oserver

Professional
I really don't know. I haven't dug very deep because I don't think it's relevant to the efficacy of the program. Like I said, I'm only on MTM because I have yet to find something better.

Long answer:

It definitely sounds far fetched, but I don't think it's THAT unlikely. Remember this was pre-internet boom. What kind of tennis information did Russia have back then? I don't know. Couldn't have been that great...

The MTM books contain a comprehensive training methodology that can be used to develop a player all the way to total mastery. It was also one of the first books of its kind to be translated globally. With that in mind, say you're in a country with ZERO information about training tennis players in the native language, and then suddenly someone drops a translated comprehensive mastery plan on your desk... That's like finding the Holy Grail. The information in that mastery plan is going to spread FAST as it fills the vacuum. I think it's possible for that to have happened, but I'm not going to claim certainty either way.
Ok. There were no other tennis books around? That's silly.

There were certainly many books there, but mostly talking about history of tennis, not so much in touch with the then current and the future of tennis at that time. Oscar was a pioneer advocating newer tennis forms and techniques. Who else you know had more influences in modern tennis as a tour player and a coach?
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Ah, I see now, I don't think it's just that you lack logical function, it's that you also lack reading comprehension.
Yeah don't answer my question. Call me names.

There were no tennis coaches willing to be hired by Russia to coach the players? Oscar's book as the only resource available?
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
There were certainly many books there, but mostly talking about history of tennis, not so much in touch with the then current and the future of tennis at that time. Oscar was a pioneer advocating newer tennis forms and techniques. Who else you know had more influences in modern tennis as a tour player and a coach?
It wasn't that long ago. You talk like oscar was the only tennis coach back then.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Yeah don't answer my question. Call me names.

There were no tennis coaches willing to be hired by Russia to coach the players? Oscar's book as the only resource available?

Use your brain. That's not what I said.

Reading comprehension; never stop practicing.
 

oserver

Professional
It wasn't that long ago. You talk like oscar was the only tennis coach back then.

I didn't say he "was the only tennis coach back then". I said "Oscar was a pioneer advocating newer tennis forms and techniques. Who else you know had more influences in modern tennis as a tour player and a coach?"
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Do you just like, not understand how a hypothetical situation works?
I do understand. I am asking you why you insist on posting it even if it is not likely true. As you admit.

Your responses say their was a vacuum of tennis knowledge. Is this even true? No other coaches in the world can go to Russia then? Be hired by Russia?

If we are just going to post hypothetical ideas why do you get on my case when I do so?
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
I do understand. I am asking you why you insist on posting it even if it is not likely true. As you admit.

Your responses say their was a vacuum of tennis knowledge. Is this even true? No other coaches in the world can go to Russia then? Be hired by Russia?

If we are just going to post hypothetical ideas why do you get on my case when I do so?



I'm using hypothetical views to give you something to talk about. I could have just said "I don't know" and left it at that.

Big difference between hypothetical view as a conversation topic and hypothetic view as the foundation for an argument.

I said "information vacuums are a possibility" and you took that to make it seem like I'm saying that "an information vacuum is exactly what happened". That's misrepresenting my position.

Stop ****ing with me, dude. I know you know that you're acting ridiculous. You're not actually this stupid. Cut it out.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I'm using hypothetical views to give you something to talk about. I could have just said "I don't know" and left it at that.

Big difference between hypothetical view as a conversation topic and hypothetic view as the foundation for an argument.

I said "information vacuums are a possibility" and you took that to make it seem like I'm saying that "an information vacuum is exactly what happened". That's misrepresenting my position.

Stop ****ing with me, dude. I know you know that you're acting ridiculous. You're not actually this stupid. Cut it out.
Ok. Sorry. My best guess at the claim oscar wegner makes on Russia. He made it up to sell his book. This is the most likely and most plausible scenario. So we can all stop making up hypotheticals scenarios.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Ok. Sorry. My best guess at the claim oscar wegner makes on Russia. He made it up to sell his book. This is the most likely and most plausible scenario. So we can all stop making up hypotheticals scenarios.

Most likely and most plausible... I mean I could bite into those and we could go at it again... but I'm out of energy at this point.

I'd really like to talk about MTM the actual tennis training system. Not MTM the Oscar-Wegner-Murder-Mystery. Really sick of having every conversation about MTM getting derailed by someone who doesn't like Oscar's marketing.
 
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oserver

Professional
Some history from Oscar's article -

https://oscarwegner.wordpress.com/2014/06/28/evolution-in-tennis-instruction/

In the span of a decade I had the chance to compete against and practice with players spanning 3 generations, including Rod Laver, Pancho Gonzales, Lew Hoad, Pancho Segura, John Newcombe, Tony Roche, Manuel Santana, Martin Mulligan, Roger Taylor, the Flying Dutchman Tom Okker, Niki Pilic, Boro Jovanovic, Ronnie Barnes, etc, etc. It was then when I was able to observe the huge difference between the way the top pros play and the way tennis was being taught.

Unable to convince USA coaches, I then went to Spain. In 1973 the Spanish Tennis Federation appointed me Junior Davis Cup Captain and one of 3 national coaches in charge of the Federation’s Spanish Tennis School in Barcelona. We had the 28 best Spanish Juniors assembled in Barcelona and I put my ideas to the test. I immediately noticed that these kids were the best in the country because they played like the pros. First opposed by the 2 other coaches, who wanted to enforce the universal linear concept and closed stance on these marvelous “exceptions” to the rule, I insisted that their open-stance forehands and topspin should be maximized. The youngsters loved it, helped me convince the associated coaches, and the results within 2 months were spectacular: our trip to the 1973 Monte Carlo Open resulted in 4 Spanish juniors (and the winner, of course) in the semi-finals of one of the major tournaments in Europe, eliminating from the competition the representatives from the rest of the world. Spain, which had had just a handful of top players, including Manuel Santana (one of my favorite players and a model for the modern forehand) and at the time the buddying Manuel Orantes, would within decades become a major tennis force within the world.

It was at the Orange Bowl in 1973 that I first caught the attention of Bud Collins, the famous tennis historian who would notice the marvels of the


Spanish team juniors hitting with such pronounced topspin and open stance. He would later document this in my second book.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
USSR tennis player was in Wimbledon final in 1973, for example. Your claims about tennis knowledge in Russia are just ignorant.

I didn't make any claims about tennis knowledge in Russia. I specifically said I don't know. Put your claws away.
 

Dragy

Legend
I didn't make any claims about tennis knowledge in Russia. I specifically said I don't know. Put your claws away.
I just seem to jump into threads with harsh comments... meanwhile, it’s you who put it up to support your side in MTM discussion. In my opinion, you cannot just say “it’s not me it’s Bud Collins”.
Now USSR was a 270+ million country forming a power (and culture) block with lost of countries. Active in all sports, presented at all world events. It’s just never been in isolation, let alone information vacuum.
I’m personally not found of Soviets’ sports system, but we must admit Russian tennis has strong legacy (and obviously has always been influenced by world tennis development). The idea that it could ever happen in such away that there was nothing until The Book appeared all of a sudden... is weird.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
All I can say is that I recommend you speak more precisely so as not to present your educated guesses and things you cannot prove as facts.

That's a fair point. Given the above, I assume you have a source or citation for the Bud Collins Russia reference?

EDIT: I admit I find @rogerroger917's sense of humour (some call it trolling) occasionally amusing. If you aren't of that mindset then why engage him?
 
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Knox

Semi-Pro
That's a fair point. Given the above, I assume you have a source or citation for the Bud Collins Russia reference?

EDIT: I admit I find @rogerroger917's sense of humour (some call it trolling) occasionally amusing. If you aren't of that mindset then why engage him?

Oh the source on the Bud Collins claim is from the forward he wrote for Oscar's 1992 book and the instructional videos Oscar did with Bud, those are up on youtube if I remember correctly.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
I just seem to jump into threads with harsh comments... meanwhile, it’s you who put it up to support your side in MTM discussion. In my opinion, you cannot just say “it’s not me it’s Bud Collins”.
Now USSR was a 270+ million country forming a power (and culture) block with lost of countries. Active in all sports, presented at all world events. It’s just never been in isolation, let alone information vacuum.
I’m personally not found of Soviets’ sports system, but we must admit Russian tennis has strong legacy (and obviously has always been influenced by world tennis development). The idea that it could ever happen in such away that there was nothing until The Book appeared all of a sudden... is weird.

Like I said, I haven't dug into this topic and I don't know anything about Russia so I wasn't going to claim certainty either way. I only presented the information vacuum as a possibility because "I don't know" is a really boring answer. I'm not saying that's what actually happened.

Thank you for the clarifying information.
 

oserver

Professional
EDIT: I admit I find @rogerroger917's sense of humour (some call it trolling) occasionally amusing. If you aren't of that mindset then why engage him?
Oh the source on the Bud Collins claim is from the forward he wrote for Oscar's 1992 book and the instructional videos Oscar did with Bud, those are up on youtube if I remember correctly.

Oscar's MTM system was significant. It changed the prevailing teaching dogma of that time. When almost every coaches were still stick to the 'drive through the ball', advocating the more linear stroke patterns and closed stance form, he tried hard to wake people up. To go against prevailing beliefs and practices is not easy. I think some people have a mixed bag of feeling about him, including jealousy. After MTM, coaches had to switch to teach cross body swing, against their long held teaching dogma. Those mixed feelings can be seen today, like in this forum/thread.

It's a little surprise to me to see the strong feeling toward Oscar! Why people like to discredit him?
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Oh the source on the Bud Collins claim is from the forward he wrote for Oscar's 1992 book
Good enough for me.

It's a little surprise to me to see the strong feeling toward Oscar! Why people like to discredit him?
I don't know that much about MTM, but I do like how Oscar teaches beginners (can't find the video right now).

From observing other threads, it seems to me some of his coaching "claims" have been questioned more so than the actual methodologies, although they have also come under scrutiny.
 
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Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Federer's "ARM being passive" is not the same thing as "Feds fh being passive". If this is not distortion, then what it is?

The active arm is replaced with a passive arm.” This is based on many videos of Federer's forehand. Watch them again. It's a true statement.

The more active your arm is, the further you go to beginner tennis.
Its not a distortion. Its a contraction and everyone with a shred of tennis knowledge knows feds FH is one of the aggressive shots in tennis. So its clear by saying passive FH what is meant is passive ARM fh- particularly since thats what we were actually talking about.

And really man you have been distorting things for the last 4 years from the whole passive arm thing to mis stating stances to silly concepts like keeping the ball on the strings longer etc...and ingnoring any contradictory info like you are doing in this thread.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
It's a little surprise to me to see the strong feeling toward Oscar! Why people like to discredit him?

His principles didnt work for me and 6 lessons with an MTM coach didnt accomplish my goals of hitting biting topspin. So my experience is that it was an epic fail. Went to a non MTM coach and am hitting much better.

He seems like a braggart to me and a name dropper. Those kind of people bug me like they have some deficiency that is somehow now my problem...
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
His principles didnt work for me and 6 lessons with an MTM coach didnt accomplish my goals of hitting biting topspin. So my experience is that it was an epic fail. Went to a non MTM coach and am hitting much better.

He seems like a braggart to me and a name dropper. Those kind of people bug me like they have some deficiency that is somehow now my problem...

MTM cert exam is too easy. You probably got one of the many duds who read the book once and came away thinking they were tennis experts because they passed a multiple choice test.

The fact that the org left the door open for that possibility is definitely an epic, epic fail.
 

Stretchy Man

Professional
His principles didnt work for me and 6 lessons with an MTM coach didnt accomplish my goals of hitting biting topspin. So my experience is that it was an epic fail. Went to a non MTM coach and am hitting much better.

As they only known tennis player in the world to have tried the oserver coaching methods, how did they work out for you?
 

oserver

Professional
Its not a distortion. Its a contraction and everyone with a shred of tennis knowledge knows feds FH is one of the aggressive shots in tennis. So its clear by saying passive FH what is meant is passive ARM fh- particularly since thats what we were actually talking about.

And really man you have been distorting things for the last 4 years from the whole passive arm thing to mis stating stances to silly concepts like keeping the ball on the strings longer etc...and ingnoring any contradictory info like you are doing in this thread.

"with a shred of tennis knowledge knows feds FH is one of the aggressive shots in tennis." The aggressiveness comes from Federer's body and lower body, not from his arm. His arm is passively letting the body to drive the ball, not employing an active arm to deprive (or shorten) the crucial time for larger muscle groups to generate more pace.
 

oserver

Professional
His principles didnt work for me and 6 lessons with an MTM coach didnt accomplish my goals of hitting biting topspin. So my experience is that it was an epic fail. Went to a non MTM coach and am hitting much better.

He seems like a braggart to me and a name dropper. Those kind of people bug me like they have some deficiency that is somehow now my problem...

A generation of players like Federer and others followed Oscar's open stance, cross body swing teaching. If you could not get it, don't always blame the teacher. There is no way for a teacher to make all his/her student A+ grades.
 

oserver

Professional
As they only known tennis player in the world to have tried the oserver coaching methods, how did they work out for you?

How do you know everyone else is doing or not doing. Have you surveyed anyone?

Have you tried my method. If not, how do you know it is that bad as you described? If you tried, show me a video then I can tell you some thing.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
MTM cert exam is too easy. You probably got one of the many duds who read the book once and came away thinking they were tennis experts because they passed a multiple choice test.

The fact that the org left the door open for that possibility is definitely an epic, epic fail.
Yeah its possible though this guy was on Oscars site and I would think that would mean something.

It could just be the student. Had 4 coaches in the last 6 years and only one really made an impact
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Yeah its possible though this guy was on Oscars site and I would think that would mean something.

It could just be the student. Had 4 coaches in the last 6 years and only one really made an impact

They put you on the site if you pass the multiple choice exam, so unfortunately it doesn't mean much.

Did you get the biting topspin you were after?
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
They put you on the site if you pass the multiple choice exam, so unfortunately it doesn't mean much.

Did you get the biting topspin you were after?
Its better than it ever was. I think i can maximize it if I hit either on the way down or the top of the ball.

Those are concepts I havent really worked on.

Here is a recent vid. I do ok but it could be more.

 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Its better than it ever was. I think i can maximize it if I hit either on the way down or the top of the ball.

Those are concepts I havent really worked on.

Here is a recent vid. I do ok but it could be more.


Gah it's a shame you're not in the Bay Area any more.

Have you used John Yandell's training system? Your forehand looks like it takes a lot of cues from that system.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
As they only known tennis player in the world to have tried the oserver coaching methods, how did they work out for you?
Ha. He was hyping 360 serves (which he no longer seems to hype) so I tried it and he was doing 360 fh and bh. I tried that and well it was worse than my normal stuff especially the serve.

 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Ha. He was hyping 360 serves (which he no longer seems to hype) so I tried it and he was doing 360 fh and bh. I tried that and well it was worse than my normal stuff especially the serve.


Looks like a fun rally game for a group of kids. Like the final rounds of 'Around the World'
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Gah it's a shame you're not in the Bay Area any more.

Have you used John Yandell's training system? Your forehand looks like it takes a lot of cues from that system.
Yeah I know. Miss the bay area

Yep. John really helped me. Every coach was talking about contact points and John never did any of that. It just worked.

I tried doing what Oscar said in the vids but never seemed to be able to get it to look like the vid.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Yeah I know. Miss the bay area

Yep. John really helped me. Every coach was talking about contact points and John never did any of that. It just worked.

I tried doing what Oscar said in the vids but never seemed to be able to get it to look like the vid.

I don't think the vids provide enough info to actually get the system. Everything is interdependent and certain things are prerequisites for other things, so if you don't have all the pieces in the right place it just won't click. Going by the book, drill by drill, is the way to go IMO.

Did your MTM coach have you try any of the progressions? Like where you start with foam-ball hand tennis, learn the 3 F's, and then slowly progress to the around-the-cone drill and eventually rallying?

P.S. if you're ever back on the best coast hit me up. I guarantee you I can help you get more biting topspin. Like at least twice as much. Not exaggerating.
 

oserver

Professional
No Gary, I have no asked everyone in the world. That is why I said Shroud is the only 'known' player. Do you know anyone else who has tried your coaching methods?

Yes, the head coach in my club. I have a video but cannot post it without a permission from him.

Have some patient, will you? I said before, it would tale 5 to 10 years for the open tennis serve to be accepted. Just think about how many years for the modern forehand to evolve till this day. You are just too impatient.

A philosophical question for you: for tennis serves, the closed stance, continental grip and rapid flexing of wrist/elbow, active arm plus pronation have lasted more than a century; will it go on for another century?

Just take an educated guess - yes, no, 50 years, three hundred years?

If I make an educated guess for your answer, it would be:
None of the above.
Your answer is - forever:p!
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think the vids provide enough info to actually get the system. Everything is interdependent and certain things are prerequisites for other things, so if you don't have all the pieces in the right place it just won't click. Going by the book, drill by drill, is the way to go IMO.

Did your MTM coach have you try any of the progressions? Like where you start with foam-ball hand tennis, learn the 3 F's, and then slowly progress to the around-the-cone drill and eventually rallying?

P.S. if you're ever back on the best coast hit me up. I guarantee you I can help you get more biting topspin. Like at least twice as much. Not exaggerating.
I dont remember much. It was a frustrating first lesson. I remember the 45 degree drill where he fed me balls from the right net post with me at the t. I remember asking what grip I should use and getting in trouble for that. I recall going over the figure 8 swing and how it varied based on the ball etc. but not the stuff in the vids like catching the ball etc.

I recall some twisting footwork where you twist into the ground. I was excited through the 6 lessons but at the end of the day i never got what I wanted.
 

oserver

Professional
Ha. He was hyping 360 serves (which he no longer seems to hype) so I tried it and he was doing 360 fh and bh. I tried that and well it was worse than my normal stuff especially the serve.


Seriously, are you fit to do the 360 stuff?
 

oserver

Professional
Some of the "famous coaches" who like to discredit Oscar's works are no way near the level of excellences and influences achieved by Oscar, period. Some are just plain jealous to distort what Oscar had done.
 

oserver

Professional
Yeah its possible though this guy was on Oscars site and I would think that would mean something.

It could just be the student. Had 4 coaches in the last 6 years and only one really made an impact

4 coaches and counting! You are pretty serious in tennis. What the differences - I never hired a coach for one on one lessons. I'm an youTube tennis learner. Self learned to get a 4.0 USTA ranking and USPTA coach certificate in four years from a 2.5 ranking player. That may tell why we have so much differences in opinion. The good thing maybe that I'm free to do what I like and not be boxed tightly to follow whatever is prominent out there.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
4 coaches and counting! You are pretty serious in tennis. What the differences - I never hired a coach for one on one lessons. I'm an youTube tennis learner. Self learned to get a 4.0 USTA ranking and USPTA coach certificate in four years from a 2.5 ranking player. That may tell why we have so much differences in opinion. The good thing maybe that I'm free to do what I like and not be boxed tightly to follow whatever is prominent out there.

I got to 4.0 and made it to state completely self taught. It wasnt until years later I found tw and tried coaching to see how I could improve. One coach even asked how I hit my bh because he liked it and it was unorthodox.

And really have you even read my posts. I do my own thing. If it works for me I do it. But it has to have some logic behind it before I will try it.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
I dont remember much. It was a frustrating first lesson. I remember the 45 degree drill where he fed me balls from the right net post with me at the t. I remember asking what grip I should use and getting in trouble for that. I recall going over the figure 8 swing and how it varied based on the ball etc. but not the stuff in the vids like catching the ball etc.

I recall some twisting footwork where you twist into the ground. I was excited through the 6 lessons but at the end of the day i never got what I wanted.

Doesn't sound anything like MTM
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Some of the "famous coaches" who like to discredit Oscar's works are no way near the level of excellences and influences achieved by Oscar, period. Some are just plain jealous to distort what Oscar had done.
Yet Oscar does not promote anything like you do for the serve. Just the opposite. If there was a correlation someone as bright as Oscar would have seen it already. That hasnt happened because there is none
 
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