Tennis dads beware

How horrible. He could have the next Venus and Serena but now they'll never know.

The only thing would be irritating if someone has a basket of balls next to us and the kids are hitting everywhere...
usually the teaching courts are somewhat separated.
 
sureshs said:
A San Francisco dad brought his kids to play tennis at a public park. Two rangers showed up and accused him of illegally coaching without a permit.

@TTMR

sfstandard.com

SF park rangers warn dad he needs permit to teach his kids tennis

A San Francisco dad brought his kids to play tennis at a public park. Two rangers showed up and accused him of illegally coaching without a permit.
sfstandard.com sfstandard.com
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Hehe I follow the financial samurai guy quite a bit, bought his book, etc,…

iirc he is/was a 5.0 player

Seemed like the park rangers were bored
 
I'll bring my ID and my daughter's birth certificate from now on to be on the safe side.

The really galling part is that given the horrors that occur on public streets in SF, public parks must be even worse, yet the rangers are focusing on potential unpermitted tennis lessons instead.
 
JonathanShefftz said:
I'll bring my ID and my daughter's birth certificate from now on to be on the safe side.

The really galling part is that given the horrors that occur on public streets in SF, public parks must be even worse, yet the rangers are focusing on potential unpermitted tennis lessons instead.
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It could be because of two reasons: players complaining about pros hogging courts, and pros complaining about non-pros giving lessons.

Both have happened at my club.
 
sureshs said:
It could be because of two reasons: players complaining about pros hogging courts, and pros complaining about non-pros giving lessons.

Both have happened at my club.
Click to expand...

The courts at my alma mater have prominent signs prohibiting both pickleball and ball hoppers.
I asked the men's head coach about the latter, joking that I was in frequent violation (although we've since graduated to a ball cart), and he said that was really just for unpermitted private instruction.
Oddly enough, all the hoppers are obviously among family members, but I did recently realize that one guy has been giving unpermitted private lessons.
 
JonathanShefftz said:
The courts at my alma mater have prominent signs prohibiting both pickleball and ball hoppers.
I asked the men's head coach about the latter, joking that I was in frequent violation (although we've since graduated to a ball cart), and he said that was really just for unpermitted private instruction.
Oddly enough, all the hoppers are obviously among family members, but I did recently realize that one guy has been giving unpermitted private lessons.
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The older I get, the more tolerant I am of ball hoppers........
 
last time i was at public courts and a guy was clearly giving out lessons... (hogging court for multiple hours)
even worse was they were not even playing tennis, just running around doing various drills on the court.
when asked about it, he brushed it off saying it was his nephew (clearly was not).
giving out lessons for pay is not the problem, it is when someone acts like they own the court and hold it for multiple hours...

or even worse... when there is pickleball being played on the tennis court
 
JonathanShefftz said:
The courts at my alma mater have prominent signs prohibiting both pickleball and ball hoppers.
I asked the men's head coach about the latter, joking that I was in frequent violation (although we've since graduated to a ball cart), and he said that was really just for unpermitted private instruction.
Oddly enough, all the hoppers are obviously among family members, but I did recently realize that one guy has been giving unpermitted private lessons.
Click to expand...
I had a strange experience with illegal coaching. It was towards the end of the pandemic and I was desperate to play, but my club was not yet open. Some public courts were being used, probably against the city rules. I contacted the head pro of a club where I volunteer and asked him if they were offering lessons so that I could just get out and play. He said they were closed but asked me to contact another pro there. That pro gave me an illegal lesson on a public court.

Later I learned that he was fighting cancer and the head pro was helping him make some money on the side for his health expenses. He passed away a year or so later.
 
So once they found out it was his kids they left him alone? So what. I’m glad they do this. I can’t stand when the public courts has someone there for 5 hours spraying balls all over the other courts. They should need a permit or teach at a paid club
 
I have been on both sides, working with my son and other kids (not paid) and having to ask a coaching that is being paid to leave a court so players can use it (met with, "I've been doing this for blah blah years..." etc).
 
I'm typically of no harm no foul.
So if a pro is giving a lesson on a public court but following the rules of court usage I could care less. Unfortunately, most pro's who are "borrowing" public courts don't follow the rules of the court. Meaning giving them up at the alotted time (typically on the hour or after an hour of play). Hence why a permit system is created.

One of the best things that happened during the pandemic for us was one township created a free online permit system. It was a way to guarantee court time to prevent arguments about court usage. It was great to have the email showing your time so people would give up the court on the hour instead of saying they just go there etc. Unfortunately, after the pandemic they got rid of the system.

I think so many public parks in the US could benefit from such a permit system even one with low costs. I'd gladly pay $5-10 if I"m guaranteed a court vs. driving from court to court looking for space when busy.
 
This article belongs in the onion but it seems to be true.

“He could have been fined $192, one of the rangers told him.

Though the rule is intended to ban commercial instruction, the Recreation and Parks website(opens in new tab) uses broad language, saying the city “prohibits tennis instruction without a permit.””

All this talk in the thread of “illegal tennis lessons” sounds crazy to me. If the issue is hogging the courts then have sign ups and don’t allow people to play for longer then a set period of time.
 
There is also a little bit of a lesson proprierty issue.
If someone is using a public court to make money that's really not the intention of public recreation areas in most communities. Hence a permit for those that got approved by the municipality to teach.
Also some park districts want only their pros using courts for revenue generation and don't want to be undercut by pros who really didn't contribute to the cost of the court.

It's like I start selling clothes out of the back of my van in a mall parking lot or selling goods in the common area of a mall. The mall pays for the upkeep of the parking lot, security of the parking lot etc. and then I'm mooching by selling.

So I get why park districts don't want professional pros giving lesson on their courts without permit/permission, but it starts to become a grey line with family members doing so. A 3.0 Dad taking his 5 year old daughter out for a match is really family time/rec time. But a previous D1 mother training her son for hours on the court could be construed as professional coaching.
 
Robert F said:
There is also a little bit of a lesson proprierty issue.
If someone is using a public court to make money that's really not the intention of public recreation areas in most communities. Hence a permit for those that got approved by the municipality to teach.
Also some park districts want only their pros using courts for revenue generation and don't want to be undercut by pros who really didn't contribute to the cost of the court.

It's like I start selling clothes out of the back of my van in a mall parking lot or selling goods in the common area of a mall. The mall pays for the upkeep of the parking lot, security of the parking lot etc. and then I'm mooching by selling.

So I get why park districts don't want professional pros giving lesson on their courts without permit/permission, but it starts to become a grey line with family members doing so. A 3.0 Dad taking his 5 year old daughter out for a match is really family time/rec time. But a previous D1 mother training her son for hours on the court could be construed as professional coaching.
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I suppose some park districts might have some pros but the notion that the government should be competing with private businesses is troubling to say the least.

I don't think your comparison with people trespassing on private property fits here. I think public property is for everyone in the public or at least all tax payers. I think free markets are good and so I don't see anything wrong with someone providing and getting a paid service. In fact I think it is to be promoted.

It may be we have different default views. In a free country people should be able to do something unless there is a good reason to prevent it. Authoritarian minded people think the opposite. You shouldn't think you can do something unless you are specifically told you can. Your notion that it is a "gray line" when family is teaching other family members strikes me as very authoritarian. Imo its odd to say people cant get paid tennis lessons from non-family members. Why put up barriers to people trying to make an honest living?

Again if the park is crowded then yes I agree there should be time limits for public use. But if there are empty courts the park rangers are over staffed if they don't have anything better to do beside harass people.
 
Moon Shooter said:
I suppose some park districts might have some pros but the notion that the government should be competing with private businesses is troubling to say the least.

I don't think your comparison with people trespassing on private property fits here. I think public property is for everyone in the public or at least all tax payers. I think free markets are good and so I don't see anything wrong with someone providing and getting a paid service. In fact I think it is to be promoted.

It may be we have different default views. In a free country people should be able to do something unless there is a good reason to prevent it. Authoritarian minded people think the opposite. You shouldn't think you can do something unless you are specifically told you can. Your notion that it is a "gray line" when family is teaching other family members strikes me as very authoritarian. Imo its odd to say people cant get paid tennis lessons from non-family members. Why put up barriers to people trying to make an honest living?

Again if the park is crowded then yes I agree there should be time limits for public use. But if there are empty courts the park rangers are over staffed if they don't have anything better to do beside harass people.
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Totally think anyone can teach tennis and should be allowed to do so, but should they be subsidized by the government? Why should the government pay for the tennis pro's place of business? The governement doesn't pay for my office. Doesn't pay for my rent to the office, the air conditioning or other bills. So why should tennis pros get free infrastructure? To me the intention of public use is for the public to use it not profit from it.

Any pro is more than welcome to build his or her own tennis club or court and then make as much money as they want. Or lease space from a private court or if a municipality has a system where pros can pay for a permit go for it.
I'm fairly OK with a pro giving a lesson on a public court as long as they follow the rules of the court and unfortunately, my experience has not been that. Many blocking out courts all day preventing true public use--since courts in our area are to change after the hour.
 
Moon Shooter said:
I suppose some park districts might have some pros but the notion that the government should be competing with private businesses is troubling to say the least.

I don't think your comparison with people trespassing on private property fits here. I think public property is for everyone in the public or at least all tax payers. I think free markets are good and so I don't see anything wrong with someone providing and getting a paid service. In fact I think it is to be promoted.

It may be we have different default views. In a free country people should be able to do something unless there is a good reason to prevent it. Authoritarian minded people think the opposite. You shouldn't think you can do something unless you are specifically told you can. Your notion that it is a "gray line" when family is teaching other family members strikes me as very authoritarian. Imo its odd to say people cant get paid tennis lessons from non-family members. Why put up barriers to people trying to make an honest living?

Again if the park is crowded then yes I agree there should be time limits for public use. But if there are empty courts the park rangers are over staffed if they don't have anything better to do beside harass people.
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Agree wholeheartedly. Recently, I put up a booth on my street and made it into a toll road. Of course, big authoritarian government comes in and tells me that I cannot do this quoting some obtuse 'law' or 'statute.' Imo its odd to say that people can't profit from others driving on the roads in their municipality. I agree that public property is for everyone in the public, or at least all tax payers! As you said, why do these jackbooted government thugs always have to put up barriers to people trying to make an honest living?
 
I know several pros who have concessions with their city Parks and Rec departments to conduct instructional programs at public facilities. They pay a monthly fee and/or a percentage of their income to the Parks and Rec for the privilege. There's a financial issue, it's most of the time not just 'getting a permit'. 'Pros', and I use the term loosely because most are not REAL pros, coming on to those courts giving instruction is a real problem. The concessionaire may charge a certain fee, and some shmo will come and offer lessons at a lower fee 'if you pay me cash'. I know someone who has a concession for an instruction program at a 15-court public facility. Their programs, per their contract with the Parks and Rec, start at 8am. When they arrive there are up to 5 people already there giving lessons that started at 7am. There's really not much they can do about it but clearly it impinges on their program. Most public courts have posted rules regarding no instruction except by permitted pros or limit the number of balls that can be used, usually 6, and they are there for good reason. There's nothing wrong, and I doubt anyone would have an issue with a dad working with his kids, but scabs who take up public courts to teach when they shouldn't are just scum, and their clients are no better.
 
soft_manatee said:
Agree wholeheartedly. Recently, I put up a booth on my street and made it into a toll road. Of course, big authoritarian government comes in and tells me that I cannot do this quoting some obtuse 'law' or 'statute.' Imo its odd to say that people can't profit from others driving on the roads in their municipality. I agree that public property is for everyone in the public, or at least all tax payers! As you said, why do these jackbooted government thugs always have to put up barriers to people trying to make an honest living?
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I bought a bunch a scrap cars and parked them all the way up and down the street. This was a back lane neighbourhood so no driveways. I put up a sign on my property "Parking Here: $5" and let people park on my lawn. I think it was more visitors/guests than residents.

Neighbours called by-law to complain. There was no specific by-law against what I did, bc street parking is public and no one "owns" it and anyone (me) can park there. But by-law guy said I didn't have permit to charge for parking on my property. Rather than fight it I cut him in 35% of the profits. Did this for a year and a half then sold house and scrap cars.
 
Robert F said:
I'm typically of no harm no foul.
So if a pro is giving a lesson on a public court but following the rules of court usage I could care less. Unfortunately, most pro's who are "borrowing" public courts don't follow the rules of the court. Meaning giving them up at the alotted time (typically on the hour or after an hour of play). Hence why a permit system is created.

One of the best things that happened during the pandemic for us was one township created a free online permit system. It was a way to guarantee court time to prevent arguments about court usage. It was great to have the email showing your time so people would give up the court on the hour instead of saying they just go there etc. Unfortunately, after the pandemic they got rid of the system.

I think so many public parks in the US could benefit from such a permit system even one with low costs. I'd gladly pay $5-10 if I"m guaranteed a court vs. driving from court to court looking for space when busy.
Click to expand...
Given that in the US, recreation centers cannot even keep their monthly schedule updated on the website, I don't think they will implement an online booking system any time soon.

And a fee will be protested by many too. They will argue that free means free and no one should be allowed to bypass the queue by paying money.
 
Moon Shooter said:
This article belongs in the onion but it seems to be true.

“He could have been fined $192, one of the rangers told him.

Though the rule is intended to ban commercial instruction, the Recreation and Parks website(opens in new tab) uses broad language, saying the city “prohibits tennis instruction without a permit.””

All this talk in the thread of “illegal tennis lessons” sounds crazy to me. If the issue is hogging the courts then have sign ups and don’t allow people to play for longer then a set period of time.
Click to expand...
Given that city governments are backlogged on providing essential facilities, monitoring sign-ups is just not going to happen. Even upscale developments with gated private courts are not able to do this. I know, because I have sneaked into them and played.
 
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Moon Shooter said:
I think free markets are good and so I don't see anything wrong with someone providing and getting a paid service.
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Certainly not. Otherwise beaches will become impossible to visit as vendors will setup shop everywhere.

Each one will think he is a small guy trying to earn a living.

There is a case moving through the courts here about a couple of people who give "Yoga on the beach" lessons every morning.

There is also the issue of liability. What happens when a student gets injured? And there are worse situations with kids I don't want to go into here.

Bottomline is that whenever money is exchanged, it is a commercial transaction and laws apply.
 
sureshs said:
Given that in the US, recreation centers cannot even keep their monthly schedule updated on the website, I don't think they will implement an online booking system any time soon.

And a fee will be protested by many too. They will argue that free means free and no one should be allowed to bypass the queue by paying money.
Click to expand...
Plenty of clubs have online booking systems.
When the one park distritct by us did it during the pandemic rarely did we have an issue. Basically a reservation trumped unscheduled play. People got it. And sure at first it might cause some bumps, but if the system is good it makes life much easier after the initial start phase and 6 months.
 
Robert F said:
Plenty of clubs have online booking systems.
When the one park distritct by us did it during the pandemic rarely did we have an issue. Basically a reservation trumped unscheduled play. People got it. And sure at first it might cause some bumps, but if the system is good it makes life much easier after the initial start phase and 6 months.
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Clubs, yes. Not sure about parks and rec. Maybe your experience is better.
 
For public courts/parks, unless there's a good divider, limit number of tennisballs to 4. It's irritating also when someone's practicing their serve next to you w/ a basket and their balls are going all over. One local park has only one tennis court and I'm fine w/ someone coaching with a hopper of balls. Of course if someone's waiting they should release the court after an hour. One pro would do multiple lessons, but it was usually from 11-3 when no one was using it.
 
Park rangers have nothing better to do? :rolleyes: I mean if the guy was hogging a court or any manner of other dumb schitt teaching pros do at parks, sure fine him. Some guy wants to feed balls to his kids? Leave him alone.
 
am1899 said:
Park rangers have nothing better to do? :rolleyes: I mean if the guy was hogging a court or any manner of other dumb schitt teaching pros do at parks, sure fine him. Some guy wants to feed balls to his kids? Leave him alone.
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Certainly a possibility the Rangers where being jerks and just demonstrating their authority. But often in these situaions either someone made a complaint or this court has been having problems with the issue and probably they tagged the wrong people.

After reading the article again, the Rangers did relent after learning it was their Dad.
 
Universal surveillance with facial recognition and AI to determine parental connections along with automatic notification of violations to Central Authority is the solution.
 
Robert F said:
Certainly a possibility the Rangers where being jerks and just demonstrating their authority. But often in these situaions either someone made a complaint or this court has been having problems with the issue and probably they tagged the wrong people.

After reading the article again, the Rangers did relent after learning it was their Dad.
Click to expand...

They did relent yes, but apparently not before they mentioned he could have been fined $192. Lol.
 
Robert F said:
Totally think anyone can teach tennis and should be allowed to do so, but should they be subsidized by the government? Why should the government pay for the tennis pro's place of business?
Click to expand...

The government is providing tennis courts that people will use to play and learn tennis. If 2 free people want to pay for a lesson what should the government care? Is it better if people can't get lessons rom those who know what they are doing? Or is it better if the student that wants to learn tennis must not only pay for the lesson but also must pay for a private court? Why not use the courts that are built for the public?



Robert F said:
The governement doesn't pay for my office. Doesn't pay for my rent to the office, the air conditioning or other bills. So why should tennis pros get free infrastructure? To me the intention of public use is for the public to use it not profit from it.
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If you meet a client and talked business at a public park should park rangers come with night sticks and fine you? What if, God forbid, you meet a client at a room in a public library?

I do agree that the state should be careful not to step on the toes of private companies that provide tennis courts. But if they make the decision to have a park then people should be able to use it. Whether they make a profit should not be something we frown on.

Robert F said:
Any pro is more than welcome to build his or her own tennis club or court and then make as much money as they want. Or lease space from a private court or if a municipality has a system where pros can pay for a permit go for it.
I'm fairly OK with a pro giving a lesson on a public court as long as they follow the rules of the court and unfortunately, my experience has not been that. Many blocking out courts all day preventing true public use--since courts in our area are to change after the hour.
Click to expand...

You and others keep talking about situations where people excessively hog public space when doing so ruins the use of others. I am 100% in agreement on that. People should not be able to live in a public park, you shouldn't hog court or spaces on beaches to the detriment of others. But a simple sign up sheet is not exactly high tech and can easily deal with that issue. It seems the cheaper option then roaming rangers with clubs.

Plus if there are other courts available next to his court (assuming they are also in good condition) then it is good for people to use the courts - even if it is for private pay instruction. Your community will be better off if they are paying for 2 of 3 courts to sit there empty instead of 3 of 3 courts sitting there empty,
 
Moon Shooter said:
What if, God forbid, you meet a client at a room in a public library?
Click to expand...
Uh oh, I did exactly that once! Fortunately I've been evading arrest for that ever since then.

Back to the larger issues, the irony of all this is that almost all the objections to commercial instruction focus on issues that aren't unique to private instruction, and hence should be addressed in a more universal manner -- mainly some sort of reservation system or max-time period on courts that are often busy.
(Which reminds me, today, late afternoon into early evening, my partner and I played for almost two hours ... and amazingly enough, we were the only two players out of 23 courts, 8 red clay, 15 hard.)

Otherwise, as with other commercial use of public lands, some sort of permit system and fee structure should be implemented.
(I've gone through exactly that for organizing ski mountaineering races on land that is a combination of state and municipal.)
Plus the usual requirement for COI.
 
Moon Shooter said:
The government is providing tennis courts that people will use to play and learn tennis. If 2 free people want to pay for a lesson what should the government care? Is it better if people can't get lessons rom those who know what they are doing? Or is it better if the student that wants to learn tennis must not only pay for the lesson but also must pay for a private court? Why not use the courts that are built for the public?





If you meet a client and talked business at a public park should park rangers come with night sticks and fine you? What if, God forbid, you meet a client at a room in a public library?

I do agree that the state should be careful not to step on the toes of private companies that provide tennis courts. But if they make the decision to have a park then people should be able to use it. Whether they make a profit should not be something we frown on.



You and others keep talking about situations where people excessively hog public space when doing so ruins the use of others. I am 100% in agreement on that. People should not be able to live in a public park, you shouldn't hog court or spaces on beaches to the detriment of others. But a simple sign up sheet is not exactly high tech and can easily deal with that issue. It seems the cheaper option then roaming rangers with clubs.

Plus if there are other courts available next to his court (assuming they are also in good condition) then it is good for people to use the courts - even if it is for private pay instruction. Your community will be better off if they are paying for 2 of 3 courts to sit there empty instead of 3 of 3 courts sitting there empty,
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I'll just emphasize as you bring up the primary issue for me is monopolizing the court.
My other arguments I'm more neutral on, but understand why park districts have some domain over their use.
Overall I'm more of a no-harm no foul guy. So if I show up and a pro giving lessons leaves at the start of the hour, I'm fine with it.


Just curious, would you be OK with a pickle ball instructor using the court to give pickelball lessons?
 
Typti racquets are 22" long.

Junior racquets are 19, 21, 23 and 25 inches long.

22 inches is a magical length calibrated for play with the typti balls and pickleball-sized court and also to maximize profits since there aren't any 22 inch jr racquets.
Curtennis said:
The literal reason was so they could sell super expensive frames when a jr frame from a box store would work totally fine
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