also are you using the "Trimmed Video" option for your Video Backup preferences in the app? Either way, please shoot us an email with some session links to support@swing.tennis - our engineers would love to take a look.
@hurworld our Trimmed Video setting in the app actually uses h265, but we still need to convert to h264 to have smooth playback on non-Apple devices sadly
@initialize (1) yep, deleting a session will remove the stats from your history; (2) we haven't actually had many reports of the AV sync issue recently so this is super surprising. Are you seeing this in the app or when you export highlights? Also are you using the "Trimmed Video" option for your Video Backup preferences in the app? Either way, please shoot us an email with some session links to support@swing.tennis - our engineers would love to take a look.
swupnil
Rookie
@theSHAMOO we have autoscoring in beta if you’d like to try it! It will add the scores to the video automatically but you can correct individual points if any mistakes come about. DM me your username in the app and we can set you up!
