Team Default

S

stever

New User
I have had an interesting scenario that just played out in my USTA 7.0 mixed league. Two teams get in a disagreement about re-scheduling a match. One team gets really upset and ultimately refuses to honor the the re-schedule request. So the team that made the request has now been defaulted completely out of the league. We only had four teams to begin with and now down to three. The session is almost over as well so now all the matches we played with the default team do not count. Frustrated with the USTA rules on this :(. Anyone have this happen or any thoughts?
 
stever said:
I have had an interesting scenario that just played out in my USTA 7.0 mixed league. Two teams get in a disagreement about re-scheduling a match. One team gets really upset and ultimately refuses to honor the the re-schedule request. So the team that made the request has now been defaulted completely out of the league. We only had four teams to begin with and now down to three. The session is almost over as well so now all the matches we played with the default team do not count. Frustrated with the USTA rules on this :(. Anyone have this happen or any thoughts?
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Why did the match need to be re-scheduled? Was it because of rain, or because one of the teams just wanted to change the date for some reason?

If because of rain, the home team would offer the away team a couple of alternate dates/times from which to choose. So it doesn't sound like that.

If for some other reason (e.g. lack of player availability), the team wanting to reschedule is at the mercy of the other team, since you need the agreement of the opposing captain in order to change the date once established.

Most captains are going to be reasonable about things. We're here to play tennis after all. But there are always a few who take it as seriously as WWII. And if the opposing captain refuses to entertain any alternate dates, the requesting team has no choice but to play on the original date.

Which leads to the next rule, which is that if a team defaults an entire match, then the league has the option of kicking them out entirely. Usually they won't do that unless that team/captain already has a negative track record.

So in your case, it sounds like the requesting team could not get the opposing captain to agree to a rechedule, defaulted the match, probably had some history of defaults or other shenanigans, and so got removed from the league. And as to the opposing captain, maybe he/she was being a jerk, but maybe he/she was also aware of the history of the requesting team.

This whole scenario is very very rare and I have never seen this happen myself. Most captains and teams are very cooperative and just want to play some good tennis.
 
It was a player availability re-schedule request. I understand it is the opposing team's captain option at accepting or denying the request. As you said, we all just want to play. According to the local league coordinator the captain of the defaulting team was fine, no issues. She said, the USTA rule is something like; "..all teams must play the same amount of matches. So if one team got a default match win, it wouldn't be fair to other teams" I am waiting on clarification on that from higher ups at USTA.
 
They have the same rule in ALTA. Default an entire match, and your team gets pulled for the season. Captain usually get suspended, too.
 
I think if a team can't be bothered to field a single line for a match then they should absolutely be defaulted out for the season. I seriously can't imagine what scenario would cause us to not field a single line.
 
stever said:
It was a player availability re-schedule request. I understand it is the opposing team's captain option at accepting or denying the request. As you said, we all just want to play. According to the local league coordinator the captain of the defaulting team was fine, no issues. She said, the USTA rule is something like; "..all teams must play the same amount of matches. So if one team got a default match win, it wouldn't be fair to other teams" I am waiting on clarification on that from higher ups at USTA.
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It's funny how you jumped to blame USTA in your original post. I guess it's fashionable. USTA rules are clear about rescheduling and they do encourage captains to be reasonable and accommodating. I have been a captain for last 5 years, and I have been at both ends of rescheduling requests. I have never seen or even heard of a team getting kicked out of league due to no show.

It is your captain's responsibility to make sure that there are enough players in the team. The schedules are posted well in advance. The captain can add new players to the roster just to avoid total match default. So I will squarely blame it on the captain if he/she cannot find just 4 players to avoid total match default.

No captain will refuse to reschedule a match if you have a good reason and you make the request right way. Every year I see matches getting postponed because they were scheduled on the Easter day or Thanksgiving day and such. No captain in their right mind will refuse those requests. Some captains act as if it's their right to reschedule the matches at their will. I have no sympathy for captains who approach me 2 days before the match and ask for reschedule because their "key" players are playing districts of another league on the same day.

I have learned over time that it's difficult to get enough players on long weekends. So I avoid long weekends for my home matches and if we have an away match, I check player availability few weeks in advance.

The rescheduling is a business between the two captains. I just can't see how USTA can be blamed for it.

-Josh
 
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tennis4josh said:
It's funny how you jumped to blame USTA in your original post. ......I have never seen or even heard of a team getting kicked out of league due to no show......
-Josh
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That is the part of the USTA rules I am frustrated with. Ten matches in our league are now null & void because of one match default.

I have been a captain with USTA for a few years now as well. This is the first time on a mixed team though and this is also the first time I have even heard about re-scheduling. In my experience, guy's leagues are better in the that respect.:)

I am well aware about adding players at the last minute. Due to a bunch of late in the season injuries, I was about to add a couple to our team for this Sunday's match. Basically if we win Sunday, we win the league and go to play-offs. Now with this default team issue, our last match is Sunday. The new couple can't participate in the playoffs as they will only have one match in. So we are going with two lines. We beat the same team last time with two lines, so wish me luck :)
 
tennis4josh said:
It's funny how you jumped to blame USTA in your original post. I guess it's fashionable. USTA rules are clear about rescheduling and they do encourage captains to be reasonable and accommodating. I have been a captain for last 5 years, and I have been at both ends of rescheduling requests. I have never seen or even heard of a team getting kicked out of league due to no show.

-Josh
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You need to read up on the USTA rules. If a team defaults all 5 lines in a single match, they default all their matches for the season. This has actually happened twice in my league. The first time a team with just barely enough players had to play a team that was a very far drive- about 1.5 hours. They were a bad team and there was little interest so they just told the other captain they were defaulting the match. When that occurred the LC informed the team they would default the entire season by national rules- she emailed everyone in the league a copy.

More recently a team defaulted all 5 lines because their captain told the team the wrong start time. The LC informed the captain that unless the other captain was willing to reschedule a makeup they would default the entire season.
 
2.03L Scoring of Team Defaults.
If a team defaults an entire team match for any reason during
round robin play, then all matches of that team played or to be played, shall be null and void when determining standings. If all teams in contention for the Championships have already played the defaulting team in good faith, the matches stand as played. The section may imposefurther sanctions or penalties on said team.

From Q and A:
Question: Within USTA League Regulation dealing with Scoring a Team Default, what is the definition of "in contention?”
Answer:
Interpretation: "In contention” has been defined as "Any team that has a mathematical chance to win or place second in the event at the time the default occurs." See Regulation: 2.03L

Question:
Regulation 2.03L Championship Scoring a Team Default states:
“If a team defaults an entire team match for any reason during round robin play, then all matches of that team, played or to be played shall be null and void. . . .”

Is the local league required to follow this regulation if no alternative rule is in place at the section, district or local level?

Answer:
Yes. If the section, district or local league does not have a specific rule in place to cover a full team default it must follow the national championship regulation. Remember, the objective is to play the match. The Section is encouraged to put a procedure in place. If they elect to use the championship rule, they should beaware that if all teams in contention have played the defaulting team
–
those scores will stand. For example, if the first place team defaults an entire team match (unable to contest the match for the team point), and the section, district or local league have elected to use the championship rule, that team is subject to the regulation in place for championships (The other teams that have a chance to win the competition should be credited with the matches played against this team.)
See Regulation:
2.03L
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So apparently sections can place their own rules in for team defaults, but if they don't you have to follow the national rule.
 
Overdrive said:
Thanks to Cindy and the other League players here on TW, I'm never joining any leagues.

:cool:
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People only post here when something unusual happens. 90% of the time in league play, you just play your match without drama and then get beer/food afterwards. I would say the amount of "incidents" that rise to level of drama are about the same in league, tournament and social club play in my experience.
 
tennis4josh said:
It's funny how you jumped to blame USTA in your original post. I guess it's fashionable. USTA rules are clear about rescheduling and they do encourage captains to be reasonable and accommodating. I have been a captain for last 5 years, and I have been at both ends of rescheduling requests. I have never seen or even heard of a team getting kicked out of league due to no show.

It is your captain's responsibility to make sure that there are enough players in the team. The schedules are posted well in advance. The captain can add new players to the roster just to avoid total match default. So I will squarely blame it on the captain if he/she cannot find just 4 players to avoid total match default.

No captain will refuse to reschedule a match if you have a good reason and you make the request right way. Every year I see matches getting postponed because they were scheduled on the Easter day or Thanksgiving day and such. No captain in their right mind will refuse those requests. Some captains act as if it's their right to reschedule the matches at their will. I have no sympathy for captains who approach me 2 days before the match and ask for reschedule because their "key" players are playing districts of another league on the same day.

I have learned over time that it's difficult to get enough players on long weekends. So I avoid long weekends for my home matches and if we have an away match, I check player availability few weeks in advance.

The rescheduling is a business between the two captains. I just can't see how USTA can be blamed for it.

-Josh
Click to expand...

You are right. It's a lot more fun to blame "the USTA" than to read and understand the league rules. This is USTA National Rule 2.03L.

2.03L Scoring of Team Defaults. If a team defaults an entire team
match for any reason during round robin play, then all matches of that
team played, or to be played, shall be null and void when determining
standings. If all teams in contention for the championships have already
played the defaulting team in good faith, those matches stand as played.
The Section may impose further penalties on said team.

I frequently hear captains and players say that the team "gets kicked out of the league" for a full team default. That's not the case, but it sounds a lot more fun than "their results were removed from the overall standings since the default affected the standings for the teams in contention".
 
That rule is strange. We've had teams default matches occassionally over the years. Never once have I seen it nullify results from other matches already played.
 
Just so you know, every league is not the same regarding requests to reschedule.

In our league, the schedule comes out and that is it. No one has the right to ask that a match be rescheduled, and no one must grant such a request. In all the times I have captained (over 20 teams), I have never seen this happen.

As captain, you can add players any time if you don't have enough players. It is your responsibility to have a roster large enough to field full line-ups even for the most wildly inconvenient matches. If you cannot, the other captain will take your default.

The reason for this is that the league pays for court time at $18/player for the entire season. If a team wishes to reschedule, that money is not refunded. So you play when you are scheduled, period.

If a team does default all lines (which happens if the captain sends the whole team to the wrong place or tells them the wrong time), the league will disregard the default for purposes of determining the standings of the team that won the default. So if I lost to Team X but Team X defaulted the match to you, then the league will disregard Team X to figure out whether you or I won the flight.
 
That wasn't an insult, it was a necessary fact. Of course my post would be quoted by the same people as always.

Congrats for being the runner-up for the Hypocrite of the Year.
 
Overdrive said:
That wasn't an insult, it was a necessary fact. Of course my post would be quoted by the same people as always.

Congrats for being the runner-up for the Hypocrite of the Year.
Click to expand...

Coming in second to you I expect. Why don't you tell us all more about your victories over computer-rated 5.0 level players after playing tennis only two years? That's always good for a laugh.
 
Actually, you may know the winner of the award.
On second thought, it's a tie between you and the Agassi avatar.

Using previous posts to attack me?

You can't get any more sophomoric.
 
Overdrive said:
Actually, you may know the winner of the award.
On second thought, it's a tie between you and the Agassi avatar.

Using previous posts to attack me?

You can't get any more sophomoric.
Click to expand...

So you don't stand behind what you have previously posted? That would make you, what do they call them, oh yes I remember now, a liar.
 
Did I post that I don't?

You clearly can't read past grade-school level and/or you're blind as a bat.

Get those eyes and cognitive functions checked.
 
Overdrive said:
Did I post that I don't?

You clearly can't read past grade-school level and/or you're blind as a bat.

Get those eyes and cognitive functions checked.
Click to expand...

Then let's hear more about those amazing victories. Like for example some names of the 5.0 C players you've beaten. You clearly can't remember from one lie to the next and I expect you believe everyone reading your bilgewater is as gullible as you are, which is is typical of liars. You'd better run upstairs now and tell your mom someome on the Internet is picking on you.
 
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Cindysphinx said:
Just so you know, every league is not the same regarding requests to reschedule.

In our league, the schedule comes out and that is it. No one has the right to ask that a match be rescheduled, and no one must grant such a request.

...

If a team does default all lines (which happens if the captain sends the whole team to the wrong place or tells them the wrong time), the league will disregard the default for purposes of determining the standings of the team that won the default. So if I lost to Team X but Team X defaulted the match to you, then the league will disregard Team X to figure out whether you or I won the flight.
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This is how is works down here in Metro Richmond VA.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Just so you know, every league is not the same regarding requests to reschedule.

In our league, the schedule comes out and that is it. No one has the right to ask that a match be rescheduled, and no one must grant such a request. In all the times I have captained (over 20 teams), I have never seen this happen.

As captain, you can add players any time if you don't have enough players. It is your responsibility to have a roster large enough to field full line-ups even for the most wildly inconvenient matches. If you cannot, the other captain will take your default.
Click to expand...

That is how it is for ALTA. There are matches that are almost always rescheduled (Easter, 4th of July weekend) but other than that people may ask that a match or a few lines get played early but those requests often aren't accomodated. We have had a few team trips (destination weddings or vegas) where we have had to add several people to the roster in order to fill a full lineup. It would never occur to me to be irritated at the other team for not wanting to play early just because we would find it more convenient.
 
spot said:
There are matches that are almost always rescheduled (Easter, 4th of July weekend) but other than that people may ask that a match or a few lines get played early but those requests often aren't accomodated. We have had a few team trips (destination weddings or vegas) where we have had to add several people to the roster in order to fill a full lineup. It would never occur to me to be irritated at the other team for not wanting to play early just because we would find it more convenient.
Click to expand...
Same here on the standard "reschedules." Our league FAQ sheet goes so far as to "require" it if more than x-number of your team roster is involved in another league's/division's playoffs/districts and purposefully doesn't even schedule men's matches on Easter or Father's Day (even though I'm sure some of them would rather be on the courts than hangin' with the kids and spouse LOL). The women don't play on Sundays so there's no conflict with Mother's Day. Play on Memorial Day or the 4th is hit-or-miss. Sometimes it's pre-scheduled, other years not.

The one "off" time I know of involved a very tragic situation. Two of one club's players were involved in a fatal car accident prior to that week's play. As far as I know, neither captain flinched at the prospect of the match...never being played. Can't recall if it factored into any playoff stuff but I know if it had, they'd have worked it out. Despite being a large metro, tennis-playing community, we're tight knit. That one, sucked.
 
Yes, there is an official rule that if X% of your team is involved in post-season play, you have the absolute right to reschedule. The league handles the reschedule and unilaterally selects a new date.
 
Most league rules don't allow re-schedules other than for weather or USTA post season conflicts because of the problems that always come up. Typical scenario is as follows:

Captain A can't field a team this Saturday due to various player issues, so Captain A asks Captain B for a re-schedule. Captain B politely says "I need to check my teams schedules but I'll see what I can do and get back to you." Captains B finds out that a re-schedule is going to be a nightmare due to her players tight schedules, so Captain B contacts Captain A in a timely manner and says "I'm sorry but I can't do it. We need to play the scheduled day." At that point Captain A should simply say "Thank you for checking. I understand." But what often happens is Captain A goes ballistic and berates Captain B for being unsportsmanlike, yada, yada, yada. Then they contact the LC who usually says go by the rules. Then Captain A yells at the LC for "siding with Captain B". This happens so often that most LC's just put in their local rules that re-scheduling is not allowed.
 
Wow, this thread took a different direction at times:???:

So Friday the teams worked out their differences came to an agreement on re-scheduling. USTA put the defulted team back in the league with all their scores. Now because my regular season now had two matches to go, I was able to add another couple for today's match. They ended up winning on court #3 for a team 2-1 win! Fun times:)
 
stever said:
Wow, this thread took a different direction at times:???:

So Friday the teams worked out their differences came to an agreement on re-scheduling. USTA put the defulted team back in the league with all their scores. Now because my regular season now had two matches to go, I was able to add another couple for today's match. They ended up winning on court #3 for a team 2-1 win! Fun times:)
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Congratulations! This is what I was saying in my first post. USTA does not take any pleasure in kicking the team out. In the rare instances when it happens it's almost always the team captain's fault.

Never wait till very end to add new players. :)

-Josh
 
Update: We ended up winning the league and then winning the district championship! Now must wait until September for the sectional championships.
 
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