Symmetrical (360 degree) rotational tennis - from discovery, practice to deployment in real match, in week!

In what time frame will the 2-handed 360 degree rotational stroke be adapted by elite tennis player?


  • Total voters
    25

oserver

Professional
Symmetrical C&C two-handed playing style on both sides provides tennis forms to increase the angular momentum of tennis shots, making tennis matches more intense, faster paced, more entertaining and watchable.

From discovery, practice to deployment in a real match, in a week!

Why making this video? Make some sensations? Yes, kind of. ! Imaging someone hit a 360 degree ace serve in high level matches, or a 360 degree winner form a none-dominant hand side, what audience would react.

From players perspective, these kinds of winning shots could be some kind tennis orgasm to make someone high:p

Too futuristic, maybe? Unrealistic, only time can tell.
 
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oserver

Professional
Practice for winner shot, a way to increase pace and spin suddenly to force errors. Compare the spinning shots I did six years ago when I was using one-handed forehand and backhand, these two-handed symmetrical shots are far superior. The ball-side hand holding the racket at the back made all the differences.


Love to hear the hitting sound! Music to my ears :)
 

Dragy

Legend
That would be fun to play against - the moment the opponent makes his shot, spinning hitter is just coming out of rotation, still at the same corner where the ball was, trying to catch the picture and regain balance o_O no recovery, no split step, no focused look... Great the ball machine gives you that break pause and always feeds to the middle(y)
 

oserver

Professional
You don’t do the 360 turn on most shots there. Why?
Haha, I like your humor! :-D I did six or seven consecutive spinning shots in practices, that was about the max I could do without getting dizzy:p You know I'm over 70, not a 17 years old ballet dancer:p
 

oserver

Professional
That would be fun to play against - the moment the opponent makes his shot, spinning hitter is just coming out of rotation, still at the same corner where the ball was, trying to catch the picture and regain balance o_O no recovery, no split step, no focused look... Great the ball machine gives you that break pause and always feeds to the middle(y)
You completely missed the third shot (red t-shirt in the match) at 1:00 of the video. I did a quick recovery from my right corner toward the T, faster than what I could do without the 360 degree.
 
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Dragy

Legend
You completely missed the second shot (red t-shirt in the match) at 1:00 of the video. I did a quick recovery from my right corner toward the T, faster than what I could do without the 360 degree.
Cmon man, you are cheating us or yourself? Here're you full second after contact, when you should be watching opponent's swing and initiating the splitstep, as half second later he's making contact:


You are not prepared!
 

oserver

Professional
Have you come across anyone that agrees with your views on 360 strokes?
Yes, I joined a tournament in Chinese about two years ago, one guy who showed me his spinning single-handed videos. People there treated him like a celebrity because the spinning shots!

Don't know why I have been ridicule so much here. Some cultural differences, I guess:p

As for elite players, we need to have some patient. Interestingly, Thiem kind of tried to do spinning serve but was clumsy. The reason was that he use closed stance to serve, no way to make a quick turn. The footage start at 2:13 -
 

oserver

Professional
Cmon man, you are cheating us or yourself? Here're you full second after contact, when you should be watching opponent's swing and initiating the splitstep, as half second later he's making contact:


You are not prepared!
How about the shots from 1:07, I did a spinning right shot from the far left side, then running to the right corner to return a wide angle shot by my opponent.

No way I can convince everybody. But If a guy over 70 could do things like this, think about someone has 17 year old legs!
 

Dragy

Legend
How about the shots from 1:07, I did a spinning right shot from the far left side, then running to the right corner to return a wide angle shot by my opponent.

No way I can convince everybody. But If a guy over 70 could do things like this, think about someone has 17 year old legs!
1 full second after contact. You are supposed to be at orange circle location if you hit CC or farther if you hit DTM/DTL. Initiating your splitstep.


It's not the age, it's your turning away wasting your time and blocking your vision of the opponent. You aren't aware in time of whether he steps in or falls back, how he approaches the ball, what kind of stroke he's winding up. You are in a bad position to react from. As long as you receive weak slow balls, you can run them down and bunt them back - you weren't there to setup a decent next shot, despite incoming ball being quite weak. All because you moved too late from a too bad recovery position, because you wasted time with the balet move.

I'm discussing this in all seriousness, lol wtf :-D
 

oserver

Professional
1 full second after contact. You are supposed to be at orange circle location if you hit CC or farther if you hit DTM/DTL. Initiating your splitstep.


It's not the age, it's your turning away wasting your time and blocking your vision of the opponent. You aren't aware in time of whether he steps in or falls back, how he approaches the ball, what kind of stroke he's winding up. You are in a bad position to react from. As long as you receive weak slow balls, you can run them down and bunt them back - you weren't there to setup a decent next shot, despite incoming ball being quite weak. All because you moved too late from a too bad recovery position, because you wasted time with the balet move.

I'm discussing this in all seriousness, lol wtf :-D
To answer your doubt, I thought it was worth the effort to assemble some photo frames of the third shot in the video. As you can see, line 1a in photo 3 (my initial stance at loading) and line 1b in photo 8 (end point of my feet rotation) are parallel to each other. So if you compare these two lines with line 2 in photo 8, I made a turn more than 270 degree in one step. Also, in photo 10 and 11, I had completed the 360 degree turn and faced the opponent side while I could see the ball and the hitting zone.

In case like this, there could be three different reaction from different tennis coaches -

Coach 1. Stop doing this! If elite players don't do, you shouldn't try to invent new wheels!
Coach 2. You should recover normally in reverse direction. (my question will be, doing so will be slower than what I did!)
Coach 3. As far as it is natural, occasionally doing a surprise shot like this is totally OK.

It's true I missed part of views of my opponent, but it doesn't affect my preparedness for the next shot at all. It's like trading stocks. A fundamentalist would dig out financial reports, sec filings, news, etc. to make buy/sell decisions, while a techy guy would mostly rely on a price chart or two to buy/sell instantly, believing most, if not all, are priced-in in the moment. So in the later case, why should I know everything my opponent did while I was facing my back fence? It's totally a none-issue if I can turn fast enough (I'm still training to get quick. It's only about two weeks since I started to do the two-handed 360 degree shots).

Apparently, you are type 1 if you are a coach, and I'm a type 3 coach :D

08/08/2020 360 degree rotational shot photos
 

Dragy

Legend
BTW I've been too demanding, I should give you another half second before recovery and splitstep initiation to react on opponent's shot at 2 sec after yours - we are not talking 5.0+. So for the first one you are more or less on time. For the second - still stuck wide regaining balance.
 

oserver

Professional
BTW I've been too demanding, I should give you another half second before recovery and splitstep initiation to react on opponent's shot at 2 sec after yours - we are not talking 5.0+. So for the first one you are more or less on time. For the second - still stuck wide regaining balance.
The shots you referred to were made 6 days on 07/28 after I made the unintentional 360 shot when I play the ball machine on 07/22. So what could people expect after just a few times practice in between? The third shot of the short 12 seconds video is the new standard now. Welcome your comments on this shot :D The detailed frames were provided in my previous post.
 

oserver

Professional
Hey @oserver, your opponent is going to figure out that he should drop shot you whenever you are looking the other way! (j/k)
No, my legs are still not that slow. I'm well known in the club to give drop shots. With symmetrical two-handed playing style, it's more effective now since I can do it without change my baseline grips (#4/#3). This means I can do the topspin/under-spin at the last moment, not easy for opponent to read what's coming.
 
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Dragy

Legend
To answer your doubt, I thought it was worth the effort to assemble some photo frames of the third shot in the video. As you can see, line 1a in photo 3 (my initial stance at loading) and line 1b in photo 8 (end point of my feet rotation) are parallel to each other. So if you compare these two lines with line 2 in photo 8, I made a turn more than 270 degree in one step. Also, in photo 10 and 11, I had completed the 360 degree turn and faced the opponent side while I could see the ball and the hitting zone.

In case like this, there could be three different reaction from different tennis coaches -

Coach 1. Stop doing this! If elite players don't do, you shouldn't try to invent new wheels!
Coach 2. You should recover normally in reverse direction. (my question will be, doing so will be slower than what I did!)
Coach 3. As far as it is natural, occasionally doing a surprise shot like this is totally OK.

It's true I missed part of views of my opponent, but it doesn't affect my preparedness for the next shot at all. It's like trading stocks. A fundamentalist would dig out financial reports, sec filings, news, etc. to make buy/sell decisions, while a techy guy would mostly rely on a price chart or two to buy/sell instantly, believing most, if not all, are priced-in in the moment. So in the later case, why should I know everything my opponent did while I was facing my back fence? It's totally a none-issue if I can turn fast enough (I'm still training to get quick. It's only about two weeks since I started to do the two-handed 360 degree shots).

Apparently, you are type 1 if you are a coach, and I'm a type 3 coach :D

08/08/2020 360 degree rotational shot photos
No need to get defensive and declarative. I point out exact issues, not bashing your approach because it’s not used by no one else. If you were playing golf, that would be possible to completely forget about the ball and the field and take a look around, we’d only discuss if that made any sense to do 360 degree rotation for the shot quality.
 

oserver

Professional
No need to get defensive and declarative. I point out exact issues, not bashing your approach because it’s not used by no one else. If you were playing golf, that would be possible to completely forget about the ball and the field and take a look around, we’d only discuss if that made any sense to do 360 degree rotation for the shot quality.
Haha, wait for me to get speedy rotation! Better, players have young legs can help perfecting it.

Remember, I didn't deliberately trying to do it the first time (using two-handed, ball-side hand at bottom). It came out naturally. And with more practices in a few days, I used it in the real match. So I believe this is just a beginning, not the end. Even if I stop doing it, other people who have curiosity and are physically fit may try it (this is not a recommendation from me, just a speculation, since without proper forms and training, players can get dizzy and fall...).
 

sovertennis

Professional
A couple of the players I coach sometimes ask me to feed the ball out wide to their backhand side so they can move over and reach to hit a slice, then quickly turn all the way around to recover. We call this the "slice and twirl". It's a purely defensive shot designed to put the ball back over the net one more time in the futile hope that theopponent with be ensorceled by their balletic grace and make an error. Also, it's kind of fun, but not particularly effective..

I cannot imagine why a player would intentionally turn his back to the opponent when it's clearly not a necessary or effective technique.
 

oserver

Professional
A couple of the players I coach sometimes ask me to feed the ball out wide to their backhand side so they can move over and reach to hit a slice, then quickly turn all the way around to recover. We call this the "slice and twirl". It's a purely defensive shot designed to put the ball back over the net one more time in the futile hope that theopponent with be ensorceled by their balletic grace and make an error. Also, it's kind of fun, but not particularly effective..

I cannot imagine why a player would intentionally turn his back to the opponent when it's clearly not a necessary or effective technique.
The way I showed in the videos are offensive shots for forcing errors of the opponent or making outright winners. The most effective way to use it is not when your opponent is dictating the point and you are in defensive situations; it's the opposite - when you find a chance to dictate the point. Since 360 degree rotation with unconstrained followthrough add both pace and spin to your shots - a sudden change to the pace of the point.
 

polksio

Semi-Pro
It's first August not first April.
They are the only two months to start with A but it's not a valid reason.
 

oserver

Professional
Haha, the poll replies imply that many don't agree the saying "never say never..." :laughing:


Plenty of time Jordan didn't bother to see the rim, that was the time that sport becames art :D
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
Fed already moves like a ballet dancer

The next natural progression is to move like an ice skater

I propose any future video with Fedr be titled in this fashion: "Elegant spinner can't help but grunt whilst flicking balls with flexible wrists and open hands"
 
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oserver

Professional
Fed already moves like a ballet dancer

The next natural progression is to move like an ice skater

I propose any future video with Fedr be titled in this fashion: "Elegant spinner can't help but grunt whilst handling balls with flexible wrists and open hands"

Hand back Tennis Style Single Match Play with lots of 360 degree spinning shots. Getting better using two-handed forehand style playing on both wings.

As I said before, this kind of symmetrical two hander forms and techniques can largely fill the gap between forehand and backhand. I'm much more assertive in the court compare to what I used to being as a one handed player following Federer's style. Never go back to one handed as a style, just use one handed infrequently for odd balls (very wide, very shot, very high, etc.).

Keeping the ball-side hand always at the back (bottom) position enables a player to utilize all advantages of modern one-handed forehand, plus making more shoulder (and lower body) rotation not possible in conventional single-handed forehand and two-handed backhand. Spinning strokes are natural things to come if one is free to express yourself both physically and mentally. This is how tennis break into the domain of dance, artistic gymnastics, ice skating (may be a little too extreme), etc.. :D
 
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oserver

Professional

Last day of 2020! Two hours of morning mixed tennis and afternoon golfing. What a day! Best of my 360 degree turn shot, a little showing off of my ethnicity! The ball went over the fence too! I'm happy to let the flying ball to end 2020!

This long drive was hit with a new grip I experimented recently. As I said that it's entirely possible for me to use a tennis double-handed forehand to hit the golf ball, and there are many benefits that are impossible to achieve in the popular golf forms and techniques. With my right hand holding the club at the back position, open stance, right palm facing up at ball contact in a way similar to semi-western / western grip of two-handed forehand tennis, instead of facing forward or downward, the 360 degree turn shot with unconstrained followthrough may bring a new life to golf.

Will it be historic considering the club head turned more than 720 degrees? A fool's dream?
 
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oserver

Professional
Here is a video of December 15th showing 6 consecutive drives over the back fence. Just a few weeks ago I was pessimistic, thinking that I may never be able to hit the a ball to the fence (232 yards away). What a difference a few weeks could make!


And back to tennis: if golf can be hit this way using tennis forms and techniques with very short learning curve, what are we missing here?
 
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Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
We aren’t missing much. You apparently are missing a lot.

Same loon, different day. He always comes back and tries to hype this. Its been years and no one has bought in. Maybe time to face reality.
 

oserver

Professional
We aren’t missing much. You apparently are missing a lot.

Same loon, different day. He always comes back and tries to hype this. Its been years and no one has bought in. Maybe time to face reality.
Haha, give me some reason I should fade! Do you have real interesting threads that worth people's time to visit?

Can you make a hype to hit a golf ball from 150 yards to 250 yard in a matter of three month?
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
So you didn't read the part - I used tennis forehand forms ad techniques to hit golf balls! Significant?

Golf forms are just like tennis backhand (2 handed) forms...
They arent. You are clueless as usual. No more thread bumps for you from me. Troll on.
 

oserver

Professional
They arent. You are clueless as usual. No more thread bumps for you from me. Troll on.
Ball-side hand in front, cross-body hand at end position, this is the form for both golf and two-handed backhand tennis. No dispute you can offer here!?
 

oserver

Professional
Interesting - out of total 18 poll votes, 14 are "Never". Still, there are some voting "never say never" :)
 

oserver

Professional
Watch the lady, trying the spinning shots on both sides the first time :p (later part of the video, This video is unedited ) -


Inventing a new wheel - two-handed forehand style backhand with reverse 360 degree spinning shots from 30:00:p. Not bad as my first try today...
 

nyta2

Professional
That would be fun to play against - the moment the opponent makes his shot, spinning hitter is just coming out of rotation, still at the same corner where the ball was, trying to catch the picture and regain balance o_O no recovery, no split step, no focused look... Great the ball machine gives you that break pause and always feeds to the middle(y)
we should have a ttw 360 tourney...
but whoever loses a game has to do this after:
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
OP, don't ever leave this forum. This may be against popular opinion, but I find your posts much more entertaining than most of the other stuff we see here. I'd much rather read a post about the 360 serve than another post about how to avoid the wta forehand, or some vague platitude about the mental game, or anything from that guy who keeps posting the same content about high speed video and motion blur whenever someone has a question about the serve.
 

Dragy

Legend
OP, don't ever leave this forum. This may be against popular opinion, but I find your posts much more entertaining than most of the other stuff we see here. I'd much rather read a post about the 360 serve than another post about how to avoid the wta forehand, or some vague platitude about the mental game, or anything from that guy who keeps posting the same content about high speed video and motion blur whenever someone has a question about the serve.
Is it because you feel kinship with OP taking your racquet almost 360 degrees back executing your WTA forehand?
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I have pretty bad vertigo so I am screwed if this is the future. I will be like a Continental grip on a wood racquet with white balls playing fast grass of the 21st century.
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
Is it because you feel kinship with OP taking your racquet almost 360 degrees back executing your WTA forehand?
No! Are you out of your mind? The first thing I check on my FH is to make sure there is absolutely no wta component in it. This matters more than anything. Nevermind that my ultra-male FH is a shankfest, and that I'm late on every ball because I'm too busy tapping the dog and lag and snapping like woger. I hit my FH like a man, I'm a man, well that's what I am, yeah!
 
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