Tennis Arm, the Active Story?

rogerroger917 said:
Wut?
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Since you came into this thread all you've done is flail on about all the things you don't like, namely Oscar Wegner and MTM.

Why don't you just make a neat and concise list for everyone and put it in your signature? I think it will save everyone a lot of time.
 
travlerajm said:
I disagree with both parts of this statement. The current 20-something generation of ATP players is clearly inferior to past generations. I think the more angular motion of the "modern" forehand is a primary reason for this ineptitude.
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'Clearly inferior' I don't disagree but I would like to see a more rigorous explanation as to why you think so.

Inferior in what ways?
 
Knox said:
Since you came into this thread all you've done is flail on about all the things you don't like, namely Oscar Wegner and MTM.

Why don't you just make a neat and concise list for everyone and put it in your signature? I think it will save everyone a lot of time.
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I stated facts. You post fairy tales. Nothing to do with what I like or dislike.

I wrote a few ideas about the modern FH on a napkin in Spain many years ago. I have been told Rafael Nadal found the note and based his career on it. Totally legit.
 
Knox said:
Arm is 'passive' as its being pulled by the shoulders, once shoulders hit peak accel (ideally right before moment of contact) then the arm activates and 'adds on' to the acceleration from the hips and shoulders.


You ever do the office-chair-spin thing where you build momentum with all your limbs extended, and then pull your limbs in and start spinning crazy faster? That's the law of conservation of angular momentum in action, and it's what Federer utilizes to generate such effortless power. (Inertial tennis, anyone? @jch) So his arm basically goes from 'passive' to 'active'. Saying it's only one or the other is somewhat misleading. Does that make sense?


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The video is talking different aspect of angular momentum than what we are referring to - Federer's forehand. There is no a significant pulling the racket handle (or the fist) toward the rotation axis during the critical moments ( frames from 0:50-0:59 (forward swing before contact)) in Federer's forehand slow motion video I provided.

"arm activates and 'adds on' to the acceleration from the hips and shoulders". I've made remarks in other thread about this. Many player believe that by speed up the arm and hand to generate more racket head speed, the higher pace can be achieved. This is a misconception. The power distribution is a zero sum game. If the total muscle power for hitting a long/hard forehand is 100%, any increasing of the contribution by arm has the reducing effect on other muscle groups. But pitifully, the muscle groups on the arm are belonging to small muscle groups in comparison to bigger muscle groups below the shoulder. So the 'add on' by the arm will cause a subtraction of 'same amount' by bigger bigger muscle groups. I made a quote on the 'same amount' since it actually is not the same amount. Why? The arm is the closest to the racket. When a player try to do this add on, the wrist, elbow and the whole arm and shoulder became more rigid. The rigid arm reduce the ball stay on the string bed. That deprived a portion of time for ALL muscle groups to drive the ball.

This is the reason I said repeatedly about division of labor in tennis, for forehand and serve too. The arm's function is to absorb the ball, letting the ball to stay as long as possible on the string bed so that the body and lower body can drive the ball harder and LONGER. In short, let the body do the hitting, not the arm.
 
rogerroger917 said:
I stated facts. You post fairy tales. Nothing to do with what I like or dislike.

I wrote a few ideas about the modern FH on a napkin in Spain many years ago. I have been told Rafael Nadal found the note and based his career on it. Totally legit.
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Again, you seem to lack certain logical functions.

You claim to 'state facts' yet when I scroll up all I see are opinion-based claims lacking evidence.


Claiming that MTM is 'snake oil for beginners' … no evidence, no citations, just you presenting your opinion as fact. They call that 'Dogma' BTW. So... nice Dogma you got there.

Claimed that there are ZERO ATP coaches using MTM. Where's your facts, where's your evidence? Did you even *try* to prove yourself wrong? Why so dishonest?
 
Knox said:
Again, you seem to lack certain logical functions.

You claim to 'state facts' yet when I scroll up all I see are opinion-based claims lacking evidence.


Claiming that MTM is 'snake oil for beginners' … no evidence, no citations, just you presenting your opinion as fact. They call that 'Dogma' BTW. So... nice Dogma you got there.

Claimed that there are ZERO ATP coaches using MTM. Where's your facts, where's your evidence? Did you even *try* to prove yourself wrong? Why so dishonest?
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I left my fh method notes everywhere I've traveled over the world. Bud Collins claims I am responsible for tennis development all over the world except for Russia. They used Oscar's book there.
 
oserver said:
"arm activates and 'adds on' to the acceleration from the hips and shoulders". I've made remarks in other thread about this. Many player believe that by speed up the arm and hand to generate more racket head speed, the higher pace can be achieved. This is a misconception. The power distribution is a zero sum game.
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My friend, this is actually your misconception. It is not a zero-sum game. With proper synchronization it is possible to have 'compounded' power delivery. It's known as the "Kinetic Chain".

I will grant you that it is possible to screw up the kinetic chain and have momentum losses if the synchronization is not spot-on. BUT it is ALSO possible to get the kinetic chain perfectly, have no momentum losses, which will result in a a 'positive-sum' game.

PLEASE do not throw out the possibility of achieving a well-synchronized kinetic chain! You do not need to be an elite athlete! Anyone can do it!

I believe in you, oserver.
 
Drive through the ball doctrine had be held for so long in the past. Anything possesses a long memory has its die hard followers. Some like to go back. But I don't see the chances to abandon Oscar's cross body swing teaching and go back to the old, more linear swing patterns.
 
oserver said:
Where did I say "Feds fh being passive"? Can you find the quote? Here is what I said in the paper (Tennis Arm, the Active Story?):
"The biggest change is the way to use the arm. The active arm is replaced with a passive arm. Players used to swing the arm to increase the racket head speed. This is still the case for baseline slice shots today. But for modern topspin baseline forehand shots, the swinging function of the arm is reduced to minimum. In the forward swing phase, the arm is just for holding the racket and rotating it to change the racket face to meet the ball (not hitting the ball). Only in the backswing phase from the ready state, the arm is doing the swing back. If one watch the slow motion of Federer’s forehand, his arm is almost stationary relative to his center of gravity point. The arm is just following the rotation of the body. He does not try to speed up the arm to swing the racket head faster as the players did in CC era. This is a huge change, the change from an active arm to a passive arm."
To say "Feds fh being passive" is a big distortion and an atempt to confuse readers.
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its no distortion
I was talking about the ARM being passive. You have claimed repeatedly that feds arm is passive. Even came up with a passive arm serve. Now you are using MTM to justify your open passive serve based on Feds fh being passive- by that its clear that I am talking about the arm being passive.

Knox explains that feds arm is not passive. Its not passive its not passive. So all this passive arm serve because feds arm is passive falls on its face.

You wrote“The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” Knox explained thats not the case.
 
Shroud said:
its no distortion
I was talking about the ARM being passive. You have claimed repeatedly that feds arm is passive. Even came up with a passive arm serve. Now you are using MTM to justify your open passive serve based on Feds fh being passive- by that its clear that I am talking about the arm being passive.

Knox explains that feds arm is not passive. Its not passive its not passive. So all this passive arm serve because feds arm is passive falls on its face.

You wrote“The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” Knox explained thats not the case.
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And oserve says hundreds of times passive passive passive and now oscar comes on here and blows up his stuff. Lol.
 
In Spain I wrote elbow extension and pull on a restaurant bathroom wall using invisible marker. History has proven guga was having dinner there. He somehow had special glasses and saw my script when he went to the bathroom. He then went on to win Roland Garros. Bud Collins told me this.
sureshs said:
What about Spain and Argentina?
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sureshs said:
LOL.

He is even doing the promotion in the tennis books thread:

"Oscar Wegner's books are the best stroke-building manuals I've found so far."
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He is in between lessons with beginners on random ghetto courts and posting here. Dreaming of coaching ATP pros while asking old ladies to stalk the ball.
 
rogerroger917 said:
He is in between lessons with beginners on random ghetto courts and posting here. Dreaming of coaching ATP pros while asking old ladies to stalk the ball.
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Lol I love how you claim to speak facts while I'm in fantasyland, yet here you are telling make-believe stories about me. I really appreciate all the attention and admiration. I never knew I would develop a fanbase here so rapidly.

Do you ever stop and ask yourself "Am I a hypocrite?"
 
sureshs said:
LOL.

He is even doing the promotion in the tennis books thread:

"Oscar Wegner's books are the best stroke-building manuals I've found so far."
Click to expand...


rogerroger917 said:
In Spain I wrote elbow extension and pull on a restaurant bathroom wall using invisible marker. History has proven guga was having dinner there. He somehow had special glasses and saw my script when he went to the bathroom. He then went on to win Roland Garros. Bud Collins told me this.
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Lucky day folks, today we get to hear the sound of not one, but TWO trolls choking! I'm really sorry you two had to start failing so early in the morning.


Here's the deal, earlier in the thread I reported both of these guys to themselves. Neither of them were able to address what I said-- they seem to lack the self reflection necessary to admit fault and reform. These are two grown men, two grown men who think it's okay to stalk, harass, gang up and abuse people for fun on a tennis forum.

That's all the evidence anyone needs to assess the reliability of their perspective.
 
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Shroud said:
its no distortion
I was talking about the ARM being passive. You have claimed repeatedly that feds arm is passive. Even came up with a passive arm serve. Now you are using MTM to justify your open passive serve based on Feds fh being passive- by that its clear that I am talking about the arm being passive.

Knox explains that feds arm is not passive. Its not passive its not passive. So all this passive arm serve because feds arm is passive falls on its face.

You wrote“The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” Knox explained thats not the case.
Click to expand...

Federer's "ARM being passive" is not the same thing as "Feds fh being passive". If this is not distortion, then what it is?

“The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” This is based on many videos of Federer's forehand. Watch them again. It's a true statement.

The more active your arm is, the further you go to beginner tennis.
 
Knox said:
Lucky day folks, today we get to hear the sound of not one, but TWO trolls choking! I'm really sorry you two had to start failing so early in the morning.


Here's the deal, earlier in the thread I reported both of these guys to themselves. Neither of them were able to address what I said-- they seem to lack the self reflection necessary to admit fault and reform. These are two grown men, two grown men who think it's okay to stalk, harass, gang up and abuse people for fun on a tennis forum.

That's all the evidence anyone needs to assess the reliability of their perspective.
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You don't believe about my claim of influencing Spanish tennis? Bud Collins said so.
 
oserver said:
Federer's "ARM being passive" is not the same think as "Feds fh being passive". If this is not distortion, then what it is?

“The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” This is based on many videos of Federer's forehand. Watch them again. It's a true statement.

The more active your arm is, the further you go to beginner tennis.
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That's why mtm is beginner tennis. Lots of active stuff happening.
 
Knox said:
Lol I love how you claim to speak facts while I'm in fantasyland, yet here you are telling make-believe stories about me. I really appreciate all the attention and admiration. I never knew I would develop a fanbase here so rapidly.

Do you ever stop and ask yourself "Am I a hypocrite?"
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Hypocritical of what? I'm making stuff up.

You mtm folks are the ones trying to convince people of lies like Russia tennis is based on oscar wegners 1st book.
 
rogerroger917 said:
What is choking? I don't understand.
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Choking is what you're doing right now.

I exposed you as somebody who is either not capable or not interested in serious conversation. You failed to address the exposition, and continued to carry out the same behaviors that led me to assessing you as such in the first place.


I pointed out the fact that you have done nothing but make opinion-based claims lacking evidence. Your response? To make up a story about how I only have 2 clients that I teach in the ghetto. I reported you to yourself and you failed to address the report. That's a choke.
 
Knox said:
Choking is what you're doing right now.

I exposed you as somebody who is either not capable or not interested in serious conversation. You failed to address the exposition, and continued to carry out the same behaviors that led me to assessing you as such in the first place.


I pointed out the fact that you have done nothing but make opinion-based claims lacking evidence. Your response? To make up a story about how I only have 2 clients that I teach in the ghetto. I reported you to yourself and you failed to address the report. That's a choke.
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No I said oscar was coaching 2 students. Not you. Unless you are oscar. Are you?

Why are you even arguing with me it's obvious I can care less and am just goading you.
 
rogerroger917 said:
Why are you even arguing with me it's obvious I can care less and am just goading you.
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Dude, that's my point exactly. It's obvious that you're just trolling. You're only here to condescend, inflame, and derail conversation. That makes you a troll. I'm reporting you to yourself. If you had any self respect you would change your behavior.


When you're ready to start acting like an adult I'll be waiting.
 
I fail to see how pointing out the crazy mtm selling points like Russia tennis is based in mtm book as trolling. It's more like laughing at you guys.
Knox said:
Dude, that's my point exactly. It's obvious that you're just trolling. You're only here to condescend, inflame, and derail conversation. That makes you a troll. I'm reporting you to yourself. If you had any self respect you would change your behavior.


When you're ready to start acting like an adult I'll be waiting.
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rogerroger917 said:
I fail to see how pointing out the crazy mtm selling points like Russia tennis is based in mtm book as trolling. It's more like laughing at you guys.
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again, you seem to lack certain logical functions.

I never claimed Russia based its system on MTM.

I claimed that Bud Collins claimed that Russia based its system on MTM.

The distinction between those two claims is not trivial.

Further yet, it's a falsifiable claim. History is a thing. It's possible to verify whether or not it was actually the case. So maybe have some honesty and try and prove yourself wrong before you start laughing at things and calling them crazy?
 
Knox said:
again, you seem to lack certain logical functions.

I never claimed Russia based its system on MTM.

I claimed that Bud Collins claimed that Russia based its system on MTM.

The distinction between those two claims is not trivial.

Further yet, it's a falsifiable claim. History is a thing. It's possible to verify whether or not it was actually the case. So maybe have some honesty and try and prove yourself wrong before you start laughing at things and calling them crazy?
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Ah... I see. The "Inception" argument.

And why do you have to keep calling me names? I'm just pointing out the unlikely story you are giving. As some sort of proof of mtm.
 
rogerroger917 said:
Ah... I see. The "Inception" argument.

And why do you have to keep calling me names? I'm just pointing out the unlikely story you are giving. As some sort of proof of mtm.
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I'm not calling you names. I am using words that accurately describe your actions. If you would like to not have your actions described that way then stop acting that way.

You admitted that you don't care and that you're just trying to get under my skin, that's trolling. People who carry out trolling are trolls. Why so troll, troll?
 
Knox said:
I'm not calling you names. I am using words that accurately describe your actions. If you would like to not have your actions described that way then stop acting that way.

You admitted that you don't care and that you're just trying to get under my skin, that's trolling. People who carry out trolling are trolls. Why so troll, troll?
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What post of mine lacks logical function? I'm telling you your claims are not true. Cannot be proven. Unless we track down bud Collins.
 
You ask about which posts lack logical function?

rogerroger917 said:
What post of mine lacks logical function? I'm telling you your claims are not true. Cannot be proven. Unless we track down bud Collins.
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This one is a perfect example.

Which is it? Not true, cannot be proven, or not enough evidence yet? Can't be all three. You'd know this if you studied critical thinking.

You strike me as someone who pretends to understand logic but has never actually studied it or practiced it. Did you go to college?
 
Knox said:
You ask about which posts lack logical function?



This one is a perfect example.

Which is it? Not true, cannot be proven, or not enough evidence yet? Can't be all three. You'd know this if you studied critical thinking.

You strike me as someone who pretends to understand logic but has never actually studied it or practiced it. Did you go to college?
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It's most likely not true. People can make educated guesses. I cannot prove it. But I'm pretty sure I am right based on the history of oscar wegner.
 
rogerroger917 said:
It's most likely not true. People can make educated guesses. I cannot prove it. But I'm pretty sure I am right based on the history of oscar wegner.
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All I can say is that I recommend you speak more precisely so as not to present your educated guesses and things you cannot prove as facts.
 
Knox said:
All I can say is that I recommend you speak more precisely so as not to present your educated guesses and things you cannot prove as facts.
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But do you agree it is most likely untrue oscar wegner is the foundation of Russian tennis academies? Just typing it reads silly.

Answer?
 
rogerroger917 said:
But do you agree it is most likely untrue oscar wegner is the foundation of Russian tennis academies? Just typing it reads silly.

Answer?
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I really don't know. I haven't dug very deep because I don't think it's relevant to the efficacy of the program. Like I said, I'm only on MTM because I have yet to find something better.

Long answer:

It definitely sounds far fetched, but I don't think it's THAT unlikely. Remember this was pre-internet boom. What kind of tennis information did Russia have back then? I don't know. Couldn't have been that great...

The MTM books contain a comprehensive training methodology that can be used to develop a player all the way to total mastery. It was also one of the first books of its kind to be translated globally. With that in mind, say you're in a country with ZERO information about training tennis players in the native language, and then suddenly someone drops a translated comprehensive mastery plan on your desk... That's like finding the Holy Grail. The information in that mastery plan is going to spread FAST as it fills the vacuum. I think it's possible for that to have happened, but I'm not going to claim certainty either way.
 
Knox said:
I really don't know. I haven't dug very deep because I don't think it's relevant to the efficacy of the program. Like I said, I'm only on MTM because I have yet to find something better.

Long answer:

It definitely sounds far fetched, but I don't think it's THAT unlikely. Remember this was pre-internet boom. What kind of tennis information did Russia have back then? I don't know. Couldn't have been that great...

The MTM books contain a comprehensive training methodology that can be used to develop a player all the way to total mastery. With that in mind, say you're in a country with ZERO information about training tennis players, and then suddenly someone drops a comprehensive mastery plan on your desk... The information in that mastery plan is going to spread FAST as it fills the vacuum. I think it's possible for that to have happened, but I'm not going to claim certainty either way.
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Ok. There were no other tennis books around? That's silly.
 
rogerroger917 said:
So why mention it at all. Not logical.
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"say you're in a country with ZERO information about training tennis players, and then suddenly someone drops a comprehensive mastery plan on your desk... The information in that mastery plan is going to spread FAST as it fills the vacuum. I think it's possible for that to have happened, but I'm not going to claim certainty either way."
 
Knox said:
"say you're in a country with ZERO information about training tennis players, and then suddenly someone drops a comprehensive mastery plan on your desk... The information in that mastery plan is going to spread FAST as it fills the vacuum. I think it's possible for that to have happened, but I'm not going to claim certainty either way."
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Zero training metbods on tennis? Is that logical? Not really.
 
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