Taylor Fritz comes down hard on the haters

[The Guru]

To believe Sinner's story, you would have to believe the following:

1. Trainer bought for Physio the cream. Why would he? You could say that he just had it for personal use and lent it but then why would he have a cream that has a doping label on it and is well known in Italy for athletes getting banned for it anywhere near Sinner?
2. The Trainer told Physio that it is banned and to not use it anywhere near Sinner. Physio said he does not remember being told that which sounds absurd for somebody who works with Tennis pro and doping is a career destroyer
3. Physio worked for a Basketball team before that had a doping case with this same cream while he was staff. Again, he did not know about it?
4. Physio puts cream on his hand that has a cut and rubs his open wound on Sinner's open wound. Doubt that's even sanctioned in their profession but even if it is it's a patently absurd thing to do that would likely never happen.
5. Sinner dropping out of Olympics that has higher testing standards and are ruthless with their process is a pure coincidence
6. Trace amounts of this size cannot be found as a result of it being in your system for weeks (tested once a month) after most of it left system

And for anyone saying the amounts were so small people in MLB have been banned for similar amounts and the amount found is more to do with the cycle than dosage as far as I understand.

That's not even getting into the way all of this has been handled and all the suspicious things that have gone outside of the initial story.

 

[The Guru]

Also why would the physio (or anyone for that matter) use steroids to treat a cut? Any medical professional would tell you that corticosteroids have practically no tangible clinical effect on wound healing. It's mainly used to treat skin disorders like derm and psoriasis. If anything, it can make a benign cut heal longer. The whole story is complete nonsense

 

[The Guru]

I said it myself that, regardless of the outcome of the sentence, only Sinner and his staff will know the truth, just as I won't put my hand in fire for anyone. So I don't understand why you address that initial part to me. There are also cases of corruption, but proof is needed otherwise in the long run it becomes a witch hunt where anyone can accuse anyone regardless. What I dispute from the beginning is that some do not seem to want to even give him the benefit of the doubt, and this is where we return to the thesis that if someone is accused of 100% safe intentional doping, there needs to be clear evidence to prove it, and here Nobody has certain proof, given that testing positive for Clostebol in such an infinitesimal quantity can actually be due to contamination, or rather, it is scientifically proven.

Because you're claiming we should just trust the committee when there are many great reasons not to. The public has been right while committees have been wrong many, many times. If you can't admit that then you're too biased to have this conversation with any objectivity.

I am giving the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt is saying probably, not definitely. Once you test positive the assumption is you are guilty and you have to prove you're innocent. Sinner's story that states his innocence is highly implausible and most rational informed people do not believe it. It might be the truth. But I'm gonna believe he and/or his team wanted a competitive advantage and didn't think they'd get caught, just like countless other athletes do all the time. To me that's far more likely, although again, nobody can really be 100% certain.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Right but in that case there is no other explanation that makes sense. In this case there is an explanation that makes way more sense. If you saw an apple on your dining room table that you didn't think you left there would you think to yourself someone broke into my house and left an apple on my table or would you think I must've forgot I left it there. Sure it's possible someone broke into your house and left an apple there but why would you assume that's what happened. There's an obvious explanation and there's this ridiculous story the Sinner team is pushing. Is it possible? Sure. Is it the best explanation? Not even close.

You are continuing to interpret my example in the wrong way.
No comparison with the Sinner case, it simply wants to demonstrate, to those who say that it is impossible for such professionals to commit certain carelessness, that the impossible does not exist, otherwise we will not witness the case that ended in tragedy that I mentioned.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Some miscreants have gotten a lot of mileage from sinner story.

I believe what fritz believe. Only sinner and his team knows the truth. Not some loudmouths on ttw.

 

[Rosstour]

Seems like a good place to put this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862514918966038558

 

[The Guru]

Also I still haven't seen any reasonable explanation for the second positive test. He was likely micro-dosing during competition. The second positive would not have been from the same dose as the first, therefore he’s been exposed to this substance at least twice in exact same quantities about a week apart. What's the explanation for that?

 

[Winner Sinner]

Because you're claiming we should just trust the committee when there are many great reasons not to. The public has been right while committees have been wrong many, many times. If you can't admit that then you're too biased to have this conversation with any objectivity.

I am giving the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt is saying probably, not definitely. Once you test positive the assumption is you are guilty and you have to prove you're innocent. Sinner's story that states his innocence is highly implausible and most rational informed people do not believe it. It might be the truth. But I'm gonna believe he and/or his team wanted a competitive advantage and didn't think they'd get caught, just like countless other athletes do all the time. To me that's far more likely, although again, nobody can really be 100% certain.

No, I am simply saying that we must trust the competent bodies called to judge because we have no other alternatives.
With your way of reasoning do you understand that we could question anything?
For example, not trusting the reliability of those same tests?
Or think that the machinery with which those tests were performed had been tampered with.

These are also cases that have already happened.
So based on history or case studies do we question everything, be it an anti-doping test or a sentence in doping cases?

I repeat, I am the first to not put my hand in the fire against anyone in professional sport, but at the same time I think it is legitimate to at least give the benefit of the doubt to anyone where there is no overwhelming evidence that eliminates even that benefit of the doubt .
If I cannot trust competent and qualified bodies called to judge, then who should I trust?

 

[The Guru]

No, I am simply saying that we must trust the competent bodies called to judge because we have no other alternatives.
With your way of reasoning do you understand that we could question anything?
For example, not trusting the reliability of those same tests?
Or think that the machinery with which those tests were performed had been tampered with.

These are also cases that have already happened.
So based on history or case studies do we question everything, be it an anti-doping test or a sentence in doping cases?

I repeat, I am the first to not put my hand in the fire against anyone in professional sport, but at the same time I think it is legitimate to at least give the benefit of the doubt to anyone where there is no overwhelming evidence that eliminates even that benefit of the doubt .
If I cannot trust competent and qualified bodies called to judge, then who should I trust?

You should trust yourself and your own ability examine the available evidence. You can and should question everything and come to the conclusions that you think make the most sense.

I already explained why they would never tamper with the tests. You can go back and look at that yourself.

 

[RSJfan]

[

Seems like a good place to put this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862514918966038558

The guy on the left needs to get off social media entirely and work on his game.

 

[Rosstour]

[

The guy on the left needs to get off social media entirely and work on his game.

You mean get a new coach and win a title?

 

[Winner Sinner]

You should trust yourself and your own ability examine the available evidence. You can and should question everything and come to the conclusions that you think make the most sense.

I already explained why they would never tamper with the tests. You can go back and look at that yourself.

You don't understand here either.
My reference to tampered tests was in reference to a scenario where someone tried to sabotage Sinner.

Obviously an unlikely scenario, but if you say that there may have been the possibility that someone had every interest in making the story believe that Sinner had been accidentally contaminated, by referring to other past cases, with this way of reasoning one can also open up to opposite scenarios.

If justice cannot be trusted, then tell me why we can trust the reliability of doping tests.

Then you say that we must trust our "instinct", this is precisely the most superficial way that exists, given that from the outside we are not aware of all the dynamics, and above all we do not have the scientific skills to draw reliable conclusions.

The proof of the misinformation that reigns supreme is when alleged favoritism is alluded to.
Those who are aware of the regulations and certain protocols know perfectly well that no favoritism was shown to Sinner, the regulation was simply applied which allows any athlete who tests positive with consequent automatic disqualification to present an urgent appeal to suspend the disqualification.
But to achieve the suspension of the disqualification, a convincing reconstruction in one's defense is needed in a short time.

 

[RSJfan]

You mean get a new coach and win a title?

No, I mean get off social media entirely. A new coach by itself isn’t going to help.

 

[The Guru]

You don't understand here either.
My reference to tampered tests was in reference to a scenario where someone tried to sabotage Sinner.

Obviously an unlikely scenario, but if you say that there may have been the possibility that someone had every interest in making the story believe that Sinner had been accidentally contaminated, by referring to other past cases, with this way of reasoning one can also open up to opposite scenarios.

If justice cannot be trusted, then tell me why we can trust the reliability of doping tests.

Then you say that we must trust our "instinct", this is precisely the most superficial way that exists, given that from the outside we are not aware of all the dynamics, and above all we do not have the scientific skills to draw reliable conclusions.

The proof of the misinformation that reigns supreme is when alleged favoritism is alluded to.
Those who are aware of the regulations and certain protocols know perfectly well that no favoritism was shown to Sinner, the regulation was simply applied which allows any athlete who tests positive with consequent automatic disqualification to present an urgent appeal to suspend the disqualification.
But to achieve the suspension of the disqualification, a convincing reconstruction in one's defense is needed in a short time.

Because that would be insane why the hell would a WADA employee risk their job to contaminate a Sinner sample? Yeah again anything’s possible but we’re dealing with what’s likely the fact that you have to keep resorting to all these ridiculous possibilities says it all.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Because that would be insane why the hell would a WADA employee risk their job to contaminate a Sinner sample? Yeah again anything’s possible but we’re dealing with what’s likely the fact that you have to keep resorting to all these ridiculous possibilities says it all.

Ah now mine are ridiculous.
You who question either the competence or the honesty of the bodies (independent tribunal and Wada) called to judge and which in their own way have exonerated the player from any scenario of intentional doping, this however does not require low probabilities that certain conspiracy theses are well-founded, and above all ridiculous.

We are truly at a paradox.

 

[RSJfan]

Because that would be insane why the hell would a WADA employee risk their job to contaminate a Sinner sample? Yeah again anything’s possible but we’re dealing with what’s likely the fact that you have to keep resorting to all these ridiculous possibilities says it all.

Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole by engaging with the nuttiness. Like you said, anything is possible but that doesn’t mean every ludicrous theory is worth your response. There is no ending to it. The internet has no bottom.

 

[Rosstour]

No, I mean get off social media entirely. A new coach by itself isn’t going to help.

I see you ignored the part about winning a title, perhaps because that doesn't support your snitty argument

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Also I still haven't seen any reasonable explanation for the second positive test. He was likely micro-dosing during competition. The second positive would not have been from the same dose as the first, therefore he’s been exposed to this substance at least twice in exact same quantities about a week apart. What's the explanation for that?

He continued receiving the dirty infected massages for days. That explains both the first and second positive. Test results take over a month to come back.

 

[Rosstour]

Because that would be insane why the hell would a WADA employee risk their job to contaminate a Sinner sample? Yeah again anything’s possible but we’re dealing with what’s likely the fact that you have to keep resorting to all these ridiculous possibilities says it all.

Big money. It does seem ridiculous but stranger things have happened

 

[RSJfan]

I see you ignored the part about winning a title, perhaps because that doesn't support your snitty argument

I ignored it because it puts the cart before the horse.

 

[Rosstour]

I ignored it because it puts the horse before the cart.

No it doesn't. It just reveals your ignorance.

Shapo just won the Serbia Open, displaying a frighteningly high level backed up by analytics.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Big money. It does seem ridiculous but stranger things have happened

Marco Pantani Giro d'Italia 1999(clandestine betting), and with this I'll stop here.

I simply say that to avoid any misunderstanding, I consider it paradoxical that someone who urges us not to trust the competent bodies called to investigate and judge, then considers the scenario of tampering to be unlikely.
And by this I am not referring to the Sinner case itself but in general.
To think that the staff of some competent body could be corrupt is legitimate, while to think that some anti-doping test maintenance staff could be corrupt is crazy.

Long live coherence.

It seems all too clear to me that here in the case in question someone is starting out prejudiced beyond belief towards Sinner by hiding behind a mask.

 

[RSJfan]

No it doesn't. It just reveals your ignorance.

Shapo just won the Serbia Open, displaying a frighteningly high level backed up by analytics.

The only thing frightening is a young fanboy/girl. Do not under any circumstances get between them and their crush.

 

[The Guru]

Ah now mine are ridiculous.
You who question either the competence or the honesty of the bodies (independent tribunal and Wada) called to judge and which in their own way have exonerated the player from any scenario of intentional doping, this however does not require low probabilities that certain conspiracy theses are well-founded, and above all ridiculous.

We are truly at a paradox.

I am going to hope now that you're not being deliberately obtuse but it's hard for me to imagine anyone could reason this poorly. I'm going to try one more time in case you are actually arguing in good faith.

What I'm proposing has happened many times in history and perfectly aligns with the incentives of all the parties involved. What your proposing has never happened before doesn't align with anyones incentives and the perpetrator would get fired and criminally prosecuted and if successful would gain no benefit to themselves.

 

[Rosstour]

The only thing frightening is a young fanboy/girl. Do not under any circumstances get between them and their crush.

Sir--you clearly didn't know he had won a title. No need to deflect on me. You're welcome for the update, consider yourself better informed now.

 

[Winner Sinner]

I am going to hope now that you're not being deliberately obtuse but it's hard for me to imagine anyone could reason this poorly. I'm going to try one more time in case you are actually arguing in good faith.

What I'm proposing has happened many times in history and perfectly aligns with the incentives of all the parties involved. What your proposing has never happened before doesn't align with anyones incentives and the perpetrator would get fired and criminally prosecuted and if successful would gain no benefit to themselves.

Has this never happened before?

Yours is complete bad faith.
I mentioned one case before and it is that of Marco Pantani excluded from a Giro d'Italia which he was dominating when at that moment he was the poster boy of world cycling.
There is talk of tampering with those hematocrit tests due to a clandestine betting ring.

Interests that are around sport that you cannot even imagine, otherwise you would not refer to the things that can or cannot be reconciled.
Tell me, genius, what interests would Wada, i.e. the World Anti-Doping Agency, have in avoiding, as it did indirectly, the hypothesis of intentional doping?
What comes back to him?

The only thing that has been understood on the subject is that you base your conspiracy theories on the most convenient perspective to support your thesis of Sinner being guilty while purposely ignoring any other scenario.

 

[RSJfan]

Sir--you clearly didn't know he had won a title. No need to deflect on me. You're welcome for the update, consider yourself better informed now.

I had no idea. I take a cue from Nick and my interest in the events post-USO until AO plummets. I’m not following the Serbia Open. I thought they decommissioned that event. I didn’t hear anything about Egg even playing. My ignorance aside, the advice remains solid. Shapo needs to drop all social media and work on his game.

 

[Rosstour]

I had no idea. I take a cue from Nick and my interest in the events post-USO until AO plummets. I’m not following the Serbia Open. I thought they decommissioned that event. I didn’t hear anything about Egg even playing. My ignorance aside, the advice remains solid. Shapo needs to drop all social media and work on his game.

He is working on his game. Maybe you should just start paying more attention, less grandstanding. Might be mentally healthier.

 

[RSJfan]

He is working on his game. Maybe you should just start paying more attention, less grandstanding. Might be mentally healthier.

He’s been on tour for 8 years. Sorry your crush hasn’t lived up to his promise let alone the hype. I’ll go with Youzhny’s evaluation over yours.

 

[Rosstour]

He’s been on tour for 8 years. Sorry your crush hasn’t lived up to his promise let alone the hype. I’ll go with Youzhny’s evaluation over yours.

And I'm sorry you made a fool of yourself. That can't be easy for a man like you. My condolences.

 

[RSJfan]

And I'm sorry you made a fool of yourself. That can't be easy for a man like you. My condolences.

PS, No need to apologize. It was easy. And I’m sorry I haven’t kept closer watch on your top 60 crush.

 

[Hulger]

Physio worked for a Basketball team before that had a doping case with this same cream while he was staff. Again, he did not know about it?

Where have you come across this information?

Also why would the physio (or anyone for that matter) use steroids to treat a cut? Any medical professional would tell you that corticosteroids have practically no tangible clinical effect on wound healing. It's mainly used to treat skin disorders like derm and psoriasis. If anything, it can make a benign cut heal longer. The whole story is complete nonsense

C’mon man… clostebol is an anabolic steroid, not a corticosteroid.

Trace amounts of this size cannot be found as a result of it being in your system for weeks (tested once a month) after most of it left system

Tested positive for the banned substance clostebol in two separate urine samples collected on March 8 and March 10.

the amount found is more to do with the cycle than dosage as far as I understand.

As far as I understand, you’re not bringing particularly clever arguments to the table.

 

[Winner Sinner]

The general director of Wada Olivier Niggli, interviewed by the French newspaper L'Équipe on Swiatek and Sinner, opened a potentially very useful scenario in evaluating the blue's case. In fact, he says: "Today there is a problem of contamination. This does not mean that there are more cases of this kind than in the past, the fact is that laboratories are more efficient in detecting even infinitesimal quantities of substances." In short, technological progress paradoxically risks becoming counterproductive if certain rules are not modified by adapting them to new specificities.
But Niggli goes further: "The quantities are so small that you can get contaminated by doing harmless things. The truth is that we hear a lot of stories and I understand public opinion that can come to think that we take in everything." A lot of stories like the one that led to Sinner's positivity and which are worth remembering: the detection of Clostebol is due to the massages carried out shortly before Indian Wells by his now former physiotherapist Naldi who had previously taken Trofodermin (spray which contains the prohibited substance) purchased in Italy by the former athletic trainer Ferrara to treat a cut on the little finger of his left hand. A series of circumstances that Sinner could not have known about and, as mentioned, no one has any doubts about his good faith. The d.g. of the World Anti-Doping Agency then opens up to a solution that could prove decisive in the CAS's judgment on Jannik: "With thresholds we would not have seen all these cases. What we need to understand is whether we are ready to accept microdosing and where it is right to stop. Precisely for this type of reflection a working table will be created." A table which should therefore - in light of the analyzes of the quantities found in the cases of recent years and obviously making distinctions based on the substance - define those as the limit quantities.
UNIFORMITY'-

Having "tolerance" thresholds would also be decidedly useful to give new uniformity to cases which in the past, given similar quantities, had different outcomes. Let's start with Sinner. We still don't know the ending, but we know the quantity of Clostebol well: in the sample of March 10, 2024, 86 pg/mL of metabolites were detected, an infinitesimal quantity; in that of March 18, 76 pg/mL. Let's now take two other cases of doping for the same substance. Riccardo Moraschini, a basketball player at the time at Armani today in Cantù, tested positive in an anti-doping test carried out on 6 October 2021. Clostebol detectable due to contact with his girlfriend who used the healing spray: very low value - but higher than that of Sinner - i.e. 500 pg/ml. He renounces the counter-analysis, is heard in December and sanctioned at the beginning of January with a one-year disqualification. The National Anti-Doping Tribunal does not consider the player's act to be aimed at altering sporting performance, but confirms the disqualification because the appeal had been submitted to the wrong section. Then there is the case of Atalanta defender Palomino: on 26 July 2022 he was suspended due to the usual Clostebol positivity: 800 pg/ml. Testing positive again (on 12 August), he reiterates the thesis of accidental and involuntary intake due to contact with the dog sitter who treated his dog Lollo with the spray.
The anti-doping prosecutor asks for a 2-year ban, but on November 7 the TNA excludes the player's responsibility and acquits him. Nado Italia appeals to the CAS but also in Lausanne they agree with Palomino. The last case of very low values is that of Iga Swiatek: less than 50 pg/ml of Trimetazidine detected. At the moment he has agreed to a suspension for one month. Thresholds would solve everything.

 

[NattyGut]

I didn't 'gloss over', I read the whole PDF extremely carefully. I opt to believe the independent tribunal that Sinner has met its burden of proof to the degree required for the ITIA to conclude no fault or negligence.

That tribunal included 2 independent doping experts who know all about masking and micro-dosing and which PED does what. And those two independent experts also didn't know who they were dealing with as anonymity is part of of the process.
Then there was a 3rd expert who concluded exactly the same as the first two.

Show me your experts detailing how the masking for other drugs with trace amount of Clostebol works in detail and refute the research and conclusions of the two independent doping experts, and we can have discussion.

What, you aren’t convinced the expert on talk tennis is the authority on doping? How dare you!

 

[jeroenn]

What, you aren’t convinced the expert on talk tennis is the authority on doping? How dare you!

Yeah, sorry about that. Especially since the TTW experts are so generous in their detailed explanations on how it all works. I promise I'll do better in the future. Mea Maxima Culpa.

 

[The Guru]

For all you "the scientists exonerated him" people here's an excerpt from one of the studies on Jannik's case:
"The low urine concentration can be interpreted in two different ways: 1. it can be the tail end of a drug voluntarily used to enhance performance; or 2. it is the direct consequence of a contimination." They then went on to suggest different ways of testing to confirm which it was. Why were these types of tests not issued? And again I ask given the two possibilities and the absurdity of Sinner's story which is more likely?

 

[joekapa]

Yeah, I like Fritz, but he is wrong here.

 

[Hulger]

For all you "the scientists exonerated him" people here's an excerpt from one of the studies on Jannik's case:
"The low urine concentration can be interpreted in two different ways: 1. it can be the tail end of a drug voluntarily used to enhance performance; or 2. it is the direct consequence of a contimination." They then went on to suggest different ways of testing to confirm which it was. Why were these types of tests not issued? And again I ask given the two possibilities and the absurdity of Sinner's story which is more likely?

This is already a much stronger argument. However, I don’t understand what you are using as a source regarding these suggested additional tests. AFAIK, the only valid method would be to examine hair samples, but these are not routinely used, nor do they seem to have established reference values. Additionally, hair samples lack sensitivity, meaning they don’t definitively rule out anything. Another thing we don’t know, which could influence the decisions on the necessity of additional tests, is when Sinner last provided a negative sample before these positive ones.

I skimmed the ITIA report for the first time and was surprised to see that expert statements regarding the detected amounts were only used to support the defense’s narrative. However, the possibility of more extensive use earlier was not even specifically addressed or ruled out.

Having the world number one caught would be costly.

 

[Bride of Alcaraz]

If the ATP banned players for failing drug tests, then it wouldn't matter what fans or Fritz have to say on the issue.
Sinner should have been banned on the spot, and Sinner's excuse/story should never have been taken seriously
The fact is, even if Sinner can prove his trainer had the spray, there is no way of proving the spray caused the positive test...
And it sets a terrible precedent, because now every tennis player can carry that spray in their bag, and claim it was the spray that caused positive test!
Sinner should not be on the tour, and I hope he won't be next year, because he's 100% GUILTY.

 

[Tennis Devolution]

Ok, let's assume it's intentional.


- In order to use Clostebol as PED, it needs to be used in high dosage for a prolonged time. So It would have been caught by earlier manadatory tests. Clostebol is a fairly weak AAS to begin with.
- Claims of 'microdosing' remain unanswered as no one can provide any clue on how to successfully micro dose this particular drug, especially given the extremely high sensitivity of the tests on Clostebol and its metabolites.
- Claims of drug masking have gone without any proper detail on which drug is masked and how Clostebol is employed as masking agent in such low dosages.
- No one has come up with a single good reason why Sinner would engage in such a high risk / low reward proposition.
- No one has shown anything he did he couldn't have done through regular training or detail where the usage of AAS has gained him advantage.
- No one has explained why a weak muscle building PED would be a logical choice for Sinner as PED, over something that would aid him in recovery or energy expenditure or ......
- And finally, why haven't any of the 3 doping experts concluded such?

ALRIGHTY here, since I have experience in professional competitive sport and since I see that you keep repeating the same misinformed points, let me completely address all of your misinformed points.

- "In order to use Clostebol as PED, it needs to be used in high dosage for a prolonged time. So It would have been caught by earlier manadatory tests. Clostebol is a fairly weak AAS to begin with."
No, the dosage of clostebol can completely vary depending on what the athlete wants to achieve physically so your false assertion that the dosage of clostebol "needs to be high" is simply incorrect. Also, there is no reason that mandatory drug testing "should have caught" any trace of clostebol since random drug testing does not guarantee at all that any trace of PEDs will be detected because random drug testing is completely dependent on WHEN the athlete is caught during his or her cycling of PEDs. Clostebol is a weak androgen RELATIVE to other androgenic steroids which does not counter at all the scientific objective fact that clostebol is still an androgenic steroid that increases muscular strength, speed, and recovery in many different ways which would obviously benefit tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are looking for relatively smaller increases in muscular strength and speed without the typical side effects of androgenic steroid use.

- "Claims of 'microdosing' remain unanswered as no one can provide any clue on how to successfully micro dose this particular drug, especially given the extremely high sensitivity of the tests on Clostebol and its metabolites."
Again no, there is no necessity to "microdose" clostebol because once can still evade random drug testing by cycling clostebol smartly and there are many ways to completely mask levels of clostebol in the blood and urine so that drug testing fails to "detect" clostebol in the blood and urine such as through diuretics and various different chemical versions of clostebol that have the same similar androgenic effect.

- "Claims of drug masking have gone without any proper detail on which drug is masked and how Clostebol is employed as masking agent in such low dosages."
Again no, there is no necessity to utilize clostebol as a masking agent and it's very simple to prevent drug tests from detecting clostebol in the urine and blood through many ways such as utilizing different diuretics and utilizing different chemical versions of clostebol that will not be "detected" by standard drug testing but still have the same similar androgenic effect.

- "No one has come up with a single good reason why Sinner would engage in such a high risk / low reward proposition."
Again no, clostebol would be an advantageous PED for jannik sinner to utilize because clostebol can be cycled properly in a way in order to evade detection from random drug testing and clostebol is perfect for tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are not looking to gain relatively large increases in muscular strength and speed and want to avoid the various side effects of androgenic steroid use.

- "No one has shown anything he did he couldn't have done through regular training or detail where the usage of AAS has gained him advantage."
LOL, again no, clostebol scientifically and objectively STILL is an anabolic androgenic steroid so there is always a SIGNIFICANT physiological advantage to using clostebol versus not using clostebol for anyone including jannik sinner whose tennis would ALWAYS benefit from additional muscular strength and speed given though the use of clostebol by allowing jannik sinner to swing his racquet faster and move around the tennis court faster with LESS EFFORT required.

- "No one has explained why a weak muscle building PED would be a logical choice for Sinner as PED, over something that would aid him in recovery or energy expenditure or ......"
LOL, again NO, clostebol is only relatively weak to OTHER anabolic androgenic steroids and clostebol is STILL an anabolic androgenic steroid that enhances muscular strength, speed, recovery, and etc. Clostebol is a perfect logical choice for tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are looking to gain relatively smaller increases in muscular strength and speed while still maintaining a light frame without the typical side effects of anabolic androgenic steroid use.

- "And finally, why haven't any of the 3 doping experts concluded such?"
LOL, once again NO, the 3 "doping experts" only concluded that it is "plausible" that jannik sinner may have been transdermally "contaminated" by clostebol which does NOT mean at all that jannik sinner did not intentionally DOPE with clostebol since the 3 "doping experts" scientifically and objectively would have absolutely NO idea about what the "intentions" of jannik sinner were in jannik sinner's use of clostebol.

 

[Rovesciarete]

ALRIGHTY here, since I have experience in professional competitive sport and since I see that you keep repeating the same misinformed points, let me completely address all of your misinformed points.

….

Evidence would be nice, do you have anything remotely scientific to back your LOLs up?

 

[jeroenn]

ALRIGHTY here, since I have experience in professional competitive sport and since I see that you keep repeating the same misinformed points, let me completely address all of your misinformed points.

- "In order to use Clostebol as PED, it needs to be used in high dosage for a prolonged time. So It would have been caught by earlier manadatory tests. Clostebol is a fairly weak AAS to begin with."
No, the dosage of clostebol can completely vary depending on what the athlete wants to achieve physically so your false assertion that the dosage of clostebol "needs to be high" is simply incorrect. Also, there is no reason that mandatory drug testing "should have caught" any trace of clostebol since random drug testing does not guarantee at all that any trace of PEDs will be detected because random drug testing is completely dependent on WHEN the athlete is caught during his or her cycling of PEDs. Clostebol is a weak androgen RELATIVE to other androgenic steroids which does not counter at all the scientific objective fact that clostebol is still an androgenic steroid that increases muscular strength, speed, and recovery in many different ways which would obviously benefit tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are looking for relatively smaller increases in muscular strength and speed without the typical side effects of androgenic steroid use.

What dosage would be needed and for how long to have any meaningful benefit? If the moment of cycling is important in order to be safe from testing, how does one cycle Clostebol in the event that drug testing is random, both in and out of competition without advance notice? [1]

- "Claims of 'microdosing' remain unanswered as no one can provide any clue on how to successfully micro dose this particular drug, especially given the extremely high sensitivity of the tests on Clostebol and its metabolites."
Again no, there is no necessity to "microdose" clostebol because once can still evade random drug testing by cycling clostebol smartly and there are many ways to completely mask levels of clostebol in the blood and urine so that drug testing fails to "detect" clostebol in the blood and urine such as through diuretics and various different chemical versions of clostebol that have the same similar androgenic effect.

There is no need to microdose? Awesome, that was one of the many arguments used by people here.
Please enlighten us, which chemicals can be used to mask Clostebol? How would this 'cycling smartly' look like?
Given that there were metabolites found in Sinner, we can assume that masking wasn't used? Also given the randomized testing in and out of competition, we can assume that cycling wasn't used? If not, how exactly?

- "Claims of drug masking have gone without any proper detail on which drug is masked and how Clostebol is employed as masking agent in such low dosages."
Again no, there is no necessity to utilize clostebol as a masking agent and it's very simple to prevent drug tests from detecting clostebol in the urine and blood through many ways such as utilizing different diuretics and utilizing different chemical versions of clostebol that will not be "detected" by standard drug testing but still have the same similar androgenic effect.

Care to share any sources for these claims? Given that metabolites were found in Sinner, we can assume that these 'different chemical versions of clostebol' were not used?
Also, the claim made by others was that clostebol was used as masking agent to cover other (non specified) PED's and my point related to that.

- "No one has come up with a single good reason why Sinner would engage in such a high risk / low reward proposition."
Again no, clostebol would be an advantageous PED for jannik sinner to utilize because clostebol can be cycled properly in a way in order to evade detection from random drug testing and clostebol is perfect for tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are not looking to gain relatively large increases in muscular strength and speed and want to avoid the various side effects of androgenic steroid use.

Please explain how this cycling works, keeping in mind that there is randomized unannounced testing in tennis [1] , both during and outside of competition. So your contention is that Sinner isn't looking to gain relatively large increases in muscle strength.
Why would a high end athlete then take such a risk for his career, reputation etc by using illegal PED's? Or is it your contention that Sinner is unable to gain these increments in a normal way?

- "No one has shown anything he did he couldn't have done through regular training or detail where the usage of AAS has gained him advantage."
LOL, again no, clostebol scientifically and objectively STILL is an anabolic androgenic steroid so there is always a SIGNIFICANT physiological advantage to using clostebol versus not using clostebol for anyone including jannik sinner whose tennis would ALWAYS benefit from additional muscular strength and speed given though the use of clostebol by allowing jannik sinner to swing his racquet faster and move around the tennis court faster with LESS EFFORT required.

How much would this advantage be, compared to regular training? Is it your claim that Sinners current level can only be explained by means of PEDs?

- "No one has explained why a weak muscle building PED would be a logical choice for Sinner as PED, over something that would aid him in recovery or energy expenditure or ......"
LOL, again NO, clostebol is only relatively weak to OTHER anabolic androgenic steroids and clostebol is STILL an anabolic androgenic steroid that enhances muscular strength, speed, recovery, and etc. Clostebol is a perfect logical choice for tennis athletes like jannik sinner who are looking to gain relatively smaller increases in muscular strength and speed while still maintaining a light frame without the typical side effects of anabolic androgenic steroid use.

At what doses does clostebol give benefits without the typical side effects?

- "And finally, why haven't any of the 3 doping experts concluded such?"
LOL, once again NO, the 3 "doping experts" only concluded that it is "plausible" that jannik sinner may have been transdermally "contaminated" by clostebol which does NOT mean at all that jannik sinner did not intentionally DOPE with clostebol since the 3 "doping experts" scientifically and objectively would have absolutely NO idea about what the "intentions" of jannik sinner were in jannik sinner's use of clostebol.

No, only one called it 'plausible', one called it 'entirely plausible - without evidence for any other scenario' and the third called it 'plausible is really high' and the end conclusion was none of them concluded anything else [3]. Also they concluded that the concentration found was non performance enhancing. [3]
Secondly, these are some of the worlds leading doping experts. Why should I ignore their conclusions and take those of a random internet anonymous internet user who so far has provided no foundation or sources for his claims, to be true?

Looking forward to read any sources for your claims.

[1] https://www.itia.tennis/tadp/testing-procedure/
[2] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 63, 64, 65 ]
[3] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 110 ]

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

To believe Sinner's story, you would have to believe the following:

1. Trainer bought for Physio the cream. Why would he? You could say that he just had it for personal use and lent it but then why would he have a cream that has a doping label on it and is well known in Italy for athletes getting banned for it anywhere near Sinner?
2. The Trainer told Physio that it is banned and to not use it anywhere near Sinner. Physio said he does not remember being told that which sounds absurd for somebody who works with Tennis pro and doping is a career destroyer
3. Physio worked for a Basketball team before that had a doping case with this same cream while he was staff. Again, he did not know about it?
4. Physio puts cream on his hand that has a cut and rubs his open wound on Sinner's open wound. Doubt that's even sanctioned in their profession but even if it is it's a patently absurd thing to do that would likely never happen.
5. Sinner dropping out of Olympics that has higher testing standards and are ruthless with their process is a pure coincidence
6. Trace amounts of this size cannot be found as a result of it being in your system for weeks (tested once a month) after most of it left system

And for anyone saying the amounts were so small people in MLB have been banned for similar amounts and the amount found is more to do with the cycle than dosage as far as I understand.

That's not even getting into the way all of this has been handled and all the suspicious things that have gone outside of the initial story.

• Sinner dropping out of Olympics that has higher testing standards and are ruthless with their process is a pure coincidence

This is everything we need to know.

 

[jeroenn]

• Sinner dropping out of Olympics that has higher testing standards and are ruthless with their process is a pure coincidence

This is everything we need to know.

In what way is the Olympics testing standard higher? Do they employ different testing methodology? Looking for different markers? Frequency of testing? In what way is the WADA approved testing in tennis inferior?

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

In what way is the Olympics testing standard higher? Do they employ different testing methodology? Looking for different markers? Frequency of testing? In what way is the WADA approved testing in tennis inferior?

Don't know. Why did he skip the Olympics?

 

[jeroenn]

Don't know. Why did he skip the Olympics?

Ask him.

But since he, as an active player is subject to in and out of competition WADA approved testing, unannounced at any time, claiming he skipped because of doping test seems unlikely to me. Because he can still be tested even during those days.

 

[Tennis Devolution]

Evidence would be nice, do you have anything remotely scientific to back your LOLs up?

What kind of "scientific evidence" do you want. Everything that I have said can easily be scientifically verified.

 

[Tennis Devolution]

What dosage would be needed and for how long to have any meaningful benefit? If the moment of cycling is important in order to be safe from testing, how does one cycle Clostebol in the event that drug testing is random, both in and out of competition without advance notice? [1]



There is no need to microdose? Awesome, that was one of the many arguments used by people here.
Please enlighten us, which chemicals can be used to mask Clostebol? How would this 'cycling smartly' look like?
Given that there were metabolites found in Sinner, we can assume that masking wasn't used? Also given the randomized testing in and out of competition, we can assume that cycling wasn't used? If not, how exactly?




Care to share any sources for these claims? Given that metabolites were found in Sinner, we can assume that these 'different chemical versions of clostebol' were not used?
Also, the claim made by others was that clostebol was used as masking agent to cover other (non specified) PED's and my point related to that.




Please explain how this cycling works, keeping in mind that there is randomized unannounced testing in tennis [1] , both during and outside of competition. So your contention is that Sinner isn't looking to gain relatively large increases in muscle strength.
Why would a high end athlete then take such a risk for his career, reputation etc by using illegal PED's? Or is it your contention that Sinner is unable to gain these increments in a normal way?




How much would this advantage be, compared to regular training? Is it your claim that Sinners current level can only be explained by means of PEDs?



At what doses does clostebol give benefits without the typical side effects?



No, only one called it 'plausible', one called it 'entirely plausible - without evidence for any other scenario' and the third called it 'plausible is really high' and the end conclusion was none of them concluded anything else [3]. Also they concluded that the concentration found was non performance enhancing. [3]
Secondly, these are some of the worlds leading doping experts. Why should I ignore their conclusions and take those of a random internet anonymous internet user who so far has provided no foundation or sources for his claims, to be true?

Looking forward to read any sources for your claims.

[1] https://www.itia.tennis/tadp/testing-procedure/
[2] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 63, 64, 65 ]
[3] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 110 ]

ALRIGHTY once again, let me completely address all of your completely misinformed points.

"What dosage would be needed and for how long to have any meaningful benefit? If the moment of cycling is important in order to be safe from testing, how does one cycle Clostebol in the event that drug testing is random, both in and out of competition without advance notice?"

-Any dosage of clostebol can create a PED effect since any level of PED has a PED effect whether small or large. "Meaningful benefit" is completely dependent on the physiology of the athlete and some athletes may need more or less clostebol depending on their own goals so experimentation with various clostebol dosages is required. Random drug testing is not conducted continuously so there are plenty of windows of time where one can easily cycle a dose of clostebol and evade detection if one can effectively mask and eliminate clostebol from the body quickly.

"There is no need to microdose? Awesome, that was one of the many arguments used by people here. Please enlighten us, which chemicals can be used to mask Clostebol? How would this 'cycling smartly' look like? Given that there were metabolites found in Sinner, we can assume that masking wasn't used? Also given the randomized testing in and out of competition, we can assume that cycling wasn't used? If not, how exactly?"

-Clostebol not having to be microdosed necessarily does not mean at all that clostebol cannot be microdosed. As stated before, PED masking methodologies such as the use of various diuretics that eliminate the metabolites of PEDs very rapidly and the creation of various "designer drugs" that mimic the action of clostebol but cannot be detected at all by standard drug testing can all be utilized by doping athletes and has been utilized by doping athletes in order to completely evade and pass random drug testing while cycling various PEDs. Clostebol metabolites being found in jannik sinner does not mean at all that jannik sinner was not intentionally attempting to mask his use of clostebol because it could easily just mean that jannik sinner was incapable of being succcessful at eliminating his clostebol metabolites rapidly enough for drug testing to not detect his clostebol metabolites. Once again, random drug testing does not prevent at all doping athletes from successfully cycling various PEDs and avoiding detection from standard random drug testing through PED masking methodologies such as the use of various diuretics that eliminate the metabolites of PEDs very rapidly and the creation of various "designer drugs" that mimic the action of clostebol but cannot be detected at all by standard drug testing. Read about drug microdosing in order to achieve therapeutic effects here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38280630/. Read about diuretic use to mask PED use here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2962812/. Read about "designer drugs" that can completely evade detection from standard drug tests due to the novel chemical structure of "designer drugs" here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7225206/.

"Care to share any sources for these claims? Given that metabolites were found in Sinner, we can assume that these 'different chemical versions of clostebol' were not used? Also, the claim made by others was that clostebol was used as masking agent to cover other (non specified) PED's and my point related to that."

-The idea of clostebol being able to be used as a masking agent for other types of PEDs does not counter at all the scientific objective fact that the use of clostebol itself can be masked in doping athletes. Once again, clostebol metabolites being detected in jannik sinner does not mean at all that jannik sinner is not using "designer drugs" that are various different chemical versions of clostebol and other PEDs because if the different chemical version of clostebol that jannik sinner is using is close enough to the chemical version(s) of clostebol that standard drug testing can detect, then that different chemical version of clostebol will be detected simply as clostebol. Once again, read about drug microdosing in order to achieve therapeutic effects here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38280630/. Read about diuretic use to mask PED use here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2962812/. Read about "designer drugs" that can completely evade detection from standard drug tests due to the novel chemical structure of "designer drugs" here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7225206/.

"Please explain how this cycling works, keeping in mind that there is randomized unannounced testing in tennis [1] , both during and outside of competition. So your contention is that Sinner isn't looking to gain relatively large increases in muscle strength. Why would a high end athlete then take such a risk for his career, reputation etc by using illegal PED's? Or is it your contention that Sinner is unable to gain these increments in a normal way? How much would this advantage be, compared to regular training? Is it your claim that Sinners current level can only be explained by means of PEDs?"

-Once again as I have repeatedly explained, random drug testing does not prevent at all doping athletes from successfully cycling various PEDs and avoiding detection from standard random drug testing through PED masking methodologies such as the use of various diuretics that eliminate the metabolites of PEDs very rapidly and the creation of various "designer drugs" that mimic the action of clostebol but cannot be detected at all by standard drug testing. Athletes must dope with PEDs in order to even to be able to compete with other top athletes who are doping with PEDs and make a living so athletes have no choice but to find ways to dope with PEDS in the most efficient, undetectable way possible. It is scientifically and medically impossible for endogenously produced androgens to have the exact same clinical effects as exogenously administered androgens such as clostebol which would enhance the muscular strength, speed, recovery, and physiology of jannik sinner in ways that endogenously produced androgens and "regular training" cannot. I never stated that jannik sinner's current level is only due to PED use, but undoubtedly PED use with clostebol scientifically and objectively would significantly enhance the physical performance of jannik sinner.

 

[Tennis Devolution]

What dosage would be needed and for how long to have any meaningful benefit? If the moment of cycling is important in order to be safe from testing, how does one cycle Clostebol in the event that drug testing is random, both in and out of competition without advance notice? [1]



There is no need to microdose? Awesome, that was one of the many arguments used by people here.
Please enlighten us, which chemicals can be used to mask Clostebol? How would this 'cycling smartly' look like?
Given that there were metabolites found in Sinner, we can assume that masking wasn't used? Also given the randomized testing in and out of competition, we can assume that cycling wasn't used? If not, how exactly?




Care to share any sources for these claims? Given that metabolites were found in Sinner, we can assume that these 'different chemical versions of clostebol' were not used?
Also, the claim made by others was that clostebol was used as masking agent to cover other (non specified) PED's and my point related to that.




Please explain how this cycling works, keeping in mind that there is randomized unannounced testing in tennis [1] , both during and outside of competition. So your contention is that Sinner isn't looking to gain relatively large increases in muscle strength.
Why would a high end athlete then take such a risk for his career, reputation etc by using illegal PED's? Or is it your contention that Sinner is unable to gain these increments in a normal way?




How much would this advantage be, compared to regular training? Is it your claim that Sinners current level can only be explained by means of PEDs?



At what doses does clostebol give benefits without the typical side effects?



No, only one called it 'plausible', one called it 'entirely plausible - without evidence for any other scenario' and the third called it 'plausible is really high' and the end conclusion was none of them concluded anything else [3]. Also they concluded that the concentration found was non performance enhancing. [3]
Secondly, these are some of the worlds leading doping experts. Why should I ignore their conclusions and take those of a random internet anonymous internet user who so far has provided no foundation or sources for his claims, to be true?

Looking forward to read any sources for your claims.

[1] https://www.itia.tennis/tadp/testing-procedure/
[2] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 63, 64, 65 ]
[3] https://www.itia.tennis/media/yzgd3xoz/240819-itia-v-sinner.pdf [ 110 ]

"At what doses does clostebol give benefits without the typical side effects?"

-Once again, the physiology of every individual is different so various dosages of clostebol will cause various side effects in various individuals. Regardless, clostebol has relatively weaker anabolic androgenic effects compared to other anabolic androgenic PEDs so thus on average clostebol will cause less side effects of anabolic androgenic drug use in various individuals.

"No, only one called it 'plausible', one called it 'entirely plausible - without evidence for any other scenario' and the third called it 'plausible is really high' and the end conclusion was none of them concluded anything else [3]. Also they concluded that the concentration found was non performance enhancing. [3]"

-Once again NO, simply stating that jannik sinner may have "plausibly" transdermally absorbed clostebol through the completely subjective eyewitness testimonies of his own entourage does NOT mean at all that jannik sinner did not intentionally dope with usage of clostebol because there is NO ONE who can scientifically and objectively measure the "intention" of an individual which thus means it is scientifically impossible to reliably differentiate between "unintentional" and "intentional" doping. The definition of what concentration of PED is "non-enhancing" is completely subjective since any level of PED has a biological PED effect on a biological living system regardless of how small and the clostebol concentration found in jannik sinner at the time of his drug test scientifically and objectively does NOT mean at all that the specific clostebol concentration found in jannik sinner at the time of his drug test was the maximum clostebol concentration that jannik sinner was utilizing for doping purposes since every PED is pharmacokinetically exponentially eliminated from the body.

"Secondly, these are some of the worlds leading doping experts. Why should I ignore their conclusions and take those of a random internet anonymous internet user who so far has provided no foundation or sources for his claims, to be true? Looking forward to read any sources for your claims."

-LOL once again, anyone who has true experience in research and medicine completely understands that there are no "experts" because scientific knowledge is always constantly changing and evolving. It is always better to objectively analyze things on your own instead of blindly accepting the analysis of "experts". I have provided you with multiple peer-reviewed articles from the scientific literature that completely scientifically and objectively verify everything that I have said so now I fully look forward to expecting you to provide ample peer-reviewed articles from the scientific literature that can actually counter anything that I have said.

 

[jeroenn]

-LOL once again, anyone who has true experience in research and medicine completely understands that there are no "experts" because scientific knowledge is always constantly changing and evolving. It is always better to objectively analyze things on your own instead of blindly accepting the analysis of "experts". I have provided you with multiple peer-reviewed articles from the scientific literature that completely scientifically and objectively verify everything that I have said so now I fully look forward to expecting you to provide ample peer-reviewed articles from the scientific literature that can actually counter anything that I have said.

Ok, I've downloaded all the studies you cited and I will read them carefully.

The fact that the word 'clostebol' doesn't appear in any of them doesn't give me a lot of confidence that these will answer the questions, because as you, as someone who clearly expressed expertise in research, obviously knows well, you can't compare apples and oranges, but let's see how this pans out. I will return to you shortly.