The Guru
Legend
If that's the truth of why then you're clearly dealing with someone who cares more about PR and perception than integrity and doing what's right.
Taylor Fritz comes down hard on the haters
- Thread starter Winner Sinner
- Start date
The only official word we have is that Sinner and that part of the team 'part ways'. Not if they were fired, or decided to go away on their own. We don't know the substance of their contracts, the applicable laws in Italy (if that is the locale under which they operated) and any details whatsoever to make any informed conclusion on that. Nor was it required as part of the sanction or even mentioned as part of the investigation. I would love to learn more about it, but it doesn't weigh particularly high for now in my conclusion.
The Guru
Legend
As far as the doping agencies are concerned they get paid a lot of money to handle these cases and if the organizations that trust them to handle it don't like the way they're handled they can find someone else. And this has literally happened very recently with a major sports organization and a huge star. Conor McGregor and the UFC. The UFC wanted the organization to make shortcuts for Conor to come back and fight but the organization said no and they fired them and found a new anti doping agency. To say that the agencies are not aware of this and don't consider it would again be foolish.
Tennis has a biased reason to protect their sport, especially when it is one of their superstars. So there is a reason why that committee is suspect. Don’t use them as a crutch when their bias to not tarnish their sport or the money flowing in is obvious.
You did gloss over the Sinner camp excuse the first time and you are doing it again. It is because you know it is a ridiculous excuse. Instead keep touting a committee that has obvious reasons to find an excuse for the athlete in this case.
It is just a small part for me. Tbh, It doesn’t weigh in much for me either because the claimed sequence of how this happened is good enough for me to feel that their excuse was ridiculous.
Even if they let the guy go immediately or later as they did, he would have got a nice seven figure sum as part of a NDA.
Ok, so it ITIA [1] is corrupt, the independent tribunal is corrupt, because of money. (That other low ranked player that got a pass on Clostebol I suppose was a fluke then.)
And because I don't subscribe to your position, i glossed it over. I see.
Well, so be it.
I could ask if you have anything that would actually support your position, other than your own vague non-specific statements, but something tells me it's going to be a waste of time.
[1] For those wondering, the ITIA stands for International Tennis Integrity Agency and was specifically created to be independent from the ITF, ATP etc, but I guess they are just all corrupt anyway.
Winner Sinner
Professional
Armstrong's case has absolutely nothing to do with Sinner's for a simple reason, having the coverage of the same international cycling federation everything was covered up, the only exception being the cortisone positive test at the 1999 Tour.
He once tested positive for Epo at the Tour of Switzerland and that positivity was covered by the UCI which Armstrong himself helped finance.
The Armstrong bubble burst the moment he turned his back on his former partner Landis.
It wasn't Armstrong who confessed, or rather, he was forced to do so, but it was some of his former teammates from his time at Us Postal who spilled the beans by confessing the whole "Armstrong" system.
Armstrong's system unmasked by Wada, coincidentally the same one that with its appeal has in turn averted Sinner's intentional doping.
In general, thinking about the Armstrong case, it is precisely here that I find a contradiction in some of the allusions that are made.
I repeat the question (which so far has not yet been answered), if it is said that there is a conspiracy aimed at protecting Sinner's misdeeds, and consequently at protecting the credibility of tennis, why were those positivities made public?
If someone has the power to cover up Sinner's intentional doping theory, will they also have the power to cover up those positive findings or not?
This is why I spoke earlier about holes in the script regarding the conspiracy thesis.
If I don't want to ruin the credibility of tennis at any cost, then I also cover up the same positives.
Instead, the positives emerged, generating the fuss that we all know.
Hey we all know the agency believed his ridiculous excuse. The agency accepting the possibility of his ridiculous excuse. doesn’t change the fact that they had a reason to be biased. It’s like someone else said here. A jury of his so called peers found OJ not guilty either.
I keep asking you personally if you believe that ridiculous excuse. You keep avoiding that answer. I am not asking you to subscribe to my opinion. I was a fan of Sinner’s game before all this happened. Even now a match involving him, Alcaraz or Novak are the only ones I will move other things on my schedule around to watch. In time I will rationalize that others are doping as well. However the excuse was laughable here, he really faced no repercussions at all, and the whole way this investigation was handled in secrecy was brought up by other players as well. It’s just that they can’t openly accuse one of their peers even if they have the same concerns about how this whole thing was handled.
I thought I'd answered that, but if it was unclear, I'll do so again:
I chose to believe the independent tribunals conclusion that Sinner has met his burden of proof to the degree required by the TADP rules for the ITIA to conclude "no fault or neglience."
To elaborate, it contains his explanation, the witness statements, the documentary evidence provided, the experts reports and their conclusions, so it includes his story as part of the whole. I also note that part of the experts job was to asses the story.
I have not seen anyone provide anything substantial to refute this. There are many theories, many allegations, innuendo, speculation and a lot of hot air, all without any substance.
I will reiterate that I'm happy to review and readjust my opinion once someone can come up with something substantial.
Dude if you are just going to repeat the same thing over and over and use the committee as a crutch, then why even bother to reply? So you have never had your own opinion or independent thought that has ever disagreed with a jury or a committee? Incredible.
Even other players who cannot openly accuse Sinner of anything have still said they have concerns about how Sinner was allowed to keep playing during the investigation phase even though he had failed tests. Yet you can’t even bring yourself to say that.
Feel free to assume on me whatever you like - that's totally on you and I honestly couldn't care any less. It says more about yourself than anything else in the end.
I'm asking you to provide something more substantial other than just blanket statements of speculation or accusations if you want me to change my mind. So far you haven't.
Sinner came up with the goods to prove his side. You haven't yet. Zilch. Zero.
Hulger
Semi-Pro
The discussion seems to be going in circles. One believes in the report, the other does not believe in its reliability. No one can be completely certain about the matter unless they have access to valid research data and fully understand the most advanced doping medicine.
In my opinion, this case is highly suspicious regarding all aspects of the reporting, but there’s no doubt that Sinner’s performance has been enhanced.
In my opinion, this case is highly suspicious regarding all aspects of the reporting, but there’s no doubt that Sinner’s performance has been enhanced.
Lol what are you even talking about? I asked you a simple question. So you have never had an independent opinion that disagreed with a committee of any kind or a jury, Sure. I will trust you on that
Excellent point - couldn't agree more.
So why exactly should I now doubt the 2 independent doping experts, who certainly had access to valid research data and fully understand the most advanced doping medicine, who along with a 3rd expert all came to the same conclusion on this case?
Lol what are you even talking about? I asked you a simple question. So you have never had an independent opinion that disagreed with a committee of any kind or a jury, Sure. I will trust you on that
I've had plenty disagreements with juries, judges and committees. I've also had plenty situations where I agreed with them.
You wanted an answer to your question, I gave it to you.
Now it's your turn.
So that whole sequence of Sinner’s camp explanation . Do you believe it? Can you answer that without using the committee as a crutch?
Your turn.
Winner Sinner
Professional
However, to tone things down, also because we are talking about tennis, were these the real problems of life, I repeat for the umpteenth time that despite being a great fan of his, I have my hand in the fire within professional sport at its highest levels, where there are absurd economic interests going around, I don't do it for anyone.
Simply in the absence of certain evidence I say that it makes no sense to nonchalantly accuse someone of intentionality when the same has been averted by those in charge.
Anyone who says that the two positive tests are enough to allude to intentional doping evidently ignores, I hope on purpose, that contamination can happen.
It has been shown that with Trofodermin it is highly contaminated through skin contact.
Having said that, regardless of everything, either there has been intentional doping and Sinner and his staff have concocted alibis worthy of an Oscar-winning thrilling film, or Sinner is truly the victim of sensational carelessness on the part of his two staff members.
I don't see any other hypotheses, but let's go step by step.
When I talk about building alibis, I am obviously referring to concocting the contamination theory in advance, therefore keeping (the athletic trainer Ferrara) the receipt of the drug containing the dose of Clostebol several weeks in advance, as a way of misdirection, as well as having the evidence of the wound on his finger complete with a plaster (Naldi) also immortalized by the cameras during one of Sinner's matches during the "incriminated" Indian Wells tournament.
Instead, we are seeing the scenario of serious damage to our image regardless of the various sentences.
I am the first to have the same doubts expressed by some as to how it could have been possible that a professional like Umberto Ferrara with a degree in pharmacology could have committed such naivety.
And by naivety I don't mean taking that drug with you so much as passing it on to the Naldi physiotherapist to treat an injury, aware of the risks it could have entailed.
Just like Naldi himself being so naive as to massage the player with his bare hands after having been in contact with that iron, therefore carelessly.
The problem is that similar situations shouldn't happen but they can happen.
For example, sometimes I have heard in the news about children dying in cars asphyxiated for hours by the sultry heat, cause?
The parent wrapped up in their daily thoughts while working in the office has forgotten that they left their child in the car all that time.
One thinks, perhaps empathizing with an apprehensive parent, that such tragedies may never happen, but unfortunately they do.
If we want another very strange thing it consists in seeing a Berrettini, who among other things also has a great relationship with Sinner, hire Ferrara himself, a few months after the news of the Sinner case became public knowledge.
Why did he do it?
These are all questions that are legitimate to ask, but I repeat, those in charge, i.e. qualified and competent bodies, investigate with many more elements in their hands than we do to judge.
I am not saying that a court's judgment is not free from errors of evaluation, but at least it has many more elements to judge with hopefully the right level of competence.
Because otherwise, if this were not the case, the problem would not be Sinner itself, but the entire system.
Instead, those who talk about stricter rules to combat doping, here too I hope they are simply analyzing the issue superficially.
Contamination is always a factor to be taken into account.
Medvedev was quite explicit on the issue, alluding to the fear of even going to eat in a restaurant fearing that perhaps the meat ordered could be contaminated by some prohibited substance.
Do we really want to get to this, that is, making athletes live in paranoia 24 hours a day, 365 days a year?
As if the current regulation were not already enough, let alone if we want to eliminate the scenario of possible accidental contamination a priori.
Simply in the absence of certain evidence I say that it makes no sense to nonchalantly accuse someone of intentionality when the same has been averted by those in charge.
Anyone who says that the two positive tests are enough to allude to intentional doping evidently ignores, I hope on purpose, that contamination can happen.
It has been shown that with Trofodermin it is highly contaminated through skin contact.
Having said that, regardless of everything, either there has been intentional doping and Sinner and his staff have concocted alibis worthy of an Oscar-winning thrilling film, or Sinner is truly the victim of sensational carelessness on the part of his two staff members.
I don't see any other hypotheses, but let's go step by step.
When I talk about building alibis, I am obviously referring to concocting the contamination theory in advance, therefore keeping (the athletic trainer Ferrara) the receipt of the drug containing the dose of Clostebol several weeks in advance, as a way of misdirection, as well as having the evidence of the wound on his finger complete with a plaster (Naldi) also immortalized by the cameras during one of Sinner's matches during the "incriminated" Indian Wells tournament.
Instead, we are seeing the scenario of serious damage to our image regardless of the various sentences.
I am the first to have the same doubts expressed by some as to how it could have been possible that a professional like Umberto Ferrara with a degree in pharmacology could have committed such naivety.
And by naivety I don't mean taking that drug with you so much as passing it on to the Naldi physiotherapist to treat an injury, aware of the risks it could have entailed.
Just like Naldi himself being so naive as to massage the player with his bare hands after having been in contact with that iron, therefore carelessly.
The problem is that similar situations shouldn't happen but they can happen.
For example, sometimes I have heard in the news about children dying in cars asphyxiated for hours by the sultry heat, cause?
The parent wrapped up in their daily thoughts while working in the office has forgotten that they left their child in the car all that time.
One thinks, perhaps empathizing with an apprehensive parent, that such tragedies may never happen, but unfortunately they do.
If we want another very strange thing it consists in seeing a Berrettini, who among other things also has a great relationship with Sinner, hire Ferrara himself, a few months after the news of the Sinner case became public knowledge.
Why did he do it?
These are all questions that are legitimate to ask, but I repeat, those in charge, i.e. qualified and competent bodies, investigate with many more elements in their hands than we do to judge.
I am not saying that a court's judgment is not free from errors of evaluation, but at least it has many more elements to judge with hopefully the right level of competence.
Because otherwise, if this were not the case, the problem would not be Sinner itself, but the entire system.
Instead, those who talk about stricter rules to combat doping, here too I hope they are simply analyzing the issue superficially.
Contamination is always a factor to be taken into account.
Medvedev was quite explicit on the issue, alluding to the fear of even going to eat in a restaurant fearing that perhaps the meat ordered could be contaminated by some prohibited substance.
Do we really want to get to this, that is, making athletes live in paranoia 24 hours a day, 365 days a year?
As if the current regulation were not already enough, let alone if we want to eliminate the scenario of possible accidental contamination a priori.
Yes, I do until I see something substantive, well supported that proves it otherwise - which is your cue to come up with the goods.
That’s the issue here though. If this was something that no one could have anticipated then I would maybe tend to give Sinner the benefit of doubt.
Italian athletes in particular have had issues with this particular agent showing up in tests. The manufacturer then puts a clear label on the packaging. Yet a trainer of a highly paid and professional team goes and picks that same cream, cuts his finger, applies it and then goes and gives Sinner a massage thereby cross contaminanting him?
Also players, not just random noobs on the inter webs, have expressed concern over how swiftly this was handled when other cases have lingered much much longer. So at a minimum the committee is guilty of preferential treatment there. If that’s the case why is it a stretch to believe that they might also have looked for any small thing they could hang on to to absolve Sinner? Would they have done the same for another lower player whose case they wouldn’t have rushed through on a priority basis?
There are red flags here with how the committee has handled it. That’s why other players and fans have raised concerns or have differing opinions.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think as tennis fans we have to acknowledge our own part in all this, too. We’ve had so much entertainment thrown our way. If we expect these athletes to be otherworldly Olympic level athletes we need to have some realism about the situation and the demands placed on the players.
For 50 years tennis has been on a near-constant physical ascent. The players have continually gotten bigger, faster, stronger, more agile and generally playing for longer than ever and recovering from injury superfast in an individual sport where you get no physical help from teammates.
Think of a guy like Tsonga. He is built like a rugby union player and yet he spent 15 years throwing himself across tiny (mainly) concrete playing surfaces. Or Djokovic’s one month recovery from a career-threatening knee injury and surgery at 37. The modern day player is a freak of nature.
We’ve been throughly entertained by players who have forced themselves to become superhuman at an unabated rate, and the downside to that is we need to take into consideration that they have probably had to get a little bit of help along the way.
It takes nothing away from them as athletes because they are special to begin with and 99.99% of what they do has nothing to do with PEDs. A normal person can’t take a rack of PEDs and become Rybakina, built like a volleyball player and able to sprint around the court like a gymnast and have such extraordinary timing and decision making skills.
There is a limit to how much blame should be placed on the athletes imo. The double-edged sword is plausible deniability, and how much knowledge some players have of where and when they are overstepping the line. We are seeing this play out a lot at the moment. The same way that some pros don’t know much about their playing equipment and put faith in their team, quite a few players probably have their faith in verified strength and conditioning and nutritional advisors managing their protocols who have worked in the WADA patrolled landscape for decades and never been in trouble. They may or may not know just how close or over the line some people in their team are going to maximise them physically. And in some cases, the intentionality of the advisors themselves is somewhat up for debate.
For me it all leads to some sort of maturing in the way we handle performance enhancing protocols, and particularly the power that organisations like WADA have to complete destroy a player’s career.
I’m kind of getting sick of hearing stories about kids running the gauntlet and devoting their lives to becoming pro players, and then losing their careers because there was a banned compound flagged in a sleeping pill or something like this.
So you believe that ridiculous explanation? That’s not coming up with any goods.
The "goods" Sinner came up with was not good at all. His ex physio and ex fitness trainer contradicted each other. They came up with some unconvincing answers and ITIA ignored it.
Do you have a problem with reading the word 'yes'?
I've answered all your questions, it really is now your turn.
We can’t compare athletes with ourselves. Sure we can’t take PEDs and become them. They are not competing with us. If Sinmer gets a benefit against even just Alcaraz, it is worth it for him. That’s who they are competing against and trying to get the smallest possible illegal advantage.
I don’t disagree that with so many things that an athlete consumes there is a chance for a mistake, even for a million dollar athletic team. However this particular agent is well flagged and marked that no Italian player or his team should ever have it in their possession. Yet despite many other Italian athletes failing tests due to this and the manufacturer putting a clear label, Sinner’ camp still makes the same mistake?
That’s what I said you believe that ridiculous explanation. I dont. There is no scientific explanation that gives your opinion more weight.
In fact if you believe that ridiculous explanation despite Italians in particular knowing not to use that substance, then you are keeping your eyes intentionally shut.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think you make a very good point about the subtle degrees of variation in performance enhancement between athletes, and some people having access and others not having access. There is also a degree of difference between the way some athletes have been treated after getting flagged for PED use.
Winner Sinner
Professional
In reality there are also cases of low-level tennis players completely acquitted after similar cases, such as the Italian tennis player Bortolotti.
However, in Italy, as has already been said several times in the past, there are many more cases of Clostebol positivity simply because the offending drug Trofodermin does not require a medical prescription, ergo, it is an over-the-counter product, in Italy as well as in Brazil.
Yes. I know that. Sinner’s camp had used that argument. However others going through that experience and *accidentally* having it show up during tests, if you believe them, is even more of a reason why this one particular substance should have been taboo for Sinner’s team. Plus the manufacturer had a huge label on the packaging by then due to the previous incidents.
That’s why for me it is very difficult to reconcile that this “accident” happened.
Funny that you write it like this. There are actual scientific studies that deal with accidental Clostebol contamination in Italy.
It's really simple. If it wasn't accidental, then we presume that Sinner used Clostebol as PED. In which case I have the following questions:
- In order to use Clostebol as PED, it needs to be used in high dosage for a prolonged time. So It would have been caught by earlier manadatory tests. Clostebol is a fairly weak AAS to begin with.
- Claims of 'microdosing' remain unanswered as no one can provide any clue on how to successfully micro dose this particular drug, especially given the extremely high sensitivity of the tests on Clostebol and its metabolites.
- Claims of drug masking have gone without any proper detail on which drug is masked and how Clostebol is employed as masking agent in such low dosages.
- No one has come up with a single good reason why Sinner would engage in such a high risk / low reward proposition.
- No one has shown anything he did he couldn't have done through regular training or detail where the usage of AAS has gained him advantage.
- No one has explained why a weak muscle building PED would be a logical choice for Sinner as PED, over something that would aid him in recovery or energy expenditure or ......
- And finally, why haven't any of the 3 doping experts concluded such?
So yeah...how did he do it then?
Funny you say that. Past Italian incidents and players using that as an excuse for failed tests, are why the manufacturer has a huge label now on the package warning that it contains a doping agent. Yet Sinner’s team magically still goes and picks this same exact cream? Yeah right.
Ok, let's assume it's intentional.
- In order to use Clostebol as PED, it needs to be used in high dosage for a prolonged time. So It would have been caught by earlier manadatory tests. Clostebol is a fairly weak AAS to begin with.
- Claims of 'microdosing' remain unanswered as no one can provide any clue on how to successfully micro dose this particular drug, especially given the extremely high sensitivity of the tests on Clostebol and its metabolites.
- Claims of drug masking have gone without any proper detail on which drug is masked and how Clostebol is employed as masking agent in such low dosages.
- No one has come up with a single good reason why Sinner would engage in such a high risk / low reward proposition.
- No one has shown anything he did he couldn't have done through regular training or detail where the usage of AAS has gained him advantage.
- No one has explained why a weak muscle building PED would be a logical choice for Sinner as PED, over something that would aid him in recovery or energy expenditure or ......
- And finally, why haven't any of the 3 doping experts concluded such?
messiahrobins
Legend
Federer and Nadal retired....tennis on the brink of collapse. and for those of you not understanding the gravity of all this you need to wake up and give your heads a wobble.
The power of Federer and Nadal is perhaps now coming to light. They were both clean of course, their brand way too valuable to risk, but it does to me look like they wielded alot of influence to protect the tour as what cannot be now denied is drug use is likely to have been rampant over the last 20-30 years.
Sponsors will be getting itchy trigger fingers now and that spells disaster for tennis.
The power of Federer and Nadal is perhaps now coming to light. They were both clean of course, their brand way too valuable to risk, but it does to me look like they wielded alot of influence to protect the tour as what cannot be now denied is drug use is likely to have been rampant over the last 20-30 years.
Sponsors will be getting itchy trigger fingers now and that spells disaster for tennis.
RSJfan
Professional
Tennis You Can Trust.
The Guru
Legend
I'm not saying the cases are the same. I'm saying people were able to use their brains and figure out Armstrong was cheating before any committee ever told them definitively that he was. If you wanna hand over all critical thinking to other people and blindly follow their opinions thats your choice. My point is the public is not stupid and they are often right before organizations are and this has been documented to be true in many cases. Everyone should rely on reason to the best of their abilities and not put blind faith in committees especially ones with perverse incentives. Sinner may well be innocent and the committee might be right but I'm going to make that determination off of what I see and my reason and the evidence as I understand it not blindly trust random bureaucrats with monetary incentives to come to certain conclusions.
The only reasonable position on this is I don't know if he's innocent or not but more often than not when athletes test positive and come up with excuses they are lying. On top of that Sinner's story seems to be a particularly implausible story that's even more hard to believe than the average athlete making up excuses. Based on that he's likely lying. He may not be. I hope he's not but he probably is.
We are going round and round and you are back now to using the committe. Look at my post #69 on my issues with the committee.
Again it is not just a nobody like me, but even other players who don’t feel that Sinner might have doped, have concerns how his case was fast tracked and preferential treatment seems to have been given. Once you have some elements where you feel that preferential treatment was given, the why is it a stretch to believe that even their investigation might have been tilted to look for even the smallest thing they could hang onto to give him a clean chit, than really do an unbiased investigation?
We are not going anywhere with this. I am done. At this point we are both looking to win an argument on the net than anything else. I am guilty of that as well. If I stepped over bounds, my apologies. It was a good discussion.
As mentioned I don’t have anything personal against Sinner. It is more disappointing than anything else. In time I will rationalize it away.
Winner Sinner
Professional
Yes, but in my previous comment did you read the example of those cases that ended in tragedy?
Would you ever believe that a parent could forget their child in the car for hours and hours in the sultry heat.
When you read similar news the first thing you think is that it is impossible for such cases to happen, but unfortunately they do.
A court called upon to judge must not be influenced by case law.
It is not enough to say that I was contaminated accidentally, and even testimonies are not enough, the right scientific requirements are also needed to avoid intentionality, otherwise anyone could get away with it by building preventative alibis.
This is why I say that we must rely on the competent bodies called to judge the case after having investigated thoroughly.
Even if there was a one in 100 chance that the Sinner case could have been generated by accidental contamination, until proven otherwise we must give it the benefit of the doubt, something that some do not take into consideration at all out of prejudice.
If we wanted to be honest, it might also seem strange that such highly paid professionals are caught with their hands in the cookie jar making their client test positive for an infinitesimal percentage.
Wouldn't this seem strange to you too?
RSJfan
Professional
Fedal holding up tennis for years. Third Wheelovic unable to step up.
Ok.
If anyone else actually has any concrete answer to any of the questions I posed, I'm all ears.
I stand by my point that I'm willing to change my mind and opinion, all I ask is that you bring more than just suspicions, suggestive or otherwise unfounded claims, especially when accusing people or organizations of nefarious behavior.
You would want it the same way if you were in their shoes.
The infinitesimal amount could also mean that he didn’t have time to get it all out and got caught. We can argue this both ways I am just not believing that sequence especially combined with the past history of this cream.
As I said to the other poster, we won’t agree on this. Both of us do agree that Sinner is a generational talent. Hopefully nothing like this happens again with him or Alcaraz. I want to see them battle for the next decade.
messiahrobins
Legend
Novak never had the same influence or billionaire contacts Federer and Nadal did. Djokovic has always wanted to change the status quo, and history may look kindly on him that regard as he definitely wanted to clean tennis up, but Novak has always faced powerful adversaries off court in the media and in business and within the ATP. McEnroe has alluded to that subtly in his reasoning for calling Djokovic GOAT.Fedal holding up tennis for years. Third Wheelovic unable to step up.
Many of these players are innocent btw who are being found to be doping, so dont blame them, blame their teams, many of whom for their livelihoods totally depend on the success of their players.
The Guru
Legend
That's a horrible example. In a case like that the only other alternative is that they intentionally murdered their kid which is equally unthinkable. The options here are someone did something implausibly stupid or someone did something that people do all the time and aligns with their goals and incentives.
Winner Sinner
Professional
I understood that you were not literally comparing the two cases.
My point is that Armstrong's case differs from Sinner's simply because the entire system was shady.
Here in the case of Sinner, if the whole system was shady, you can be sure that the positive results would never have come to light.
What people don't understand is that for Sinner and for tennis itself there is damage to the image regardless of the outcome of the various sentences.
If a conspiracy wants to protect such a representative player, a way can be found to cover up the positives.
Another thing, Wada itself, which in the case of Armstrong played a decisive role in framing him, in this case has demonstrated once again that it does not look in the face of anyone, but at the same time, if an organization like Wada in the front row in the fight against doping, where having examined all the procedural documents makes you explicitly understand that there are the terms due to strict liability for an appeal, but no accusation of intentionality, can one trust their judgment or not?
I don't understand what interest Wada should have in covering Sinner, especially when it is the same one that appealed, so no discounts.
RSJfan
Professional
Egg tried to take on the ATP but Fedal left him high and dry.
Winner Sinner
Professional
You obviously didn't get the point of my example.
That example serves to demonstrate that if a parent accidentally leaves their child for hours and hours in the car in the sultry heat, imagine if it couldn't happen that two professionals commit such negligence to the detriment of their client.
We are human beings not robots.
We all make mistakes, and from this perspective the impossible does not exist, just as case studies
they are misleading.
If it rains 2/3 times a year in a certain place, it doesn't mean it never rains there.
The Guru
Legend
We have no idea whether the entire system is shady or not but that's not relevant to the point I was making anyway. All I'm saying is the public has been right while boards, committees, and tribunals have been wrong many many times. And that should be no big surprise as the public has no horse in the race unless they are super committed to the athlete in question, like yourself, whereas the committee obviously has incentive structures that they may respond to. If you can't admit that's true then you really can't even pretend to have good faith in this argument because that's obviously true.
Of course there's damage but the casual fan doesn't even know or care because it's been so swept under the rug and soon only the most dedicated fans will care and talk about it if he continues to play. It would be way more damaging if he received an extended ban from the sport orders of magnitude worse. Like not even comparable.
Covering up the positive test is far more risky than saying he's innocent and it was unintentional because if the positive test ever leaks you lose your entire business and credibility that's why they did it. This route is much better for everyone. As far as why WADA might be corrupted is obvious. They can be fired. That doesn't mean they're corrupt but it gives them an incentive to handle these situations in a way that will please their employer. Most people choose millions over morals.
messiahrobins
Legend
In a nutshell basically. Maybe now they are retired though Fedal may back Djokovic's plans more. Well, Federer probably as i think Nadal will concentrate on Real Madrid and not be involved in tennis outside his acadamies. Time will tell i guess.Egg tried to take on the ATP but Fedal left him high and dry.
messiahrobins
Legend
We know the entire system is shady!! That is well known..however very powerful people with lots of money have ensured it has never come to light
The Guru
Legend
Right but in that case there is no other explanation that makes sense. In this case there is an explanation that makes way more sense. If you saw an apple on your dining room table that you didn't think you left there would you think to yourself someone broke into my house and left an apple on my table or would you think I must've forgot I left it there. Sure it's possible someone broke into your house and left an apple there but why would you assume that's what happened. There's an obvious explanation and there's this ridiculous story the Sinner team is pushing. Is it possible? Sure. Is it the best explanation? Not even close.
RSJfan
Professional
All three did/do very well under the current system: prize money, endorsements, FEDR setting up his own pet event and getting it sanctioned
etc… But Egg is the one who tried to rock the boat and went to bat for lower level players and Fedal tried to shut him down. And the Fedal cultists went bat sh&te crazy trying to paint it as a power grab by Egg.
Winner Sinner
Professional
I said it myself that, regardless of the outcome of the sentence, only Sinner and his staff will know the truth, just as I won't put my hand in fire for anyone. So I don't understand why you address that initial part to me. There are also cases of corruption, but proof is needed otherwise in the long run it becomes a witch hunt where anyone can accuse anyone regardless. What I dispute from the beginning is that some do not seem to want to even give him the benefit of the doubt, and this is where we return to the thesis that if someone is accused of 100% safe intentional doping, there needs to be clear evidence to prove it, and here Nobody has certain proof, given that testing positive for Clostebol in such an infinitesimal quantity can actually be due to contamination, or rather, it is scientifically proven.
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