Switched to Full Western on forehand

S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I made an important post-pandemic change. I switched from a SW Federer grip on FH to a Full Western Nadal grip.

So much better. I now believe that hitting topspin and dealing with incoming topspin both REQUIRE the FW grip for stability. It is just impossible to get the timing and racket face angle correct otherwise.
 
The standard Federer SW grip is really an extreme Eastern. That is, an Eastern grip with a SW flavor. Likewise, the Nadal Fh grip is not really a full Western. It is more of a 3/4 Western. About halfway between a standard SW and a full Western grip. Nishikori is closer to a full Western than Rafa Nadal is.

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Photo Tour of Male Pro Forehand Grips

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SystemicAnomaly said:
The standard Federer SW grip is really an extreme Eastern. That is, an Eastern grip with a SW flavor. Likewise, the Nadal Fh grip is not really a full Western. It is more of a 3/4 Western. About halfway between a standard SW and a full Western grip. Nishikori is closer to a full Western than Rafa Nadal is.

www.liveabout.com

Photo Tour of Male Pro Forehand Grips

Explore the nuances and variation behind your favorite male tennis star's forehand grip, complete with images and commentary.
www.liveabout.com www.liveabout.com
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I think the straight-arm attack on the ball makes Nadal's forehand grip look more extreme than it is.
 
For anyone over age 35, the only way you can use FW is if your opponent hits the ball directly to you, every time.
 
And the contact point is typically further from the body for a Full W than it would be for an extreme E. Of course YMMV, especially if you use a straight-arm technique

ftptennis.net

Section 01 - The Forehand Contact Point Explained - FTP Tennis

Introduction The ball is in contact with the racquet for only a couple of milliseconds, but those few milliseconds are crucial to hitting an effective shot. If the racquet face is anything but vertical there will be virtually no chance … Continue reading →
ftptennis.net
 
Shroud said:
Hey @tlm don't you use a full western?
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Yep most of the time I use a western grip. There are times I use a SW grip but 90% of the time I use full western and at times I go with a Hawaiian grip. If the ball is too low I will switch to a continental and chip it back.
 
tlm said:
Yep most of the time I use a western grip. There are times I use a SW grip but 90% of the time I use full western and at times I go with a Hawaiian grip. If the ball is too low I will switch to a continental and chip it back.
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can you hit with the FW on the run? Some one posted that over 35 its impossible to hit that shot on the run. Like at your age its impossible right :)
 
sureshs said:
I made an important post-pandemic change. I switched from a SW Federer grip on FH to a Full Western Nadal grip.

So much better. I now believe that hitting topspin and dealing with incoming topspin both REQUIRE the FW grip for stability. It is just impossible to get the timing and racket face angle correct otherwise.
Click to expand...
Nice man I hit with full western with an sock looking takeback but the rest isn't as ugly because the rest resembles more of a djoko, fed swing pattern after i make contact (somewhat)
 
FW grip requires you to hit so far in front that most people are not qualified to use this grip.
Particularly middle aged players well past their fitness prime.
Most people are so unfit that after 1 set, they are hitting late on even a basic SW grip.
Even ATP pros don't use FW. LOL
 
Here is a video from a couple of years ago. I was using close to full western grip then and that was at 61 years old. Now I am using a more extreme western grip than in the past.



 
sureshs said:
I made an important post-pandemic change. I switched from a SW Federer grip on FH to a Full Western Nadal grip.

So much better. I now believe that hitting topspin and dealing with incoming topspin both REQUIRE the FW grip for stability. It is just impossible to get the timing and racket face angle correct otherwise.
Click to expand...

If sureshs switched to Full Western, then I'm switching to Hawaiian. Gotta be one step ahead of sureshs.

Aloha! here I come.

kauai-hawaii-august-11-aloha-260nw-116405059.jpg
 
E46luver said:
For anyone over age 35, the only way you can use FW is if your opponent hits the ball directly to you, every time.
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Wrong. It is working very well. I am even able to flatten shots with it, as well as produce topspin and sidespin. For very low balls, I use a conti grip and just scoop it up.
 
tlm said:
Here is a video from a couple of years ago. I was using close to full western grip then and that was at 61 years old. Now I am using a more extreme western grip than in the past.



Click to expand...

You seem to have discovered the Holy Grail before me.

All this talk about ATP forehand can be translated to reality only with a FW grip.
 
sureshs said:
You seem to have discovered the Holy Grail before me.

All this talk about ATP forehand can be translated to reality only with a FW grip.
Click to expand...

I found that the western grip worked a few years ago while hitting with my ball machine. I was hitting forehands and many were going long so I started closing the grip some and I noticed my control improved. So then I closed the racket even more and I was swinging away and all my shots were staying in. When I checked my grip I was surprised how extreme it was, so I would experiment between my old SW grip to more towards western then strong western and the strong western grip won out every time.
 
tlm said:
I found that the western grip worked a few years ago while hitting with my ball machine. I was hitting forehands and many were going long so I started closing the grip some and I noticed my control improved. So then I closed the racket even more and I was swinging away and all my shots were staying in. When I checked my grip I was surprised how extreme it was, so I would experiment between my old SW grip to more towards western then strong western and the strong western grip won out every time.
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Why do you think it’s so rare? The strong Western or even the normal western grip.
 
Curious said:
Why do you think it’s so rare? The strong Western or even the normal western grip.
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Painful to hold for lots of people, including myself. And it only complicates the stroke and lengthens your cycle. When it's easier to get your racquet into takeback position and bring it around, you can respond more quickly. And time is of essence. If I COULD hit a really flat, hard mild Eastern FH, I would. But I can't, I am too used to putting spin now. But even when I took coaching, the coach in fact made us stick to a Eastern, maybe EE, grip and learn to produce spin through the swingpath and through RHS. That way, you have more control over it too. And you can get underneath low balls more easily. Others may have a different take but I think in rec tennis, having the ability to handle low balls well is important.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Painful to hold for lots of people, including myself. And it only complicates the stroke and lengthens your cycle. When it's easier to get your racquet into takeback position and bring it around, you can respond more quickly. And time is of essence. If I COULD hit a really flat, hard mild Eastern FH, I would. But I can't, I am too used to putting spin now. But even when I took coaching, the coach in fact made us stick to a Eastern, maybe EE, grip and learn to produce spin through the swingpath and through RHS. That way, you have more control over it too. And you can get underneath low balls more easily. Others may have a different take but I think in rec tennis, having the ability to handle low balls well is important.
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Your concerns don't apply to me. I don't respond quickly, so it doesn't matter :). Low balls I change to conti and scoop up.

I simply couldn't get the correct racket face angle with any decent swing length with any other grip, especially with incoming topspin. Playing with old linear farts was easy with SW grip, but not with younger players.
 
sureshs said:
Your concerns don't apply to me. I don't respond quickly, so it doesn't matter :). Low balls I change to conti and scoop up.

I simply couldn't get the correct racket face angle with any decent swing length with any other grip, especially with incoming topspin. Playing with old linear farts was easy with SW grip, but not with younger players.
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Um, @Curious asked why it's rare and I answered that. Far be it for me to tell the resident genius how to hit a forehand.
 
tlm said:
I rarely see rec players using western grip, most are eastern or SW.
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Most of them are old too.

Wait for some years when the Nadal generation joins the rec leagues, and it will be different. I already see more 2 handed backhands and Babolats among younger men joining the club while the older ones are all Wilson and 1 handed.
 
I tried Western for a bit but found it was pretty useless in my tennis circles. Too many low bounces out here in the PNW and too many people hitting shots to take advantage of that. Unless you can really get low (and my knees no longer can) the Western grip just ends up netting too many balls.

When i face old guys with Western grips I just try to keep the ball low and short. All they can do is generally hit weak slice and you can attack that.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I tried Western for a bit but found it was pretty useless in my tennis circles. Too many low bounces out here in the PNW and too many people hitting shots to take advantage of that. Unless you can really get low (and my knees no longer can) the Western grip just ends up netting too many balls.

When i face old guys with Western grips I just try to keep the ball low and short. All they can do is generally hit weak slice and you can attack that.
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Is this off of feeds or serves?

Dead ball drills involve a lot of low hitting, but when I play a real match, kick serves are the perfect opportunity to start pushing height and spin on those flat hitters.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I tried Western for a bit but found it was pretty useless in my tennis circles. Too many low bounces out here in the PNW and too many people hitting shots to take advantage of that. Unless you can really get low (and my knees no longer can) the Western grip just ends up netting too many balls.

When i face old guys with Western grips I just try to keep the ball low and short. All they can do is generally hit weak slice and you can attack that.
Click to expand...

I rarely hit the net because with a Western grip and all the spin it enables you can use more net clearance. Sure you can try hitting low and short but depending on who gets the upper hand starting the point that may not be possible. Once a heavy spin ground stroke rally gets started it will be tough to hit low and short. Im looking for the short ball as long as it’s not real low I’m going to attack it.
 
tlm said:
I rarely hit the net because with a Western grip and all the spin it enables you can use more net clearance. Sure you can try hitting low and short but depending on who gets the upper hand starting the point that may not be possible. Once a heavy spin ground stroke rally gets started it will be tough to hit low and short. Im looking for the short ball as long as it’s not real low I’m going to attack it.
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Its like we are polar opposites. Even with a western grip I was hitting a lowish trajectory. Check it out at about 4:07 I got bored and just started hitting with the western. I had a western for a long time and found transitioning to the SW to be amazingly difficult. But I am there now and If I have to I can hit the western. I will try it next time I am out.

 
Shroud said:
Its like we are polar opposites. Even with a western grip I was hitting a lowish trajectory. Check it out at about 4:07 I got bored and just started hitting with the western. I had a western for a long time and found transitioning to the SW to be amazingly difficult. But I am there now and If I have to I can hit the western. I will try it next time I am out.

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I wish I had a more natural flat trajectory like you do, I thought you hit pretty well with the Western grip.
 
tlm said:
I wish I had a more natural flat trajectory like you do, I thought you hit pretty well with the Western grip.
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Well then you might be better friends with the net....

New racquet and I think it might work with the western. Will see. But that heavy high trajectory ball seems to be beyond me. And control. You have all that dude.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
The standard Federer SW grip is really an extreme Eastern. That is, an Eastern grip with a SW flavor. Likewise, the Nadal Fh grip is not really a full Western. It is more of a 3/4 Western. About halfway between a standard SW and a full Western grip. Nishikori is closer to a full Western than Rafa Nadal is.

www.liveabout.com

Photo Tour of Male Pro Forehand Grips

Explore the nuances and variation behind your favorite male tennis star's forehand grip, complete with images and commentary.
www.liveabout.com www.liveabout.com
Click to expand...
I'm convinced that Nadal uses something more conservative like a vanilla SW or even an EE grip. Because he uses a small grip his knuckle placement is going to make it look more extreme than it actually is.

I use the EE grip on a grip 2 racquet and it looks like a strong SW grip.
 
Bender said:
I'm convinced that Nadal uses something more conservative like a vanilla SW or even an EE grip. Because he uses a small grip his knuckle placement is going to make it look more extreme than it actually is.

I use the EE grip on a grip 2 racquet and it looks like a strong SW grip.
Click to expand...
That depends on how you define grips, but I absolutely share your thought process. Gripping a racquet with index knuckle put against exact bevel will result in different RF orientation for thicker or thinner grip. Hand orientation - spread-along, or square across (hammer-style) - is another factor.
 
Bender said:
I'm convinced that Nadal uses something more conservative like a vanilla SW or even an EE grip. Because he uses a small grip his knuckle placement is going to make it look more extreme than it actually is.

I use the EE grip on a grip 2 racquet and it looks like a strong SW grip.
Click to expand...
I've seen some vids / images where Rafa's Fh grip does, indeed, appear to be a vanilla SW. In many others, it appears to be a more extreme version of the SW. Can't say that I've seen any where it appears to be a mild SW or an EE grip.

Could be that he changes it a bit from one surface to the next; or one shot to the next. Or, perhaps, his standard /average Fh grip has changed somewhat over the years.

Do you have links for images / vids where his grip appears to be close to an EE?
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
I've seen some vids / images where Rafa's Fh grip does, indeed, appear to be a vanilla SW. In many others, it appears to be a more extreme version of the SW. Can't say that I've seen any where it appears to be a mild SW or an EE grip.

Could be that he changes it a bit from one surface to the next; or one shot to the next. Or, perhaps, his standard /average Fh grip has changed somewhat over the years.

Do you have links for images / vids where his grip appears to be close to an EE?
Click to expand...

I first noticed it in a live match so I don’t have the particular clip at my disposal, but this is the closest I’ve got:

nadal-us-open-2019-qf-forehand.jpg


It’s pretty clear that the grip employed there is a vanilla SW at the very most extreme, but based on where the bevels are and his thumb + index finger placement, that looks almost exactly the same grip I’ve been using for years, which is an EE grip. For reference, I’m just over 6’0” and use a grip 2 Babolat Pure Strike.
 
Bender said:
I first noticed it in a live match so I don’t have the particular clip at my disposal, but this is the closest I’ve got:

nadal-us-open-2019-qf-forehand.jpg


It’s pretty clear that the grip employed there is a vanilla SW at the very most extreme, but based on where the bevels are and his thumb + index finger placement, that looks almost exactly the same grip I’ve been using for years, which is an EE grip. For reference, I’m just over 6’0” and use a grip 2 Babolat Pure Strike.
Click to expand...

Grip 2 is 4 1/4"?

tenor.gif
 
@Shroud
Chas Tennis said:
Fuzzy Yellow Balls video observation of Federer's forehand grip in 2009. This looks well done to define and show the grip.
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Not definitive. What Will Hamilton of FYB proved is that Federer hit SOME of his FHs with a classic Eastern grip. Ian W also came to a similar conclusion.

However, sometime earlier, in the early / mid 00s, Tennis Magazine indicated the Roger's FH grip was a modified Eastern (what we are calling an extreme Eastern here). They provided convincing photographic evidence of this.

Some years after the FYB claim, other credible sources have indicated that Roger uses an EE or modified Eastern grip. peRFect-tennis is one of these sources. Others include Top Tennis Training and the Tennis Channel.

Just as some sources show Rafa with a 3/4 Western while others show a conservative SW, some sources show Roger with a vanilla Eastern while others appear to show him using an EE.

Pretty sure I've also seen images of Roger employing FH grips, in the rear court, with a Continental or Continental flavor. Rather than his EE grip, he might employ a more conservative grip when hitting squash shots, dropshots, tweeners, and other specialty shots like the Bucharest Backfire.
 
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