In Ft Worth we have a group of guys who were once rated 4.0, lost in the finals of Texas Sectionals to the Dallas team that won nationals, won the TR-Level nationals, bumped to 4.5 and are now tanking matches to get moved down to 4.0 again. I don't understand it, why don't they want to play the best?
Tanking Matches to Drop Rating
- Thread starter KOFS
- Start date
OrangePower
Legend
Not everyone can handle the glamorous lifestyle that comes with a 4.5 rating.
lostinamerica
Semi-Pro
Instead of telling us, you might contact USTA Texas. His name is Todd Reed.
I have, USTA Texas never does anything.
WYK
Hall of Fame
It's all arbitrary, as are most things in life. The meaning is where you find it. Chasing a system that owes you nothing is an excellent way to invite heart break. Try to see life for what it is, and use it for what it's worth. If you do something, maybe do it because it is rewarding - not because it grants an award.
Jim A
Professional
I think that USTA in general needs more of a national process. Too much variation between regions as is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
it's hard to figure out who's the best of the mediocre
we should just embrace the imperfect system, and play accordingly.
if you're a trophy hunter, figure out how to also sandbag (make gaming the system part of your "game").
if you're looking to improve and prove yourself against the best out there in your area, then appreciate the sandbaggers, because they provide you a free opportunity to test yourself (no need to pay a pro/coach/enter a tourney/etc...)!
cknobman
Legend
I am going to assume you are talking about Wayne Rigney and his (once) 4.0 team that is tanking at 4.5?
http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/...search=wayne rigne#&&s=3||0||8096183127||2017
I know several of those guys, and play with them infrequently.
I cannot speak for the entire team but the ones that I know while great 4.0's would not be great 4.5's.
I feel like they are similar to myself, really good a the 4.0 level and more than capable of playing 4.5; but dont have quite the level of game to best the really good 4.5 players.
What I do know is that Mr. Rigney does openly try to sandbag and does tell his players to lose matches on purpose.
He was not happy about the 4.5 bump and is actively trying to get back down to 4.0.
http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/...search=wayne rigne#&&s=3||0||8096183127||2017
I know several of those guys, and play with them infrequently.
I cannot speak for the entire team but the ones that I know while great 4.0's would not be great 4.5's.
I feel like they are similar to myself, really good a the 4.0 level and more than capable of playing 4.5; but dont have quite the level of game to best the really good 4.5 players.
What I do know is that Mr. Rigney does openly try to sandbag and does tell his players to lose matches on purpose.
He was not happy about the 4.5 bump and is actively trying to get back down to 4.0.
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I guess the only logic behind tanking is if getting bumped up makes it impossible for you to find matches, then they might be tanking so that they can still play in competitive leagues. Otherwise losing a match on purpose is a waste of time IMO.
The only logic behind tanking is intentional cheating.
OrangePower
Legend
I know several players who 'bounce' between 4.0 and 4.5. Very good 4.0s, get bumped up, don't have the game to be competitive at 4.5, get bumped down, rinse, repeat. All legitimate, no tanking involved. Also some of my regular hitting partners are similarly stuck between 4.5 and 5.0 in the same way.
It's easy to say that they should just improve so they can be competitive at the higher level, but at some point it becomes very difficult if not impossible to improve and people are just trying to hold on to the skills they have and not decline!
But if they are deliberately tanking then I have no sympathy.
Obviously, he has watched Jason Freeman and Tony Le cheat their way to national titles and figures it's the way it has to be done. TX cheating reinforcing itself as a legitimate strategy...
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I guess winning at any cost is a motivator for some people... personally I wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment winning a title against people at a far lower level, but some people do.
4.5s could tank their way to a 3.5 championship, or a pro could show up to an open and smoke everyone there, but the people who would enjoy doing such a thing are few and far between.
Booger
Hall of Fame
I think you underestimate how much people love winning.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Don't hate the playa, hate the game
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Sadly the same mentality as people who love watching Jerry Springer type shows... cheap easy way to make themselves feel good about themselves, without actually doing the work to better themselves...
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I know of a self-rater that got DQ'd, but otherwise I haven't seen much tanking to manage ratings in my area among 4.5s, maybe it's more prevalent for 4.0s that want to win 3.5?
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I guess it's a fixed mindset approach where they believe that winning is always an accomplishment, even if they're never challenged or improving?
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
hopefully it's not a fixed mindset (presumes they can't change)...
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I was saying they're more focused on the present-- like if they can't win now, they're worth less, so they play a full NTRP point below where they should be to constantly feel good about present performance.
Not really. As a percentage of all the people playing USTA tennis, the cheaters are pretty small unless you expand your definition of cheating to include anyone who is consistently winning. That's not to say it's not a problem because they tend to monopolize the prizes and create a situation like we're seeing as OP describes in Fort Worth where, once it's established that only cheaters can win in certain competitions like TX 4.0 Sectionals, it encourages more people to do it just to compete and legitimizes it as a strategy in certain places. But even in these sections where it is rampant, the vast majority of people are still not that motivated by prizes in artificially defined skill levels to engage in it.
Aren't you in middle states? They made it to the finals of 4.0.
How'd they do it without cheating if this team couldn't even make it out of their group at sectionals?
I play with those guys also and they had one player who won 4.6 doubles at the Cotton Bowl (Major Zone) rated a 3.5.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
We do it all the time. if coordinator refuses the appeal. then that is the other way. it works well.. they will be back down to 4.0 by summer at the latest. usually blowout scores work out better. losing to guys that rated 4.0 by score of 6-1 6-1 will bump them back down to 4.0 very quickly
Are you saying you tank matches if your appeals aren't approved?
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
of course, man. but you have to make it not so obvious... .like make the 1st set 6-4,,,,then make the 2nd set like 6-1... and just say you had a bad day
Welcome to league tennis.
As much as I hate to say it, play "open" if seeing 2.5-3.0 high school varsity players and 3.5-4.0 college players bother you.
It got way easier for them since they made age brackets. 40+, 55+, 65+ should NOT be able to play down if lower age brackets count towards NTRP.
As much as I hate to say it, play "open" if seeing 2.5-3.0 high school varsity players and 3.5-4.0 college players bother you.
It got way easier for them since they made age brackets. 40+, 55+, 65+ should NOT be able to play down if lower age brackets count towards NTRP.
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
It seems to me you can put in the time to tank so you fall back a level next year OR you can put in the time and EFFORT to try and improve and play competitive/win at your legit rating. I don't understand the satisfaction in tanking to beat lesser opponents next year, but I guess some folks get off on that. personally I give 100% effort and let the chips fall where they may. perhaps I'm even crazy in having a goal to improve to the next level... even if it means I'll be at the bottom of that level.
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Why show up if you aren't going to try to win?
I love playing open events even if I'm outmatched because it tests my skill, and I've learned a lot about disciplined play and decision making when playing against the 12 UTR guys.
They drew Intermountain, *******, and Northern in group play, then Hawaii in the semis. I haven't heard anything about systematic cheating in any of those sections (Hawaii seems to have the same players back every year, but it's a very small section, too), so those were just even up matchups. Plus, once you get there anything can happen on the court. Even the sandbaggers are just rec players, not pros (except Hunter Emmott, LOL), who have weaknesses and inconsistencies. They're just better rec players, so playing a hundred times, their advantage would allow them to win 90, but at nationals, you only play once, not a hundred times.
I know, or at least know of, most of the players on that team. They're not sandbaggers.
It just amazes me you can type this with a straight face.
Texas systematically cheats because they have a bunch of people like yourself that jump through mental hoops to justify cheating in their area.
schmke
Legend
This is not a thorough analysis, but on the surface nothing seems suspicious with the Middle States team. Just one self-rate and two guys that were 4.5s the previous year. And my ratings don't even show that the prior 4.5s are locks, or even perhaps likely, to be bumped up again, so doesn't seem they tanked last year to get bumped down.
LOL. Again, if people adopt your troll definition of "anyone who does well is by definition cheating", then yes, they are blatant cheaters.
What about the Texas team? Did they obviously tank the year prior to their championship run?
Tony Le's Dallas team was maybe the dirtiest I've ever seen. Freeman seems to get the most ridiculous of the individual tankers like Hunter Emmott and Chris Rossi, but even he's never had the coordinated dumping of entire seasons to get a whole roster of solid 4.5Cs to work with.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/texas-mens-4-0-18-sectionals-aug-14-16.540043/
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
What would a sandbagger do in a competition to see who sandbagged the least?
OrangePower
Legend
Good question.
Somewhat related: I've often pondered what would happen if two sandbaggers (unbeknownst to one another) faced off in a match that both are determined to tank...
schmke
Legend
This one didn't obviously do so. Just one self-rate and three that were prior year 4.5s. But this team was from San Antonio which to my knowledge is not as notorious for sandbagging as other areas in Texas.
The problem also seems to be more prevalent in 18+ than 40+.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
They'd both vociferously claim the other was sandbagging.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
I like the 1st option. Cheating is more fun, man.... Hard work is over-rated
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Strangely enough, I have seen this happen. Most hilarious match ever.
I actually watched out LLC tanking in a match so his opponent started tanking back.
It was awful to watch.
cknobman
Legend
I'll be working on my bump down to 3.5 and trying to get actively recruited for a national bound team.
Actually, no I wont. Just cannot do it.
Just finished playing combo with 3.5's and it was excruciatingly painful. Its just not fun playing below your level.
I found myself watching and admiring the 4.0-4.5 combo when I was not playing, wishing I had played at that level.
I'd rather be the "weaker" player on court.
No trip or plastic trophy can make me feel good about beating players below my own level.
And on that note I'll be the "weaker" player on court this weekend!!!!
Qualified and signed up for the Texas Masters tournament in 4.0 doubles.
Was tipped off that Mens 30's singles probably would not get a full draw so I signed up just in case.
I got in, LOLOLOL. I'll be getting a beat down in singles!!
Actually, no I wont. Just cannot do it.
Just finished playing combo with 3.5's and it was excruciatingly painful. Its just not fun playing below your level.
I found myself watching and admiring the 4.0-4.5 combo when I was not playing, wishing I had played at that level.
I'd rather be the "weaker" player on court.
No trip or plastic trophy can make me feel good about beating players below my own level.
And on that note I'll be the "weaker" player on court this weekend!!!!
Qualified and signed up for the Texas Masters tournament in 4.0 doubles.
Was tipped off that Mens 30's singles probably would not get a full draw so I signed up just in case.
I got in, LOLOLOL. I'll be getting a beat down in singles!!
That has happened before... and i've even heard of people offering a losing score of their opponents choosing if they agree to play for real. It's sad. Telling your opponents "I'll put the scores in 2-2 if you guys play for real" does seem better than them dumping and you cant even play a real match.
I see a lot of double faulting and unreturned serves... that's the only for sure way to lose a point if you're trying to dump. Hitting the ball into the court risks winning the point! :/
Jim A
Professional
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Tanking a match and getting better are not mutually exclusive. If I play a match like its practice, I'll likely lose, but I'll be working on a few things like RoS and Serving at the same time. That's generally how i play social matches, focusing on technique and strategy and working on weaknesses. In the end i'm getting better that way, but my scores won't reflect it.
Not that I'm encouraging sandbagging, but there is certainly a way to do it and improve some things at the same time.
I'm no trophy hunter and I don't think I'll ever play USTA. To me leagues are about friendly competition where I get a weekly opportunity to see how I've progressed with all my social matches with friends and wifey.
NumbersGuy
Rookie
Not true. They have tried in the past but were shot down by National.
