Tennis Arm, the Active Story?

Shroud said:
I got to 4.0 and made it to state completely self taught. It wasnt until years later I found tw and tried coaching to see how I could improve. One coach even asked how I hit my bh because he liked it and it was unorthodox.

And really have you even read my posts. I do my own thing. If it works for me I do it. But it has to have some logic behind it before I will try it.
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So why not try the Forehand Serve if you are still curious? I said repeatedly that forehand forms and techniques all can be used for serves. The overhead vs. non-overhead argument cannot stand for scrutiny, since our wrist/elbow/shoulder are very flexible. The proofs were there long ago with the modern forehand. It just happened that it was me, a 4.0 player/coach who found it in a DIY way, a little unfortunate. If I were a 5.5, that would be a more credible story. Too late for me now. I'm more worried about preventing injury and prolong my tennis life than to get a higher ranking.
 
Shroud said:
Yet Oscar does not promote anything like you do for the serve. Just the opposite. If there was a correlation someone as bright as Oscar would have seen it already. That hasnt happened because there is none
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You are right, but Oscar's contribution was mainly the ground strokes, not serves. One cannot be a total authority for everything, or even a single thing for long. Everything will evolve, not staying there forever.
 
oserver said:
So why not try the Forehand Serve if you are still curious? I said repeatedly that forehand forms and techniques all can be used for serves. The overhead vs. non-overhead argument cannot stand for scrutiny, since our wrist/elbow/shoulder are very flexible. The proofs were there long ago with the modern forehand.
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Because i dont believe that is the case in that there is a difference between what is possible and what is optimal. I can hit my fh with my left hand but being righthanded its not optimum. This is a major flaw in your thought: confusing possible with optimal.

And i dont see an improvement in your vids.
 
Shroud said:
Because i dont believe that is the case in that there is a difference between what is possible and what is optimal. I can hit my fh with my left hand but being righthanded its not optimum. This is a major flaw in your thought: confusing possible with optimal.

And i dont see an improvement in your vids.
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You don't see an improvement in my vids or you don't want to see an improvement in my vids;)?
 
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oserver said:
You don't see an improvement in my vids or you don't want to see an improvement in my vids;)?
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I want to play better tennis. If I thought there was any merit in your stuff I would try it.

And if I saw an improvement I would say so. But its not there. Its not just me either saying that
 
I often hear a coaching phrase "Try to increase your racket head speed" as an over and over repeating instruction to students. Most often than not, this is a directed to the active arm, for both serves and forehand too.

This is a phenomenon puzzled me for a long time. Why?

The same instruction for two very different model of strokes!

You see; the modern forehand and conventional serve (because the modern serve is still so traditional, so I'm refraining to use the phrase 'modern serve') are totally different animals. So the training instruction should be totally different too. One kind/size should not fits both.

In short, the rapid arm swing, quick flexing of the wrist and fast pronation (small pronation of arm) are used to increase the racket head speed for conventional serve, as shown by most if not every elite players with their closed stance and continental grip.

The opposite is true. A passive arm, minimal wrist flexing and slow but big pronation are used for modern forehand. This fits the open stance, open grip and open wrist (at contact point, the wrist is at extension state) model well.

For the curious mind, I have the third model that can be very interesting. It is for serves. In this model, I'll say "Don't try to increase your racket head speed by your arm". Then, "do every thing like that of a forehand as far as can (since at the contact point. it is difficult to let the wrist at a full extension state).
 
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oserver said:
In short, the rapid arm swing, quick flexing of the wrist and fast pronation (small pronation of arm) are used to increase the racket head speed for conventional serve, as shown by most every elite players with their closed stance and continental grip.
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Once again, you just don't get it the right way. Rapid arm swing is driven dominantly by shorten cycle of pec and lat muscles, together producing ISR from a stretched shoulder position, which has been achieved by leg drive and torso rotation, leaving the whole arm with racquet "lagging" into deep ESR - because of objects posessing mass have inertia. Now, no flexing of the wrist is effortfully performed, and it's forearm pronation which actually gets the wrist out of the way of rapidly pivoting racquet - preventing injury in follow through/slow-down. Basically, all arm effort presented in service motion is mostly responsible for guiding the powerful "throw" into the proper pivoting at the top of the swing, as well as controlling the optimal racquet orientation. Some most natural variations or serves - I believe, mild slice (not "weak", but with some-but-not-max sidespin) serves - can be perfomed with almost zero controlling of swingpath and racquet orientation, by just throwing the racquet timely onto the ball and holding the grip.
 
Stretchy Man said:
Two reasons really. I see no evidence that your new serve is any better than your old serve, and I only listen to coaches who are better than me. Is this wrong?
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Better in which way, playing of knowing?

Elite players hire coaches who know more, not better players than themselves. Otherwise top players don't have anyone to hire. If you are still young and have big potential, you should learn from them.

And you know, I happen to know a lot more about Forehand Serve stuff than anybody else. If you think my current serve is still at 4.0 level, not down graded to 3.5, that is still significant. Because we find an alternative to the current (or conventional serve styles). Just a few years ago, this is unimaginable (to many people, it is still unimaginable right now).

Anyone can learn both forehand and serve using the same (almost exact) forms and techniques. Is this fantastic?
 
Dragy said:
Once again, you just don't get it the right way. Rapid arm swing is driven dominantly by shorten cycle of pec and lat muscles, together producing ISR from a stretched shoulder position, which has been achieved by leg drive and torso rotation, leaving the whole arm with racquet "lagging" into deep ESR - because of objects posessing mass have inertia. Now, no flexing of the wrist is effortfully performed, and it's forearm pronation which actually gets the wrist out of the way of rapidly pivoting racquet - preventing injury in follow through/slow-down. Basically, all arm effort presented in service motion is mostly responsible for guiding the powerful "throw" into the proper pivoting at the top of the swing, as well as controlling the optimal racquet orientation. Some most natural variations or serves - I believe, mild slice (not "weak", but with some-but-not-max sidespin) serves - can be perfomed with almost zero controlling of swingpath and racquet orientation, by just throwing the racquet timely onto the ball and holding the grip.
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What drives the Rapid arm swing is not important? The important thing is the lagging of arm, not the leading of arm in swinging the racket. The body and lower body need to lead, not the arm. This is the modern forehand way. Another important thing is the reducing linear swing motion and increase the angular swing motion. Pronation of the wrist and elbow increases the linear swing motion to follow the old style forehand. The forehand serve style don't care about the arm pronation to go all angular swing motion by big muscle groups. It is simpler, and may be safer too. I think my tennis elbow problem was gone due to this simpler style of serves, but don't take my word for it. One man's practice is not significant statistically to mean anything.
 
rogerroger917 said:
No. Just people like you in my experience. Also if there is an mtm connection apparently.
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No MTM connection at all. Oscar came to our club one time with a few other coaches to have groups lessons, well before I started open tennis serve experiments. That's the only time I saw him. I found his article MTM article years later.
 
oserver said:
And you know, I happen to know a lot more about Forehand Serve stuff than anybody else. If you think my current serve is still at 4.0 level, not down graded to 3.5, that is still significant.
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Alright I'll give you that. You have spent 4 years practicing a serve that is slightly different and isn't any worse than your previous serve. Well done.
 
Stretchy Man said:
Alright I'll give you that. You have spent 4 years practicing a serve that is slightly different and isn't any worse than your previous serve. Well done.
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You know, I opened stance and grip to serve more than four years ago, but in most of this period (more than 3 years), I was still in a fixation state to stick to the pronation/active arm stuff. Not util last April, I realized that pronation/active arm stuff were belong to old school forehand, belonging to more linear stroke styles, not belonging to open stance/open grip that is more angular motion oriented. That is a moment of freedom to be out of the box completely. After a year or so practice, I rename the WETS serve to Forehand Serve.

So one year is nothing in terms of tennis evolution. To train my arm to be passive from old habit of fast arm swing takes some time. Your mind always like to direct you to use an active arm; like the saying - the old habit dies hard:(!
 
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oserver said:
To summarize, the #1 modern tennis story is about the passive arm. It is the minimization of arm’s contribution in pace generation for the forehand first. The same is going to happen in the serve. Federer let his hitting arm take the back seat in the forehand hitting, using an open stance and open grip; someone will do the same in serve at elite level soon, not tomorrow, not even next year, but soon, considering the slow evolution of tennis serves.

Above is the short summary of a paper I wrote recently about active arm vs. passive arm in tennis. Will passive arm goes beyond the forehand? What do you think?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tennis-arm-end-active-story-gary-e-lou/
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@oserver is like Homer Simpson trying to INVENT something just because they want to invent....

 
pabletion said:
Why the he11 would I ever try to RE-INVENT tennis???

Why would anybody???? 0_o
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"RE-INVENT"?! Everything was invented already by Federer and others. It is just a little twist of mind to realize that the forehand and serve is just a few vertical feet apart. That's all. Whatever suits for forehand suits serve too.
 
You just cannot hit a 150mph fh. I suppose if you are ok for a ATP pro to max out at 90mph for a serve your fh tennis serve method can work. If he wants to lose all the time. Lol.
oserver said:
"RE-INVENT"?! Everything was invented already by Federer and others. It is just a little twist of mind to realize that the forehand and serve is just a few vertical feet apart. That's all. Whatever suits for forehand suits serve too.
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rogerroger917 said:
You just cannot hit a 150mph fh. I suppose if you are ok for a ATP pro to max out at 90mph for a serve your fh tennis serve method can work. If he wants to lose all the time. Lol.
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Have you tried to hit a forehand standing on the tall umpire chair? Or Dig a big hole at baseline to ask the guy serve at 150mph to stand there to serve at a forehand height?
 
oserver said:
Have you tried to hit a forehand standing on the tall umpire chair? Or Dig a big hole at baseline to ask the guy serve at 150mph to stand there to serve at a forehand height?
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I gave you respond to this idea earlier, but you missed it, even though quoting my post. We see such condition - when players hit off the air/high bounce close to the net. Both FH drive volleys and OH smashes are used. FH ball speed never gets close to the OH smash ball speed. It's just that FH swing is incapable of producining anything similar in terms of RHS.
 
oserver said:
Have you tried to hit a forehand standing on the tall umpire chair? Or Dig a big hole at baseline to ask the guy serve at 150mph to stand there to serve at a forehand height?
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You cannot get the ball to travel st 150mph using fh technique. Your fallacy is because your own traditonal serve is so slow it compares to the same velocity of your fh. This is not so with advanced players.

Height of contact has nothing to do with it. Even if you allow an ATP pro to swing a fh as hard as he can normally or overhead as you theorize with no regard to if it lands anywhere near the tennis court the ball will never get close to 150mph. Players like sock and kyrgios hit jumping fhs extremely fast but it is not 150 mph. The mechanics of a fh stroke simply cannot generate the velocity compared to a serve. You are completely wrong. Your theory would only be correct if somehow there is an external force acting on a ball that is initially hit higher than a normal fh swing. There isn't. Only gravity. And the 2 or 3 ft of difference in elevation does not add 50mph in velocity. You are very wrong in your theory.
 
Dragy said:
I gave you respond to this idea earlier, but you missed it, even though quoting my post. We see such condition - when players hit off the air/high bounce close to the net. Both FH drive volleys and OH smashes are used. FH ball speed never gets close to the OH smash ball speed. It's just that FH swing is incapable of producining anything similar in terms of RHS.
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If you really like to know the result, can you do an experiment to let both FH and OH hit at the same spot and the contact point has the some height.
 
oserver said:
If you really like to know the result, can you do an experiment to let both FH and OH hit at the same spot and the contact point has the some height.
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I did hit numerous sidearm smashes around shoulder height. It’s easily faster than any FH variation.
 
I'm reminded of an old guy at my tennis club who thought he was a expert on everything. He was a reasonable player for 70 but would offer out-of-this-world coaching to everyone whether they were better than him or not. Problem with foot faulting? Clearly have a grip problem and need 6 month intensive coaching to correct it. He would advice the president of the local tennis association what their coaches were doing wrong.

He was also an 'expert' on plumbing, drain laying, concreting, electronics, computer programming, history, genealogy, musical theory, and showing too much interest in young girls. Creepy as ****.
 
Stretchy Man said:
I'm reminded of an old guy at my tennis club who thought he was a expert on everything. He was a reasonable player for 70 but would offer out-of-this-world coaching to everyone whether they were better than him or not. Problem with foot faulting? Clearly have a grip problem and need 6 month intensive coaching to correct it. He would advice the president of the local tennis association what their coaches were doing wrong.

He was also an 'expert' on plumbing, drain laying, concreting, electronics, computer programming, history, genealogy, musical theory, and showing too much interest in young girls. Creepy as ****.
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#1
 
I'm not saying it's because of me, but since I first discussed my radical new approach to forehands, I've noticed a few pro players such as Jock Sack now incorporating serving techniques into their forehands. Obviously as oserver pointed out, you cannot hit a forehand exactly like a serve - I'm not crazy! However you can use serving forms and techniques like what I call sideways trophy position, sideways racquet drop, and "throwing the racquet" at the ball when hitting forehands. Since you can hit the ball so much harder by "serving" a forehand, doesn't it seem strange no one has tried this until now?

Jack+Sock+2017+French+Open+Day+Two+UFYVUCa85uWl.jpg
 
Stretchy Man said:
I'm not saying it's because of me, but since I first discussed my radical new approach to forehands, I've noticed a few pro players such as Jock Sack now incorporating serving techniques into their forehands. Obviously as oserver pointed out, you cannot hit a forehand exactly like a serve - I'm not crazy! However you can use serving forms and techniques like what I call sideways trophy position, sideways racquet drop, and "throwing the racquet" at the ball when hitting forehands. Since you can hit the ball so much harder by "serving" a forehand, doesn't it seem strange no one has tried this until now?

Jack+Sock+2017+French+Open+Day+Two+UFYVUCa85uWl.jpg
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Yeah he is even using a common serve grip: mild eastern bh
 
Stretchy Man said:
I'm not saying it's because of me, but since I first discussed my radical new approach to forehands, I've noticed a few pro players such as Jock Sack now incorporating serving techniques into their forehands. Obviously as oserver pointed out, you cannot hit a forehand exactly like a serve - I'm not crazy! However you can use serving forms and techniques like what I call sideways trophy position, sideways racquet drop, and "throwing the racquet" at the ball when hitting forehands. Since you can hit the ball so much harder by "serving" a forehand, doesn't it seem strange no one has tried this until now?

Jack+Sock+2017+French+Open+Day+Two+UFYVUCa85uWl.jpg
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Shroud said:
Yeah he is even using a common serve grip: mild eastern bh
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"mild eastern bh", really!? Can you read the grip? It's a full western grip.

Learn some stroke analysis skills before acting/voicing as some kind of authority. Just found this video of Sock -

 
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oserver said:
Do you like to describe a forehand grip using a backhand grip? Or a full western forehand grip as a "mild eastern bh"?
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Western forehand grip and eastern backhand grip are one same grip in terms of knuckles positions against bevels. Does this help you get @Shroud’s joke now?
 
oserver said:
"mild eastern bh", really!? Can you read the grip? It's a full western grip.

Learn some stroke analysis skills before acting/voicing as some kind of authority. Just found this video of Sock -

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Hey Gary you are on a long streak of mis understanding. Did you see the post I was responding to? Stretchy man was talking about applying the serve to the forehand. He was not serious and was just making fun of your forehand serve mantra. It was a joke. If you look at that jack sock pict you can see its an eastern bh. Sure when hitting a fh he hits the other side of the string from that pict. If you would get out of the “Hit the ball with one side on the fh and the other side of the stringbed “ myth you would see that the western Fh grip is the same as the EBh grip when flipped and conctact is made with the SAME SIDE of the stringbed.

If you hold out a western fh grip at contact and then do some Internal shoulder rotation so the racquet is now on the left side of the body with the same side of the stringbed facing the net you are now hitting an eastern bh grip. Sw fh is a SW bh, etc.

Maybe you should get some advanced analysis skills and stop thinking so linearly about the grips...”
 
Dragy said:
Western forehand grip and eastern backhand grip are one same grip in terms of knuckles positions against bevels. Does this help you get @Shroud’s joke now?
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So you still agree the full western grip is the "mild eastern bh"? What kind of joke is this?

Why describe forehand grip using a backhand grip term? Not funny at all!
 
oserver said:
So you still agree the full western grip is the "mild eastern bh"? What kind of joke is this?

Why describe forehand grip using a backhand grip term? Not funny at all!
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Because he was making a joke about using the serve to improve the fh, and in that context its perfectly normal.

Relax a bit Gary its just tennis. Though nice try at an internet “gotcha”. Almost man.

There was a guy on here who said there were “infinite” grips iirc and maybe he is not exactly wrong.

Here is something you apparently missed during your 4 year trip down the rabbit hole:

 
Shroud said:
Hey Gary you are on a long streak of mis understanding. Did you see the post I was responding to? Stretchy man was talking about applying the serve to the forehand. He was not serious and was just making fun of your forehand serve mantra. It was a joke. If you look at that jack sock pict you can see its an eastern bh. Sure when hitting a fh he hits the other side of the string from that pict. If you would get out of the “Hit the ball with one side on the fh and the other side of the stringbed “ myth you would see that the western Fh grip is the same as the EBh grip when flipped and conctact is made with the SAME SIDE of the stringbed.

If you hold out a western fh grip at contact and then do some Internal shoulder rotation so the racquet is now on the left side of the body with the same side of the stringbed facing the net you are now hitting an eastern bh grip. Sw fh is a SW bh, etc.

Maybe you should get some advanced analysis skills and stop thinking so linearly about the grips...”
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Just admit you were wrong:rolleyes:.

Full western grip is not a mild mild eastern backhand grip. There is no backhand in the discussion so why use a backhand grip to explain forehand things. Beside, eastern backhand bevel is the top bevel (#1) on the handle, but the full western bevel is the bottom bevel (#5). They are not the same. For players using full western forehand grip and single handed eastern backhand grip, even they don't change grip and the racket hitting face, the side edges of racket changes from down to up (#5 to #1), if you really like to go technical!

Spend sometime to get a coaching certificate and do some teaching so you know how to read the tennis forms, or to explain things. This was not the first or second time your readings were off.
 
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oserver said:
Just admit you were wrong:rolleyes:.

Full western grip is not a mild mild eastern backhand grip. There is no backhand in the discussion so why use a backhand grip to explain forehand things. Beside, eastern backhand bevel is the top bevel (#1) on the handle, but the full western bevel is the bottom bevel (#5). They are not the same. For players using full western forehand grip and single handed eastern backhand grip, even they don't change grip and the racket hitting face, the side edges of racket changes from down to up (#5 to #1), if you really like to go technical!

Spend sometime to get a coaching certificate and do some teaching so you know how to read the tennis forms, or to explain things. This was not the first or second time your readings were off.
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First of I am not wrong. Even with your certificate which means less now I have a deeper understanding of the bevels and what the grips are. I hit western forehands and flipped the racquet and know exactly what bh grip equals what forehand grip. Have 20 years of experience doing that with western and sw forehand grips.

When you flip the racquet bevel 1 for the bh now becomes bevel 5 for the fh. Just like if you turn a clock upside down 6pm is in the 12pm spot. And you probably missed it but look at socks grip. Its a pistol grip. On the bh the pistol makes it mild vs the hammer. That Almagro clip explains it the general concept.

Also since you have been on your 4 year quest to perfect the beginners serve you may have missed that some pros use a mild eastern bh grip to serve and its popularity is just behind the continental grip. So if stretchy man makes a joke about applying the serve to the fh (which he did) and shows a pict of Socks fh which is a western grip and equivalent to a mild eastern bh grip- its going with the joke to point out he has a serve grip.

Sorry you were too uptight to see the humor.
 
oserver said:
Just admit you were wrong:rolleyes:.

Full western grip is not a mild mild eastern backhand grip. There is no backhand in the discussion so why use a backhand grip to explain forehand things. Beside, eastern backhand bevel is the top bevel (#1) on the handle, but the full western bevel is the bottom bevel (#5). They are not the same. For players using full western forehand grip and single handed eastern backhand grip, even they don't change grip and the racket hitting face, the side edges of racket changes from down to up (#5 to #1), if you really like to go technical!
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Shroud said:
First of I am not wrong. Even with your certificate which means less now I have a deeper understanding of the bevels and what the grips are. I hit western forehands and flipped the racquet and know exactly what bh grip equals what forehand grip. Have 20 years of experience doing that with western and sw forehand grips.

When you flip the racquet bevel 1 for the bh now becomes bevel 5 for the fh. Just like if you turn a clock upside down 6pm is in the 12pm spot. And you probably missed it but look at socks grip. Its a pistol grip. On the bh the pistol makes it mild vs the hammer. That Almagro clip explains it the general concept.

Also since you have been on your 4 year quest to perfect the beginners serve you may have missed that some pros use a mild eastern bh grip to serve and its popularity is just behind the continental grip. So if stretchy man makes a joke about applying the serve to the fh (which he did) and shows a pict of Socks fh which is a western grip and equivalent to a mild eastern bh grip- its going with the joke to point out he has a serve grip.

Sorry you were too uptight to see the humor.
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Too much humor plus some magician's trick - "western grip and equivalent to a mild eastern bh grip":rolleyes:.
 
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