Swing weight: the biggest gap between Next Gen and old guard

#51
A friend of mine who personally knows Soderling told me that he added an extra 40gr. to his racquet prior to the French Open back in 2009 and we all know the result. ;)

Adding in more weight not only helps defense, making the frame more stable, but also produces heavier shots. You just have to be very fit and have impeccable timing to maneuver with it.

Speaking from personal experience, I've played against guys in the past that are buffer and had heavier rackets than mine and could literally feel my frame wobbling and losing stability when trying to deflect some of that power back to the other side of the net. After I added weight to both handle and top they were not that daunting. Of course then I couldn't play more than a set at that level which meant more hours at the gym.
I remember Soderling having only a hard flat forehand, which is a limited game.
 
#53
.... And why do you think Stan the man with his heavy swingweight racquets is so far behind the baseline when returning serve?
OHBH on the rise is way more SW sensitive, and Stan is like... The GOAt of it. His position returning serve related to sw? Total Nonsense. Best returners often use High SW. Nalby, Dojoko....
 
#55
OHBH on the rise is way more SW sensitive, and Stan is like... The GOAt of it. His position returning serve related to sw? Total Nonsense. Best returners often use High SW. Nalby, Dojoko....
I dont think Stan the man his slice returns, even with his forehand, very far behind the baseline qualifies as very good. Probably the reason why he never got top 5. His very heavy racquet snd swingweight have everything to do with that. Nadal moved even futther behind the baseline while returning otherwise he would also be late with his strokes.
 
#56
I'm talking about OHBH on the rise in general. How can you explain the 390+ sw of Nalbandian then? The truth is that SW has very little to do with return quality. I don't think that Federer, lowering his SW with the bigger racquet, has better return than before. Us, recreational players, want to believe that new generation pros use same racquet as we do, with low SW, so we can swing a "pro" racquet without demanding too much. I don't think it is true at all.

PS : Chung racquet has lead everywhere on the hoop, by the way. https://www.google.com/search?q=hye...AUIDygC&biw=1402&bih=727#imgrc=eSK6xb_bYisfFM:
 
#57
NextGen Swingweights:

Tiafoe is around 330
Chung is 337
De Minaur is 340
Tsitsipas is 343
Thiem was 340, now 345
Kyrgios is 340
Rublev is 340
Khachanov is around 335

Stock racquets, for reference, are generally around mid 320s swingweight. The trend is downwards, no doubt about it. Older touring pros are often around the high 340s to mid 350s range. 360+ swingweights are turning into a thing of the past. The one NextGen player with a high swingweight (Zverev, 360SW) struggles to play anything other than controlled defense and it shows in best of 5s.

You see it in the way the players strike the ball with the crazy racquet head speed and takebacks while getting less mileage through the court. Just the way the game is transitioning--players growing up with Pure Drives rather than 90 inch 12 ounce behemoths.
 
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#59
NextGen Swingweights:

Tiafoe is around 330
Chung is 337
De Minaur is 340
Tsitsipas is 343
Thiem was 340, now 345
Kyrgios is 340
Rublev is 340
Khachanov is around 335

Stock racquets, for reference, are generally around mid 320s swingweight. The trend is downwards, no doubt about it. Older touring pros are often around the high 340s to mid 350s range. 360+ swingweights are turning into a thing of the past. The one NextGen player with a high swingweight (Zverev, 360SW) struggles to play anything other than controlled defense and it shows in best of 5s.

You see it in the way the players strike the ball with the crazy racquet head speed and takebacks while getting less mileage through the court. Just the way the game is transitioning--players growing up with Pure Drives rather than 90 inch 12 ounce behemoths.
Absolutely I think this is a factor in the NextGen failure.
 
#62
I'm talking about OHBH on the rise in general. How can you explain the 390+ sw of Nalbandian then? The truth is that SW has very little to do with return quality. I don't think that Federer, lowering his SW with the bigger racquet, has better return than before. Us, recreational players, want to believe that new generation pros use same racquet as we do, with low SW, so we can swing a "pro" racquet without demanding too much. I don't think it is true at all.

PS : Chung racquet has lead everywhere on the hoop, by the way. https://www.google.com/search?q=hye...AUIDygC&biw=1402&bih=727#imgrc=eSK6xb_bYisfFM:
Well most nextgen players use double handend backhands and Tsitsi with his one hander hits terrific backhands with a reasonable light racquet. Then Chung has some lead on the hoop but not much. Believe it or not i play with a Tour g 310 and experiment with lead placement. Therefor i conclude Chung has not much lead on the hoop, only a few gr. Most of the extra weight is on the handle.
iWhy mention Nalbandian? The guy stopped years ago and there is much controversary about the racquet he played with. To me the headsize looked significanty bigger than the midsize some mentioned.
 
#63
They need to try my racquet and see what they are made of.

Nothing special, in the past during the wooden racquet area everyone had to play with very heavy racquets, even juniors and women. Therefor you saw lots of boring long rallys back then. Remember Chris Evert on Wimbledon. So heavy racquets are really oldskool, not nextgen.
 
#64
1)No one seriously mentioned a mid headsize for Nalbandian... He uses 98 sqinch.
2)I mentioned him because you were trying to say that Waw - and other high SW users - return far from his baseline because of their SW... Nonsense. This is technical choices from them. Nothing to do with the racquet.
3)Don't you see Chung's racquet on the link I putted? There is lead ALL AROUND the hoop, buddy.

In my opinion, SW affects less the player than his own strategy. And it's nonsense to believe that his placement is the SW's slave. It certainly affects racquet head path and speed, but the rest is pure speculation.
 
#65
1)No one seriously mentioned a mid headsize for Nalbandian... He uses 98 sqinch.
2)I mentioned him because you were trying to say that Waw - and other high SW users - return far from his baseline because of their SW... Nonsense. This is technical choices from them. Nothing to do with the racquet.
3)Don't you see Chung's racquet on the link I putted? There is lead ALL AROUND the hoop, buddy.

In my opinion, SW affects less the player than his own strategy. And it's nonsense to believe that his placement is the SW's slave. It certainly affects racquet head path and speed, but the rest is pure speculation.
I appearantly gauge Stans intelligence far higher than you do. It would not be a smart move to hit slow easy slice forehand returns far from behind the baseline if it were a tactical move. But he is forced to that because of his high swingweight. Another evidence for this is that he chooses to go even farther behind the baseline to hit a topspin return that would be a lot more effective if hit closer to the baseline.
I dont talk nonsense, you do. All you people do is repeat what others claim without real critical thinking.
 
#66
We saw it with Shapovalov-Djokovic. It can look almost comic, to see one player wasping away, and the other handling it, redirecting it.
Perhaps when the older generation hangs it up, we will be left with the 330-340 sw crowd. And people will awe at "Look at how "fast" they are playing, its an new era...".
 
#68
I fundamentally believe young players with lighter frames are exploited by the status quo when they are on the defensive because their frames lack the swingweight, and or recoil weight, required to turn defense into offense in awkward court positions. (Nadal is an extraordinary exception)
as for me, all pros play with one and the same racquet (which is not available for sale) which may be just different in string pattern and paintjob/design, until the opposite has been proven by a neutral expert (which i suppose will never happen). that's why i think all discussions about pros racquet specs are pretty hard to lead until the real specs are officially published by the manufacturers and confirmed by neutral testers who apply unitary testing standards (re flex of the hoop/neck, used materials, and similar specs which are not obviously visible/provable).
 
#69
I appearantly gauge Stans intelligence far higher than you do. It would not be a smart move to hit slow easy slice forehand returns far from behind the baseline if it were a tactical move. But he is forced to that because of his high swingweight. Another evidence for this is that he chooses to go even farther behind the baseline to hit a topspin return that would be a lot more effective if hit closer to the baseline.
I dont talk nonsense, you do. All you people do is repeat what others claim without real critical thinking.
Yeah, yeah, you are right. All we people repeat things, and you're the only one to have the truth. I gave you examples of high SW users who have very high return reactions, and you just blah blah because your love so much your little theory. You don't need that to play your elite tennis with low SW. Give Stan a break.
 
#70
1)No one seriously mentioned a mid headsize for Nalbandian... He uses 98 sqinch.
2)I mentioned him because you were trying to say that Waw - and other high SW users - return far from his baseline because of their SW... Nonsense. This is technical choices from them. Nothing to do with the racquet.
3)Don't you see Chung's racquet on the link I putted? There is lead ALL AROUND the hoop, buddy.

In my opinion, SW affects less the player than his own strategy. And it's nonsense to believe that his placement is the SW's slave. It certainly affects racquet head path and speed, but the rest is pure speculation.
Don't bother with that guy. Just add to ignore list. I said what I thought was going on and they removed the post.

Stan blocks/slices because his grips are too extreme. Try swapping from a western forehand to a western backhand in less than a second... That's why he uses continental; he can return off both wings. Big weakness around really fast guys who can get around that and are good at dictating from the middle (creating angle), but he clearly made it work enough times.

Nadal for example on the flip side has a really low twist weight on his racquet (comparative to how high the SW is now). Gives him more max spin, but at the cost of forgiveness. So he backs up further. Racquet has a lower recoil weight. So in both directions of stability he has less than other players. He backs up further so the ball will slow down more and he can time that ball more cleanly. If anyone can pull off the deep baseline play it's rafa, so it works for him.


Return game is an art. Really one of the most fun parts of tennis.
 
#71
There have been multiple Kyrgios match used racquets for sale on other sites with strung specs of 340g to 343g and 322kg to 326kg swingweight. That aligns with your typical Ezone XI 98 with a leather grip. Kyrgios has also stated that he used lead tape when he was young but got rid of it once he got physically stronger. That Kyrgios video clip was posted somewhere here on TT.

I'm not posting this to enter a debate over pro swingweights, I just think it's interesting information.
Just imagine what Nick K and the rest of the gen-xers could do if they had properly high SW then. maybe explains why they are losing to old men.
 
#72
I strongly disagree. Goffin with his light Wilson blade in stockweight has excellent defensive strokes. Like my old coach said, you first have to be on time at the ball otherwise you cant even hit it. And Chung with his relative light racquet is a counter example of your statement too.
I totally agree. So true.
 
#76
#77
Stan blocks/slices because his grips are too extreme. Try swapping from a western forehand to a western backhand in less than a second... That's why he uses continental; he can return off both wings.
Wawrinka uses a semi-western forehand and an eastern backhand (same backhand grip as Federer). Not that hard to switch. I honestly think it's more of a comfort and preference thing. Federer chipped and sliced returns for years due to comfort, even when it might not have been the best idea (particularly against Nadal). Sure, he did it from closer to the court, but players looking to go for a consistent opening and relying on their baseline game to win a return point isn't an uncommon strategy. Federer used it, and Nadal still uses it.

I dont think Stan the man his slice returns, even with his forehand, very far behind the baseline qualifies as very good. Probably the reason why he never got top 5. His very heavy racquet snd swingweight have everything to do with that. Nadal moved even futther behind the baseline while returning otherwise he would also be late with his strokes.
As for the idea of high swingweights being prohibitive to aggressive, close-to-the-baseline returning, here's a shortlist of players who returned from close to the baseline with "high" swingweights just off the top of my head:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Agassi
4) Davydenko
5) Sampras
6) Blake
7) Roddick
8) Connors

Sure, the offensive potency of these players vary, but a few of these are known as very good returners (Djokovic, Agassi, Federer, Blake, Connors). Clearly, high swingweights and static weights are not a detrimental spec for returning, since 5 of these players are on the shortlist for greatest returners of all time. It just comes down to the type of game you grew up with. Agassi was taught to take the ball early. Djokovic and Blake wanted to be like Agassi. Federer is a master of getting a racket on the ball and neutralizing the serve.

Also:

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/stan-wawrinka/w367/rankings-history

Scroll around. His career high ATP ranking is #3. He was in the top 5 from June 2015 to August 2017. 2 straight years as a top 5 player. He also had a length of time as a top 5 player from January of 2014 to January of 2015, a whole year. Whether you believe his decision to slice returns was a good one or not, he won 3 majors, spent a lot of time in the top 5, and took the #3 spot in the face of Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic.

And finally, Soderling's game was only limited by mono. I won't say he would be the next big player to compete with Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic for major titles, but at the very least he would make several deep runs if not for the disease.
 
#79
I think what you're not accounting for is that the way you as rec players play, and the way they do with their schedule with training and all is much much different. This is their career, they're out multiple sessions a day, whilst some racquet spec setups lend themselves to a "better" shot the biggest difference is on the physical side. Of course at the highest level as professionals you'd want the best possible setup but no 2 players are made equal. With the amount of hitting they do on a basis they've got their racquets specced the way they are for a reason.

Just my thought when I see you guys saying that someone is not as good of a player due to "their racquet being weighted wrong"

At the end of the day players should hit with what they feel works for them and what they like. The intensity of what these guys play at is at an elite level, and if having a slightly lighter racquet will help their endurance in a long match then so be it
 
#80
I would have thought that if high swing weight was proven as successful the trend amongst pro players would be upward rather than downward. Players are getting bigger and stronger but are not playing with a 900gm swing weight racquet?
 
#81
I would have thought that if high swing weight was proven as successful the trend amongst pro players would be upward rather than downward. Players are getting bigger and stronger but are not playing with a 900gm swing weight racquet?
My analysis from a 2005 racquet spec snapshot suggested that the optimum swingweight is about 365, with swingweight the main separator between players ranked 20 in the world and players ranked 80 in the world. The trend seems to still hold, except clearly now it is not only swingweight, but also the generation that separates these groups:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ce-new-racquet-spec-data-for-atp-pros.387620/
 
#82
My analysis from a 2005 racquet spec snapshot suggested that the optimum swingweight is about 365, with swingweight the main separator between players ranked 20 in the world and players ranked 80 in the world. The trend seems to still hold, except clearly now it is not only swingweight, but also the generation that separates these groups:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ce-new-racquet-spec-data-for-atp-pros.387620/
We can safely state that 14 year old data is oldskool. New nextgen players are clearly newskool. If tennis wisdom were based on old insight we all would still be playing with 400+ gr small headed wooden racquets strung with overly expensive gut from 50 to 100 years ago :(
 
#84
We can safely state that 14 year old data is oldskool. New nextgen players are clearly newskool. If tennis wisdom were based on old insight we all would still be playing with 400+ gr small headed wooden racquets strung with overly expensive gut from 50 to 100 years ago :(
In that case, we can safely state that oldskool >>> newskool.
 
#91
1)No one seriously mentioned a mid headsize for Nalbandian... He uses 98 sqinch.
2)I mentioned him because you were trying to say that Waw - and other high SW users - return far from his baseline because of their SW... Nonsense. This is technical choices from them. Nothing to do with the racquet.
3)Don't you see Chung's racquet on the link I putted? There is lead ALL AROUND the hoop, buddy.

In my opinion, SW affects less the player than his own strategy. And it's nonsense to believe that his placement is the SW's slave. It certainly affects racquet head path and speed, but the rest is pure speculation.
This^^^^ I find it ridiculous at the amount of emphasis that people are putting on racquet specs and swingweight for a players results. Just because rec players find that they hit heavier and better with 50 grams DOES NOT mean that if a pro did the same they'd have flaws in their games patched (return of serves, heavier groundies etc) The game is getting faster and faster, strokes are becoming more "unorthodox" with topspin heavy forehands being on the rise compared to flat strokes as well.

Seriously you guys need a reality check, I doubt you've had the opportunity to hit against or play a set vs players at a professional level at their high intensity. Your tennis and their tennis is 2 different things, they play with the specs they do because it works for them and it's what they feel comfortable at the end of the day which is what matters.
 
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