Tanner and Mc Enroe

[kiki]

While Roscoescored many wins, some of them important, against the likes of Borg,Connors,Vilas,Lendl,Wilander his HtH against non baseliners stars such as mc Enroe and Gerulaitis, who were agressive net players remains dull.Only two out of eight matches agaainst Mc Enroe ( the first one in 1978 few months after John had turned pro) and i think no win vs Gerulaitis ( and that dramatic 1979 USO sf when Gerulaitis trailed two sets and ended up winning their semi)

Seems like he prefered to play baseliners, be it big hitters such as Connors or Lendl or top spiner like Vilas and Borg.

Were the fast, nimble volleyers a bad match up for the best server of the 70´s ( or second best after Newcombe) ?

 

[newpball]

I think Tanner really missed his big opportunity in 1979 at Wimbledon.

And how sad that his life turned a full 180:

 

[Gizo]

It's true that he was a punching bag for Mac and Gerulaitis. He beat Mac at Philly in 1979 and Richmond in 1983 (when Mac was struggling with tendonitis in his left shoulder), but lost their other 8 official matches. Most of Mac's victories over him were very one sided matches with him getting outclassed. He also lost all 5 of his official matches against Gerulaitis.

In that memorable 1979 US Open SF against Gerulaitis, after winning the first 2 sets easily he was also a break up in the 3rd set but lost it on a tiebreak and then Vitas took complete control of the final 2 sets to complete his superb comeback. He described his QF win over Borg and SF defeat to Vitas at that tournament as "the highest of my highs and the lowest of my lows on a tennis court within two days of each other''. During his win over Borg, he hit the ball so hard that he knocked down the net after one point.

Of course had he beaten Vitas and reached the final, I doubt he could have even made it competitive in the final against Mac, who was young, hungry and playing dominant, lights out tennis, destroying Connors in his SF and Vitas in the final. I very much doubt that even Borg, who overall played his best tennis in 1979, could have stopped him either or even pushed him to a 5th set like he did in 1980.

 

[LeeD]

Tanner seemed to have problems against guys with great low return of serves.
Vitas's short swings, and McEnroe's touch, gave him fits.
Also, he hated to play baseline grinder, so when he returned serve, he was usually at a disadvantage unless he hit a forcing service return, something not easy to do.

 

[newpball]

Roscoe serving at age 10:

http://youtu.be/e3LgwtQrkD4

 

[kiki]

It's true that he was a punching bag for Mac and Gerulaitis. He beat Mac at Philly in 1979 and Richmond in 1983 (when Mac was struggling with tendonitis in his left shoulder), but lost their other 8 official matches. Most of Mac's victories over him were very one sided matches with him getting outclassed. He also lost all 5 of his official matches against Gerulaitis.

In that memorable 1979 US Open SF against Gerulaitis, after winning the first 2 sets easily he was also a break up in the 3rd set but lost it on a tiebreak and then Vitas took complete control of the final 2 sets to complete his superb comeback. He described his QF win over Borg and SF defeat to Vitas at that tournament as "the highest of my highs and the lowest of my lows on a tennis court within two days of each other''. During his win over Borg, he hit the ball so hard that he knocked down the net after one point.

Of course had he beaten Vitas and reached the final, I doubt he could have even made it competitive in the final against Mac, who was young, hungry and playing dominant, lights out tennis, destroying Connors in his SF and Vitas in the final. I very much doubt that even Borg, who overall played his best tennis in 1979, could have stopped him either or even pushed him to a 5th set like he did in 1980.

Could remember Dallas 79 and what happened?

Plus Borg would have incredible pressure to win GS
One thing nobody talks: how big was that pressure on Borg in 78-80 AND HOW THAT AFFECTED HIS USO PERFS

 

[Gizo]

Could remember Dallas 79 and what happened?

Plus Borg would have incredible pressure to win GS
One thing nobody talks: how big was that pressure on Borg in 78-80 AND HOW THAT AFFECTED HIS USO PERFS

Yes that stage he had convincingly beaten Borg in his home turf in Sweden in the fall of 1978, and again in the semis at New Orleans in 1979 in a third set tiebreaker before he thumped Tanner in the final. Then in that huge win over him in at Dallas, he served incredibly well and used his deft touch and variety of pace to keep Borg off balance.

He probably played an even better standard of tennis in his last couple of matches to win the 1979 US Open than he did during his other title runs there (even though his 1980 run was the most difficult), and would have beaten any of his contemporaries at the stage.

 

[Mustard]

There's no reason to say that Tanner wasn't capable of beating McEnroe at the 1979 US Open. He was in the form of his life at the time.

 

[hoodjem]

Roscoe serving at age 10:

http://youtu.be/e3LgwtQrkD4

I don't think so.

That racquet had not been invented when Tanner was 10 years of age . . . in 1961.

 

[newpball]

I don't think so.

That racquet had not been invented when Tanner was 10 years of age in 1961.

Good catch.

 

[Gizo]

There's every reason to say that Tanner wasn't capable of beating McEnroe at the 1979 US Open. Mac was in incredible form at the business end of the tournament as highlighted by his performances against Connors and Gerulaitis, and was a terrible match-up for Tanner with his touch and ability to alter the pace on his serve, which caused far greater problems for Tanner, than Tanner's booming service caused for Mac.

When Mac was in good form and playing well, there was nothing Tanner could do about it as highlighted by their matches against each other, and in 1979 he was fearless, inspired and mesmerising opponents with his skill and finesse.

 

[Borg Number One]

Could remember Dallas 79 and what happened?

Plus Borg would have incredible pressure to win GS
One thing nobody talks: how big was that pressure on Borg in 78-80 AND HOW THAT AFFECTED HIS USO PERFS

It would have been a great match most likely had Borg-McEnroe been the '79 US Open final. Gerulaitis did not play well at all in that final, perhaps a bit spent after his epic SF match with Tanner. He was making so many errors and McEnroe took full advantage. Borg beat McEnroe indoors at NY's MSG in Jan. 80 a few months after that '79 US Open. That was the fourth biggest tournament in those years at least on par with the WCT finals being played in those specific years. During the year 1979 Borg had wins over McEnroe at Montreal (hard courts), Richmond (indoors), and Rotterdam (indoors), while McEnroe had wins over Borg at the WCT and New Orleans (both indoors). 1-1 at the Masters/WCT and 3-1 in favor of Borg at smaller events (4-2 in favor of Borg overall on only fast courts) during 1979-Jan. 1980.

Roscoe Tanner did beat Connors at the '76 Wimbledon in a big upset only to lose in straights to Borg in the SF. That was another big win that Tanner had. Borg was chasing the GS in '78-'80 especially as he completed the channel slams three years in a row. In the Borg/McEnroe/Connors era, you had to try and go from the red clay at RG, to the fast grass courts at Wimbledon, then the fast hard courts at the US Open before they were slowed down. The AO would have been a factor had the first three majors had been won by any player. So, Borg would have to face the likes of Vilas, Orantes, or Lendl at the FO, then many specialists at Wimbledon including players like Connors and/or McEnroe, then face off against McEnroe and/or Connors at the U.S. Open. It all made for very interesting and fascinating match ups and variety.

 

[Mustard]

There's every reason to say that Tanner wasn't capable of beating McEnroe at the 1979 US Open. Mac was in incredible form at the business end of the tournament as highlighted by his performances against Connors and Gerulaitis, and was a terrible match-up for Tanner with his touch and ability to alter the pace on his serve, which caused far greater problems for Tanner, than Tanner's booming service caused for Mac.

When Mac was in good form and playing well, there was nothing Tanner could do about it as highlighted by their matches against each other, and in 1979 he was fearless, inspired and mesmerising opponents with his skill and finesse.

You're underestimating Tanner. Tanner was more experienced than McEnroe, and had just given Borg a bad beating. The result of a hypothetical Tanner vs. McEnroe final is far from a foregone conclusion.

 

[Borg Number One]

You're underestimating Tanner. Tanner was more experienced than McEnroe, and had just given Borg a bad beating. The result of a hypothetical Tanner vs. McEnroe final is far from a foregone conclusion.

Tanner would have had a shot, no doubt. He was the more seasoned player at the time and still very dangerous in 1979. Plus, under those old U.S. Open lights that have since been changed, picking up that serve if it was very on was not easy. He could get hot, but he could also come up with a dud. He was a streaky player in that sense. McEnroe may well have still won that final but I don't think it's a given. His win over Connors in the SF was a great match as well. Unless Tanner served lights out, he would have been in for a real tough match most likely, unless McEnroe was off in my opinion.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Tanner would have had a shot, no doubt. He was the more seasoned player at the time and still very dangerous in 1979. Plus, under those old U.S. Open lights that have since been changed, picking up that serve if it was very on was not easy. He could get hot, but he could also come up with a dud. He was a streaky player in that sense. McEnroe may well have still won that final but I don't think it's a given. His win over Connors in the SF was a great match as well. Unless Tanner served lights out, he would have been in for a real tough match most likely, unless McEnroe was off in my opinion.

I have watched highlights of the 1979 Wimbledon final between Borg and Tanner, and the latter came very close to winning.

It seems to me that Tanner may have been a Roddick equivalent of that era, i.e. a winner of only one slam, but unlucky not to have won a number more. He appeared to have a huge game which could trouble anyone.

Again, I am going just from YouTube highlights, I wasn't there at the time, but his top level of play impresses me.

 

[LeeD]

That similie, Tanner and Roddick, is very good!
I watched Tanner from '75 thru '79, since he was also a lefty and had the most effective serve of the time.
Movement was not his strength. He played straight ahead offense, and only played defense to hopefully extend the point to tire out his opponents, not to win when he returned serve.
Seemed HE could get tired out, or lose interest, very quickly, as he could lose early in a tourney to nobody, then two tourneys later, make the finals.
Erratic, big serving lefty? Gee, are there any really? Rusedski? Goran? Korda?Roche?

 

[kiki]

While it seems about normal Tanner ousted Mac at Phily in 79, it seems a bit rare that he did so at Richmond 83, well past his prime and when Mac was hitting his own.

 

[8F93W5]

I don't think so.

That racquet had not been invented when Tanner was 10 years of age . . . in 1961.

Exactly. It about 1 second to figure that out.

 

[kiki]

It would have been a great match most likely had Borg-McEnroe been the '79 US Open final. Gerulaitis did not play well at all in that final, perhaps a bit spent after his epic SF match with Tanner. He was making so many errors and McEnroe took full advantage. Borg beat McEnroe indoors at NY's MSG in Jan. 80 a few months after that '79 US Open. That was the fourth biggest tournament in those years at least on par with the WCT finals being played in those specific years. During the year 1979 Borg had wins over McEnroe at Montreal (hard courts), Richmond (indoors), and Rotterdam (indoors), while McEnroe had wins over Borg at the WCT and New Orleans (both indoors). 1-1 at the Masters/WCT and 3-1 in favor of Borg at smaller events (4-2 in favor of Borg overall on only fast courts) during 1979-Jan. 1980.

Roscoe Tanner did beat Connors at the '76 Wimbledon in a big upset only to lose in straights to Borg in the SF. That was another big win that Tanner had. Borg was chasing the GS in '78-'80 especially as he completed the channel slams three years in a row. In the Borg/McEnroe/Connors era, you had to try and go from the red clay at RG, to the fast grass courts at Wimbledon, then the fast hard courts at the US Open before they were slowed down. The AO would have been a factor had the first three majors had been won by any player. So, Borg would have to face the likes of Vilas, Orantes, or Lendl at the FO, then many specialists at Wimbledon including players like Connors and/or McEnroe, then face off against McEnroe and/or Connors at the U.S. Open. It all made for very interesting and fascinating match ups and variety.

Roscoe was like a big mistery.Never know what to expect and Borg didn´t like very much surprises.He almost had a big one at the 79 Wimbledon final, albeit Borg, as you mentioned, had already beaten Tanner there, back in 76 and quite easily.

Tanner was great in that sense.He made the big boys wonder what would come next.A truck loaded with aces? that crisp return followed by that tight volley?

IMO, the best quality Tanner vs Borg match was their 1980 USO quarterfinal, when Borg went to five full sets.BTW, what Mac did that year, beating lendl,Connors and Borg to win the title was huge.But Borg had to beat Noah in the last 16,Tanner in 5, Kriek in 5 ( being down two sets to zero) and took Mac to a fifth set trailing as well two sets to zero.That 1980 tournament must have been one of the most exciting ever.

 

[LeeD]

Mystery.
I watched Tanner the first time, and the "mystery" plowed straight ahead, hit every volley hard and low, then moved in some more. Big overhead.
Then, when returning serve, he would never allow the server to groove. He'd go for HIS shots, before the server could play his game.
Not a mystery, but a strong attacking player going for his shots before his opponent can impose HIS will.

 

[kiki]

Tanner and Connors had a very torrid rivalry which is not too much spoken of, but if you watch closely the pattern, there are few match ups more exciting in the modern era.Many of their matches were carried to the limit.

Their last match at the 1981 Masters: Tanner wins 7-6,6-7.7-6

Their Wimbledon quarterfinal, back in 1980 was a brutal one.

 

[Mustard]

Tanner and Connors had a very torrid rivalry which is not too much spoken of, but if you watch closely the pattern, there are few match ups more exciting in the modern era.Many of their matches were carried to the limit.

Their last match at the 1981 Masters: Tanner wins 7-6,6-7.7-6

Their Wimbledon quarterfinal, back in 1980 was a brutal one.

Tanner speaks of his rivalry with Connors in his autobiography, and how eager Connors was to impress his mother and grandmother, and later his coach, Pancho Segura. Tanner usually won their matches in the juniors, but Connors turned that around once they'd grown up. There was an interesting time in Las Vegas around 1970 when Tanner and Connors were put under the watchful eye of Pancho Gonzales, and Gonzales would give them a lesson of always being aware of what the time is, and to prepare properly for the day/week ahead.

 

[Gizo]

You're underestimating Tanner. Tanner was more experienced than McEnroe, and had just given Borg a bad beating. The result of a hypothetical Tanner vs. McEnroe final is far from a foregone conclusion.

Nah you're underestimating the match-up factor in tennis. Tanner matched up a lot better against Borg (and Connors) than he did against McEnroe, whose game simply gave him fits and who had more in his locker to trouble of him. Most of the time he couldn't even make it competitive against Mac who was unfazed by his power. Plus Tanner got nervous (in his own words) when Gerulaitis began fighting back against him in their semi, so how nervous would he have been in a final.

McEnroe's lack of experience at that stage was actually a strength and asset for him at that stage because he simply didn't care or over think about the magnitude of what he was doing, and just got on it, toying with most of his opponents at the time.

I don't even think there is much too much debate about a hypothetical Mac-Borg final in 1979, as I'm sure Mac would have won that as well. The way he was playing in that tournament, Borg, Tanner and Gerulaitis were all pretty much playing for second place.

 

[robow7]

I don't think so.

That racquet had not been invented when Tanner was 10 years of age . . . in 1961.

Yea and in 61, that haircut had not been invented as well, the Beatles wouldn't bring that about for another couple of years.

 

[Borg Number One]

That Tanner clip was nice! Great serving for that age. He's even got a bit of that Tanner abridged service motion. He's off to a good start.

I do think that Borg would have been very difficult for McEnroe in the '79 US Open final. I would go with Borg as the favorite had he met McEnroe in the '79 final. McEnroe played really well in that tourney, though his 1980 win to me was more impressive. In 1979, that was a big breakthrough for him as a player. It's interesting to note that the Borg-McEnroe rivalry was based on tremendous mutual respect even after Borg retired from the Tour. McEnroe really had a tough time dealing with Borg not being on the Tour. Why? Two big reasons were: Borg really took McEnroe under his wing as McEnroe broke onto the tennis scene and McEnroe really admired Borg in his younger years. It would have been a great match. As it turns out, McEnroe played great in the final against Vitas, his New York rival. Gerulaitis was his friend and someone he really looked up while a junior. They had both practiced and played for years at the Port Washington Tennis Academy.

 

[CyBorg]

Exactly. It about 1 second to figure that out.

Pretty sure he was joking, fellers.

 

[kiki]

A funny thing on Tanner
You remember he didn' t have a curly hair before 79 ( arguably his best year)?
In fact he got that curly to improve his concentration
I read somewhere that he had done it because the fact of pulling his long hair appart very constantly took away 5% of his concemtration
True or not it certainly worked out
Im 79 Wimbledon he played very very well and overwhelmed his opponents like a train
Clerc,Gullikson,Dupre all bowed to him before the final
Gullikson had ousted Mac and Dupre had beat Gerulaitis and Panatta

 

[hoodjem]

Pretty sure he was joking, fellers.

Yea, I wondered about that too.

But it's hard to tell these days.

 

[krosero]

It's true that he was a punching bag for Mac and Gerulaitis. He beat Mac at Philly in 1979 and Richmond in 1983 (when Mac was struggling with tendonitis in his left shoulder), but lost their other 8 official matches. Most of Mac's victories over him were very one sided matches with him getting outclassed. He also lost all 5 of his official matches against Gerulaitis.

In that memorable 1979 US Open SF against Gerulaitis, after winning the first 2 sets easily he was also a break up in the 3rd set but lost it on a tiebreak and then Vitas took complete control of the final 2 sets to complete his superb comeback. He described his QF win over Borg and SF defeat to Vitas at that tournament as "the highest of my highs and the lowest of my lows on a tennis court within two days of each other''. During his win over Borg, he hit the ball so hard that he knocked down the net after one point.

How's that for a case of Rock Paper Scissors.

Tanner gave Borg a good deal of trouble; Gerulaitis couldn't beat Borg to save his life (0-20 H2H); but Tanner couldn't beat Gerulaitis even once.

If you look at their H2H, Tanner was always losing one-set or two-set leads against Gerulaitis: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=T006&oId=G008

It's as if he could out-play Vitas for a while but he couldn't put him away.

 

[krosero]

Tanner had trouble with junk or chipped returns at his feet. This was in the NY Times during the '79 USO where Tanner beat Borg but lost to Gerulaitis:

Gerulaitis, in contrast to Borg, who futilely tried to muscle service returns past the strong-serving Tanner, played cat and mouse with the left-hander from Lookout Mountain, Tenn., in the last three sets. He took the third-set tiebreaker, 7 points to 5. Chipped low returns never gave Tanner the pace or angle on the first volley.​

By contrast, Borg didn't SV nearly as much as Tanner, so Vitas had no way to hurt Borg except to try to attack him from the net.

 

[krosero]

While Roscoescored many wins, some of them important, against the likes of Borg,Connors,Vilas,Lendl,Wilander his HtH against non baseliners stars such as mc Enroe and Gerulaitis, who were agressive net players remains dull.Only two out of eight matches agaainst Mc Enroe ( the first one in 1978 few months after John had turned pro) and i think no win vs Gerulaitis ( and that dramatic 1979 USO sf when Gerulaitis trailed two sets and ended up winning their semi)

Seems like he prefered to play baseliners, be it big hitters such as Connors or Lendl or top spiner like Vilas and Borg.

Were the fast, nimble volleyers a bad match up for the best server of the 70´s ( or second best after Newcombe) ?

Tanner's first win over McEnroe was at Philly in '79, right after John had won the Masters: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=T006&oId=M047

2-8 against John is a relatively poor record but Tanner's H2H against Connors was not that much better (5-17).

Tanner did have a winning record over Vilas.

 

[kiki]

How's that for a case of Rock Paper Scissors.

Tanner gave Borg a good deal of trouble; Gerulaitis couldn't beat Borg to save his life (0-20 H2H); but Tanner couldn't beat Gerulaitis even once.

If you look at their H2H, Tanner was always losing one-set or two-set leads against Gerulaitis: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=T006&oId=G008

It's as if he could out-play Vitas for a while but he couldn't put him away.

It is interesting.Tanner liked power vs power but he was too unflexible.Maybe, that thing against Gerulaitis was also kind of menthal issue.I can´t see much the reason, but that may have happened.

 

[Gizo]

Good posts, and it's interesting that Tanner won the 1st set in 4 out of his 5 matches against Vitas. He would come out of the blocks very well before Vitas's game and strategy eventually wore him down.

Actually ahead of their match at Wimbledon in 1982 (which Vitas easily won in straight sets), Vitas said that he had beaten Tanner 4 out of 5 times. Of course players get those sort of details wrong all the time, so maybe Vitas was making a simple mistake there, or maybe Tanner beat him in a big unofficial match somewhere.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...KUrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yvwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5696,6446046

It's true that Tanner preferred to race a steady rhythm of power on both the serve and return, and Vitas and Mac's ability to vary the pace against him had him in all sorts of trouble.

 

[krosero]

It is interesting.Tanner liked power vs power but he was too unflexible.Maybe, that thing against Gerulaitis was also kind of menthal issue.I can´t see much the reason, but that may have happened.

I can't see why there would have been a mental issue either. But maybe it comes down to that inflexibility. Tanner had no Plan B, so he could overwhelm a player for a while, but if Vitas or anyone else started throwing other things at him, he could get start getting frustrated and making errors (like a lot of power hitters).

Mac was great at producing junk, although I just remembered that he was much younger than Tanner (by 9 years), so maybe there's nothing really remarkable about his 8-2 record over Tanner. Mac won a long streak of matches over Tanner in the early 80s as Tanner went into decline.

Good posts, and it's interesting that Tanner won the 1st set in 4 out of his 5 matches against Vitas. He would come out of the blocks very well before Vitas's game and strategy eventually wore him down.

Actually ahead of their match at Wimbledon in 1982 (which Vitas easily won in straight sets), Vitas said that he had beaten Tanner 4 out of 5 times. Of course players get those sort of details wrong all the time, so maybe Vitas was making a simple mistake there, or maybe Tanner beat him in a big unofficial match somewhere.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...KUrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yvwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5696,6446046

It's true that Tanner preferred to race a steady rhythm of power on both the serve and return, and Vitas and Mac's ability to vary the pace against him had him in all sorts of trouble.

Tanner did get a win over Gerulaitis at Hilton Head (officially an exo) in Sept. '77 though it was extremely close: 6-7 (9-11), 6-4, 7-6 (7-5).

In that match Tanner lost a lot of leads too. He was up 4-0 in both tiebreaks.

 

[Borg Number One]

 

[Gizo]

I can't see why there would have been a mental issue either. But maybe it comes down to that inflexibility. Tanner had no Plan B, so he could overwhelm a player for a while, but if Vitas or anyone else started throwing other things at him, he could get start getting frustrated and making errors (like a lot of power hitters).

Mac was great at producing junk, although I just remembered that he was much younger than Tanner (by 9 years), so maybe there's nothing really remarkable about his 8-2 record over Tanner. Mac won a long streak of matches over Tanner in the early 80s as Tanner went into decline.

Yes Mac stylistically caused Tanner a lot of havoc with his touch, variety of shots (giving Tanner little rhythm to work with) and mixture of pace with his serve, dropshots etc, and crucially was able to get a strong foothold on Tanner's serve. However by that stage he was racking up the wins over a lot of players, so Tanner wasn't alone there, and he wasn't the same player in the early 80s as he was in the late 70s.

Tanner did get a win over Gerulaitis at Hilton Head (officially an exo) in Sept. '77 though it was extremely close: 6-7 (9-11), 6-4, 7-6 (7-5).

In that match Tanner lost a lot of leads too. He was up 4-0 in both tiebreaks.

Thanks for the information. Interesting that Tanner got his win over Vitas on Har-Tru, a surface which suited Vitas's game a lot more than his. Also Vitas's comments that this match counted, showed how blurred the lines were in terms of official and unofficial matches back then, and how seriously players treated these invitationals and exhos.

That match is available on DVD so I might check it out.

Vitas lost all 17 official matches that he played against Borg, with at least two matches on all surfaces and battles at pretty much all the biggest tournaments. He did beat him several times in exhos/invitationals though (7 times by my count); at Basel in October 1978, Tel Aviv and Tallinn in November 1978, Munich in March 1980, Hong Kong in March 1981, and Copenhagen and Braga in March 1982.

Those matches at Tel Aviv in 1978 and Hong Kong in 1981 were best of 5 sets, with Vitas winning them both in 4 sets. Of course Borg still won the lion’s share of their unofficial matches though.

 

[kiki]

Moolson 81 is the best win for Vitas

 

[Gizo]

Yes that was an excellent win for Vitas at Toronto in 1981, and a great tournament all around.

He beat Connors 6-7 6-2 6-2 in his SF, serving 13 aces. Connors serve-volleyed a lot in that match but Vitas kept passing him. In the other SF, Mac saved 2 match points to beat Borg 10-8 in the 3rd set tiebreak, 6-3 3-6 7-6 (Borg had also saved 2 match points).

Then Vitas beat Mac 6-4 4-6 6-3 6-3 in front of 15,000 people in the the final. Mac kept feuding with the umpire and officials as you'd expect, but Vitas kept his composure and served very well again.

In the RR stage of that event, Mac had beaten Vitas 6-3 6-3 in one group while Connors had beaten Borg 7-5 6-3 in the other.

 

[kiki]

Yes that was an excellent win for Vitas at Toronto in 1981, and a great tournament all around.

He beat Connors 6-7 6-2 6-2 in his SF, serving 13 aces. Connors serve-volleyed a lot in that match but Vitas kept passing him. In the other SF, Mac saved 2 match points to beat Borg 10-8 in the 3rd set tiebreak, 6-3 3-6 7-6 (Borg had also saved 2 match points).

Then Vitas beat Mac 6-4 4-6 6-3 6-3 in front of 15,000 people in the the final. Mac kept feuding with the umpire and officials as you'd expect, but Vitas kept his composure and served very well again.

In the RR stage of that event, Mac had beaten Vitas 6-3 6-3 in one group while Connors had beaten Borg 7-5 6-3 in the other.

Thanks.In the 1978-80 period that semifinal line up was a classic.Those 4 guys played most big titles semifinals.Moreso in the unofficial - yet extremely popular and competitive-events.Toronto,Chicago,Boca Raton,Frankfurt and Milan...

 

[krosero]

Thanks for the information. Interesting that Tanner got his win over Vitas on Har-Tru, a surface which suited Vitas's game a lot more than his. Also Vitas's comments that this match counted, showed how blurred the lines were in terms of official and unofficial matches back then, and how seriously players treated these invitationals and exhos.

That match is available on DVD so I might check it out.

It's an interesting match, if only because it gives a good sense of the power in Tanner's serve.

Yes it's ironic that Tanner's only win came on clay. Tanner never advanced past the R16 in a clay Slam.

But when Tanner beat Vitas at Hilton Head, Pancho Gonzalez said it was one of the best claycourt matches he'd seen Tanner play.

Just a few weeks before, at Forest Hills, Tanner had gotten skunked in the R16 by Connors, 6-0, 6-2. That was the only time Connors and Tanner met on clay, and it was easily the most one-sided score in their rivalry.

Vitas lost all 17 official matches that he played against Borg, with at least two matches on all surfaces and battles at pretty much all the biggest tournaments. He did beat him several times in exhos/invitationals though (7 times by my count); at Basel in October 1978, Tel Aviv and Tallinn in November 1978, Munich in March 1980, Hong Kong in March 1981, and Copenhagen and Braga in March 1982.

Those matches at Tel Aviv in 1978 and Hong Kong in 1981 were best of 5 sets, with Vitas winning them both in 4 sets. Of course Borg still won the lion’s share of their unofficial matches though.

Part of the problem is that matches that were considered "official" back then no longer are, at the ATP. Maybe Hilton Head counts in that category.

Borg is only 16-0 over Gerulaitis at the ATP, and 17-0 at the ITF site which counts their Davis Cup meeting.

At the time, though, Borg was reported to be 20-0 against Gerulaitis after their last meeting, at the '81 Wimbledon.

Vitas beat Connors in January '80 and uttered his famous line, "Nobody beat me 17 straight." But his loss in the final the next day was reported as his 15th loss in a row to Borg. When he lost to Borg a couple of months later in Las Vegas, that was reported as the 17th straight win.

I'd love to know what, if anything, Vitas said after someone finally got him 17 straight

 

[kiki]

It was not a good business being a Borg´s friend for Vilas and Gerulaitis.

Borg´s friendship with Panatta and Nastase was more balanced, just like with Mc Enroe.

Even for an introspective fellow like he was, he really got along fine with most of his contemporaries.

 

[Borg Number One]

It was not a good business being a Borg´s friend for Vilas and Gerulaitis.

Borg´s friendship with Panatta and Nastase was more balanced, just like with Mc Enroe.

Even for an introspective fellow like he was, he really got along fine with most of his contemporaries.

That's an interesting take. Maybe Connors understood that. He viewed it as this guy is taking something away from me. I admire Connors though. Remember Tiriac didn't want Vilas to be too friendly with Borg and you had the rivalry with Borg and Bergelin on one side and then Tiriac and Vilas on the other? Bergelin was no pushover either as you know. He really became a father figure to Borg. Bergelin could just give Borg a look and he didn't need to say anything to coach him during a match really. Borg and Vilas had some great workouts with Bergelin and Tiriac on hand as well. Same with Gerulaitis and Borg. They really had some extremely tough practice sessions. Vitas was a great athlete as well.

 

[kiki]

That's an interesting take. Maybe Connors understood that. He viewed it as this guy is taking something away from me. I admire Connors though. Remember Tiriac didn't want Vilas to be too friendly with Borg and you had the rivalry with Borg and Bergelin on one side and then Tiriac and Vilas on the other? Bergelin was no pushover either as you know. He really became a father figure to Borg. Bergelin could just give Borg a look and he didn't need to say anything to coach him during a match really. Borg and Vilas had some great workouts with Bergelin and Tiriac on hand as well. Same with Gerulaitis and Borg. They really had some extremely tough practice sessions. Vitas was a great athlete as well.

Yes, they were extremely fit athletes who worked very hard and had long, extenuating sessions.

Borg and Vilas relationship was very close at the beginning, then, maybe due to Tiriac and Bergelin´s influence, became a sort of love&hate stuff.In the documentary that Vilas ran about his career ( available on you tube), he explains how he first met Borg.

They played a lot of doubles and won a few GP doubles titles.I remember both staying back and having great passings shots...

Borg was a very typical boy of the 70´s.Coming from Sweden he had a very liberal view...(and I a m sure he loved Led Zepplin)

 

[Gizo]

It's an interesting match, if only because it gives a good sense of the power in Tanner's serve.

Yes it's ironic that Tanner's only win came on clay. Tanner never advanced past the R16 in a clay Slam.

But when Tanner beat Vitas at Hilton Head, Pancho Gonzalez said it was one of the best claycourt matches he'd seen Tanner play.

Just a few weeks before, at Forest Hills, Tanner had gotten skunked in the R16 by Connors, 6-0, 6-2. That was the only time Connors and Tanner met on clay, and it was easily the most one-sided score in their rivalry.

Yes I didn't remember too many other big wins from Tanner even on Har-Tru let alone European red clay. I think he won a couple of titles on clay in 1976, overcoming Eddie Dibbs's moonballing at Cincy and Stockton and Barazzutti at Tokyo, but other than that he didn't have a whole lot of joy on the surface.

If any of the more notable American players were hindered by the USTA's decision to hold the US Open being held on har-tru from 1975-1977 it was him.

Part of the problem is that matches that were considered "official" back then no longer are, at the ATP. Maybe Hilton Head counts in that category.

Borg is only 16-0 over Gerulaitis at the ATP, and 17-0 at the ITF site which counts their Davis Cup meeting.

At the time, though, Borg was reported to be 20-0 against Gerulaitis after their last meeting, at the '81 Wimbledon.

Vitas beat Connors in January '80 and uttered his famous line, "Nobody beat me 17 straight." But his loss in the final the next day was reported as his 15th loss in a row to Borg. When he lost to Borg a couple of months later in Las Vegas, that was reported as the 17th straight win.

I'd love to know what, if anything, Vitas said after someone finally got him 17 straight

Yes it's funny how the boundaries kept on shifting, and that there have been so many conflicting reports over h2hs over the years.

Borg's win over Vitas in the 1978 Davis Cup was a dead rubber, and I've always questioned whether those meaningless dead rubbers should count at all towards players' overall career histories and stats, Davis Cup tournament histories and stats, and head to heads. Certainly the stakes in lot of their invitational matches, whether it was at Detroit in 1976, Frankfurt in 1979, Sydney in 1982 etc were considerably higher than that.

Also I've seen it reported that Connors won every match he played against Borg in 1982, but in September of that year Borg did beat him in 5 sets at Ottawa.

Borg, Mac, Connors etc would often treat a lot of the unofficial invitationals so seriously and go all out to try to win them, but not exert themselves fully or even tank in events that were/are treated as official.

If you were to include all of Borg and Connors's unofficial matches against each other, Connors may be leading their overall h2h.

Which matches should count, which matches matches shouldn't? A very interesting debate there .

 

[kiki]

Yes I didn't remember too many other big wins from Tanner even on Har-Tru let alone European red clay. I think he won a couple of titles on clay in 1976, overcoming Eddie Dibbs's moonballing at Cincy and Stockton and Barazzutti at Tokyo, but other than that he didn't have a whole lot of joy on the surface.

If any of the more notable American players were hindered by the USTA's decision to hold the US Open being held on har-tru from 1975-1977 it was him.



Yes it's funny how the boundaries kept on shifting, and that there have been so many conflicting reports over h2hs over the years.

Borg's win over Vitas in the 1978 Davis Cup was a dead rubber, and I've always questioned whether those meaningless dead rubbers should count at all towards players' overall career histories and stats, Davis Cup tournament histories and stats, and head to heads. Certainly the stakes in lot of their invitational matches, whether it was at Detroit in 1976, Frankfurt in 1979, Sydney in 1982 etc were considerably higher than that.

Also I've seen it reported that Connors won every match he played against Borg in 1982, but in September of that year Borg did beat him in 5 sets at Ottawa.

Borg, Mac, Connors etc would often treat a lot of the unofficial invitationals so seriously and go all out to try to win them, but not exert themselves fully or even tank in events that were/are treated as official.

If you were to include all of Borg and Connors's unofficial matches against each other, Connors may be leading their overall h2h.

Which matches should count, which matches matches shouldn't? A very interesting debate there .

You arose an interesting point: what was the HtH between Borg and Connors at non official events?

talking off memory, Connors won at Montreal 81, Beaver Creek 82, San Francisco 82,BAires 78 while Borg won at Frankfurt 79, WCT Montreal 79, Pepsi 77,78,79 and If I recall properly, Chicago 83

But I am sure there are more non official matches between both that I can´t recall right now.

 

[Gizo]

You arose an interesting point: what was the HtH between Borg and Connors at non official events?

talking off memory, Connors won at Montreal 81, Beaver Creek 82, San Francisco 82,BAires 78 while Borg won at Frankfurt 79, WCT Montreal 79, Pepsi 77,78,79 and If I recall properly, Chicago 83

But I am sure there are more non official matches between both that I can´t recall right now.

Here are all their official (in bold) and unofficial matches that I can think of:

1 - November 1973 - Stockholm SF - Borg 6-4 3-6 7-6

2 - August 1974 - Indianapolis F - Connors 5-7 6-3 6-4

3 - September 1975 - US Open SF - Connors 7-5 7-5 7-5
4 - November 1975 - Stockholm SF - Connors 6-2 7-6

5 - February 1976 - Philadelphia F - Connors 7-6 6-4 6-0
6 - March 1976 - Palm Springs SF - Connors 6-4 6-1
7 - September 1976 - US Open F - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-6 6-4
8 - September/October 1976 - Caracas RR - Connors 6-4 5-7 6-3

9 - January 1977 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 6-4 5-7 6-3
10 - July 1977 - Wimbledon F - Borg 3-6 6-2 6-1 5-7 6-4
11 - January 1978 - Masters F - Connors - 6-4 1-6 6-4

12 - January 1978 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 7-6 3-6 6-1
13 - April 1978 - Tokyo (Suntory Cup) F - Borg 6-1 6-2
14 - July 1978 - Wimbledon F - Borg 6-2 6-2 6-3
15 - September 1978 - US Open F - Connors 6-4 6-2 6-2
16 - September 1978 - Buenos Aires F - Connors 5-7 6-3 6-3

17 - February 1979 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 6-2 6-3
18 - April 1979 - Las Vegas F - Borg 6-3 6-2
19 - July 1979 - Wimbledon SF - Borg 6-2 6-3 6-2
20 - November 1979 - Tokyo Indoor F - Borg 6-2 6-2
21 - December 1979 - Frankfurt RR - Borg 6-3 4-6 6-3 6-4
22 - December 1979 - WCT Challenge Cup F - Borg 6-4 6-2 2-6 6-4
23 - January 1980 - Masters RR - Borg 3-6 6-3 7-6

24 - February 1980 - Salisbury RR - Borg 6-3 6-1
25 - March 1980 - Copenhagen SF - Connors 6-4 6-2
26 - January 1981 - Masters SF - Borg 6-4 6-7 6-3

27 - February 1981 - Toronto (Molson Challenge) RR - Connors 7-5 6-3
28 - July 1981 - Wimbledon SF - Borg 0-6 4-6 6-3 6-0 6-4
29 - September 1981 - US Open SF - Borg 6-2 7-5 6-4

30 - July 1982 - Industry Hills F - Connors 5-7 6-2 6-2 6-7 6-2
31 - July 1982 - Richmond - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-5 6-3
32 - September 1982 - Ottawa - Borg 1-6 6-3 6-3 1-6 6-2
33 - October 1982 - Montreal (Molson Challenge) F - Connors 6-4 6-3
34 - November 1982 - Seattle - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-5
35 - November 1982 - Los Angeles - Connors 6-3 2-6 6-2
36 - November 1982 - Vancouver - Connors 6-2 5-7 6-4
37 - November 1982 - San Francisco - Connors 7-5 7-6
38 - January 1983 - Rosemont RR - Borg 6-4 1-6 6-2

39 - February 1983 - Baton Rouge - Connors 6-7 6-4 6-3
40 - February 1983 - Providence - Connors 6-4 6-4
41 - April 1983 - Seoul - Connors 5-7 6-1 4-6 6-4 7-6
42 - April 1983 - Tokyo (Suntory Cup) F - Connors 6-3 6-4

Official h2h: Borg 15-8 Connors
Unofficial h2h: Connors 15-4 Borg
Overall h2h: Connors 23-19 Borg

By season (their matches at the Masters and Rosemont Challenge of Champions belong to the prior years):
1973: Borg 1-0 Connors (0-1)
1974: Connors 1-0 Borg (1-1)
1975: Connors 2-0 Borg (3-1)
1976: Connors 4-0 Borg (7-1)
1977: Borg 2-1 Connors (8-3)
1978: Borg 3-2 Connors (10-6)
1979: Borg 7-0 Connors (10-13)
1980: Borg 2-1 Connors (11-15)
1981: Borg 2-1 Connors (12-17)
1982: Connors 7-2 Borg (19-19)
1983: Connors 4-0 Borg (23-19)

 

[kiki]

Here are all their official (in bold) and unofficial matches that I can think of:

1 - November 1973 - Stockholm SF - Borg 6-4 3-6 7-6

2 - August 1974 - Indianapolis F - Connors 5-7 6-3 6-4

3 - September 1975 - US Open SF - Connors 7-5 7-5 7-5
4 - November 1975 - Stockholm SF - Connors 6-2 7-6

5 - February 1976 - Philadelphia F - Connors 7-6 6-4 6-0
6 - March 1976 - Palm Springs SF - Connors 6-4 6-1
7 - September 1976 - US Open F - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-6 6-4
8 - September/October 1976 - Caracas RR - Connors 6-4 5-7 6-3

9 - January 1977 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 6-4 5-7 6-3
10 - July 1977 - Wimbledon F - Borg 3-6 6-2 6-1 5-7 6-4
11 - January 1978 - Masters F - Connors - 6-4 1-6 6-4

12 - January 1978 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 7-6 3-6 6-1
13 - April 1978 - Tokyo (Suntory Cup) F - Borg 6-1 6-2
14 - July 1978 - Wimbledon F - Borg 6-2 6-2 6-3
15 - September 1978 - US Open F - Connors 6-4 6-2 6-2
16 - September 1978 - Buenos Aires F - Connors 5-7 6-3 6-3

17 - February 1979 - Pepsi Grand Slam F - Borg 6-2 6-3
18 - April 1979 - Las Vegas F - Borg 6-3 6-2
19 - July 1979 - Wimbledon SF - Borg 6-2 6-3 6-2
20 - November 1979 - Tokyo Indoor F - Borg 6-2 6-2
21 - December 1979 - Frankfurt RR - Borg 6-3 4-6 6-3 6-4
22 - December 1979 - WCT Challenge Cup F - Borg 6-4 6-2 2-6 6-4
23 - January 1980 - Masters RR - Borg 3-6 6-3 7-6

24 - February 1980 - Salisbury RR - Borg 6-3 6-1
25 - March 1980 - Copenhagen SF - Connors 6-4 6-2
26 - January 1981 - Masters SF - Borg 6-4 6-7 6-3

27 - February 1981 - Toronto (Molson Challenge) RR - Connors 7-5 6-3
28 - July 1981 - Wimbledon SF - Borg 0-6 4-6 6-3 6-0 6-4
29 - September 1981 - US Open SF - Borg 6-2 7-5 6-4

30 - July 1982 - Industry Hills F - Connors 5-7 6-2 6-2 6-7 6-2
31 - July 1982 - Richmond - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-5 6-3
32 - September 1982 - Ottawa - Borg 1-6 6-3 6-3 1-6 6-2
33 - October 1982 - Montreal (Molson Challenge) F - Connors 6-4 6-3
34 - November 1982 - Seattle - Connors 6-4 3-6 7-5
35 - November 1982 - Los Angeles - Connors 6-3 2-6 6-2
36 - November 1982 - Vancouver - Connors 6-2 5-7 6-4
37 - November 1982 - San Francisco - Connors 7-5 7-6
38 - January 1983 - Rosemont RR - Borg 6-4 1-6 6-2

39 - February 1983 - Baton Rouge - Connors 6-7 6-4 6-3
40 - February 1983 - Providence - Connors 6-4 6-4
41 - April 1983 - Seoul - Connors 5-7 6-1 4-6 6-4 7-6
42 - April 1983 - Tokyo (Suntory Cup) F - Connors 6-3 6-4

Official h2h: Borg 15-8 Connors
Unofficial h2h: Connors 15-4 Borg
Overall h2h: Connors 23-19 Borg

By season (their matches at the Masters and Rosemont Challenge of Champions belong to the prior years):
1973: Borg 1-0 Connors (0-1)
1974: Connors 1-0 Borg (1-1)
1975: Connors 2-0 Borg (3-1)
1976: Connors 4-0 Borg (7-1)
1977: Borg 2-1 Connors (8-3)
1978: Borg 3-2 Connors (10-6)
1979: Borg 7-0 Connors (10-13)
1980: Borg 2-1 Connors (11-15)
1981: Borg 2-1 Connors (12-17)
1982: Connors 7-2 Borg (19-19)
1983: Connors 4-0 Borg (23-19)

Great job, thanks.

Now...which is the best of them all?

of course, I haven´t seen all of them but my top 4 are:

1976 US Open
1977/1981 Wimbledon
1979 Masters

In his book Borg says their 1979 rr martch holds a special place in his memories.

 

[paolo2143]

i think you have to take the 82 and 83 matches of borg v connors which were not only unofficial but were played after borg was no longer playing full time on tennis circuit with a large pinch of salt.

The fact is borg stopped playing regular tour tennis in 1981(i know he played 82 monte carlo and entered i think las vegas classic that year)but he was no longer a regular on the tour and i can guarantee he would no longer be practicing as hard either,Connors himself confirms that in his autobiography when he states borg was entering too few competitions to compete at highest level).

I would say the 17-12 h2h at end of 1981 is probably the most accurate summation of their career h2h when both players played each other at the peak of their careers.

 

[Gizo]

Borg obviously was pretty burnt out and reduced his schedule significantly in 1982, but he was still playing in quite a lot of exhos, so he must have still been training a bit. Plus he was practicing with Wilander just before RG got underway. His 1982 schedule spanned 5 continents and included matches in Denmark, Portugal, Japan, Egypt, Switzerland, USA, Canada, Australia, Spain and Belgium.

That year he won the Suntory Cup (which was more important than a lot of grand prix events), destroying Vilas in the final, events in Portugal and Egypt and very notably the Gold Challenge in Sydney where beat McEnroe, Gerulaitis and Lendl (for the third time that year) all in best of 5 set matches. His standard of play was excellent there.

I do think that their 9 matches in 1982-1983 which were not in tournaments, but just one-off, fun exhibitions, should be completely ignored in their h2h. So I would discount their matches at Richmond, Ottawa, Seattle, LA, Vancouver and San Francisco in 1982, and at Baton Rouge, Providence and Seoul in 1983.

However do I think that their 4 tournament matches in 1982-1983, at Industry Hills and Toronto in 1982 and Rosemont and Tokyo in 1983 should all count, as both players took those matches seriously. Borg had beaten Mac at Tokyo in 1983 before losing to Connors. I think that Borg 18-15 Connors is the fairest h2h as it includes all of their tournament matches (that I know), and invitationals were very important in their era, often more important than official events.

 

[krosero]

If any of the more notable American players were hindered by the USTA's decision to hold the US Open being held on har-tru from 1975-1977 it was him.

So true, already in '74 Tanner had reached the Open semis -- which he only ended up reaching one more time ('79).

'75-77 were prime years for Tanner to do some damage there. He had a career-high 5 titles in '76, then won the Australian Open in January over Vilas. Could have had a great run later at the USO on hard courts.

McEnroe might have gone deep too; instead Orantes got him 6-2, 6-3 in the fourth round.