Tennis Elbow and Technique

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
...............Less is more...............
yep, man..............even better 'talk less n do more', man:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D............

kinda niked/naked truth of doers 'just do it'..............actually i prefer 'just enjoy it' as if no enjoyment, so wat even if u got 30 $lams:?))) but hard to believe w/o enjoyment only full of injury then got 3 $lams:?))):-D:-D:-D..........

even if u own the whole world so wat but u'r not there, ie u'r excluded from the world u own...............is dat the feeling of depression:?))) just bit observation from an outsider n might b wrong, man8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B..............
 
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HouTex

Rookie
yep, man..............even better 'talk less n do more', man:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D............

kinda niked/naked truth of doers 'just do it'..............actually i prefer 'just enjoy it' as if no enjoyment, so wat even if u got 30 $lams:?))) but hard to believe w/o enjoyment only full of injury then got 3 $lams:?))):-D:-D:-D..........

even if u own the whole world so wat but u'r not there, ie u'r excluded from the world u own...............is dat the feeling of depression:?))) just bit observation from an outsider n might b wrong, man8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B..............
Well, I tried.
 

chic

Professional
If you liked the PB10 back when you originally ordered it, volkl just released a rerun of that line. You can get brand new pb10s on tw and they're part of the 31% off deal for Halloween.

Volkl is known for dampening tech, idk if the rest of the market has caught up, so maybe there's something there as to why similar racquets still hurt, I always assumed that was mostly just advertising mumbo jumbo?
 

burzum

New User
Chic, thanks, but when I played older PB10 I felt pain, after 30-40 minutes. I accepted it, because I had no idea that playing with no pain may be ever possible. With Organix, it's ok, that's why I decided to keep it. It's far from PB10 regarding control. I am checking whether they put anything regarding their vibration protection from OGX into new (old) PB10.
I think it's may be a trade off - putting tons of vibration dampening into frame must affect control.
 
Hi,
no idea, I just asked service guy to put something good in. It's silver, quite silk and normal width. It gives no spin, I have to work hard to get my usual aggresive top spin. Not very happy with it.
What should I use ? I prefer something that can help with spin, Organix 10 is not perfect here.
As currently only one 320 left in my bag, I would like to move to V-Sense 10 or C10 Pro. Do You think both are made with the same vibration absorbing technology ? Is there any really difference between them ?
As far as I can see Volkl is not that popular here.

best regards,

Piotr
v-sense 325 gram actually caused me TENNIS ELBOW!
 

burzum

New User
v-sense 325 gram actually caused me TENNIS ELBOW!
Maybe it's to heavy for You? For my type of TE, it's was ok. I've just noticed that it's extremely string sensitive. Last thursday I broke string (23kg tension) and change to another Organix, 24kg tension, it's was like playing totally different racquet. Much better, no less power and a much more control. It's off this topic, I just wanted to share full info regarding this racquet, I am trying to decide what to buy now and still do not know.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
I can’t say if the racquet matters in preventing TE but as I was in the last months of my 20 month recovery from a horrible case of TE the racquet clearly mattered. Just a few hits with my old Wilson prostaff 6.1 and my elbow would start to hurt. I could feel the vibration going up my forearm with each hit. I could then immediately hit with either the Volkl V1 classic or the Prince EXO3 and feel no vibration at all. I keep both racquets but I mainly play with the Prince. I’m about 3 years post-recovery and while I’m not playing as much I feel no discomfort at all while playing. Oh, and I haven’t changed my strokes. And pre and post injury I have always played with multi strings (Wilson NXT).
And let´s not Forget that the V1 Classic as a stiffness of 69... The material and the Volkl handle sistem , really makes some magic… I´ve played 2 years with the Volkl Super G 8 315g with stiffness of 73...Still is the most arm friendly racket i´ve played untill today...So it proves that stiffness rating by itself doesn´t mean a lot...
 

GeoffHYL

Professional
v-sense 325 gram actually caused me TENNIS ELBOW!
I have a number of Volkl racquets, a couple of V-Sense 10 Tour, a couple of V-Sense 10 325, an older C10 Pro, and an even older C7 Pro Precise. The one that gave me TE was the older C7 Pro Precise, but it was mostly the poly strings it was strung with that were a major factor in the TE. I have played poly in my 10 Tour and 10 325, neither of which hurt my elbow, even during my TE recovery period. The type of poly and tension must have something to do with it.

Restrung the C7 Pro Precise with a multi, it doesn't bother my arm anymore.
 
I have a number of Volkl racquets, a couple of V-Sense 10 Tour, a couple of V-Sense 10 325, an older C10 Pro, and an even older C7 Pro Precise. The one that gave me TE was the older C7 Pro Precise, but it was mostly the poly strings it was strung with that were a major factor in the TE. I have played poly in my 10 Tour and 10 325, neither of which hurt my elbow, even during my TE recovery period. The type of poly and tension must have something to do with it.

Restrung the C7 Pro Precise with a multi, it doesn't bother my arm anymore.
I used KLIP natural gut with VELOCITY - gut with multiflament should be VERY SAFE... nevertheless.....Since then I lowerd the tension to 52/50 and with full ISOSPEED PROFESSIONAL it's quite o.k., unless I play day after day, but no where near PRINCE O3 TOUR MP - historic racquet.... Even when it doesn't give me TE, still feel STIFF which I like from time to time, since the feel is good, and power and control, but a LOT of VIBRATION
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For all the people that insist that tennis elbow only comes from poor technique , please go help Lucas Pouille and Kei Nishikori how to hit a ball , because they will be out the rest of the season because of elbow injury. I know you have already helped Tsonga, Djokovic , and many others to hit a ball so they could come back to tennis, after their elbow injuries. And i´m glad that you told them how to it a single handed backhand properly , cause their injury might have come from that stroke too…
Let´s settle this for once and for all. tennis elbow it´s an overuse injury. Some people get it sooner than others. When you start feeling something wrong with your arm just take it easy and give it some rest to recover. don´t do what i did and play untill it´s too damaged...
it´s OVERUSE and not technique inperfection or single handed backhands . just make sure you don´t hit the ball with your frame, but with the stringbed...
Happy tennis to everyone...
The main thing about Tennis Elbow is that it is a tendon injury. New injury, when you first get it stop stressing it immediately and let it heal. See a well qualified Dr. If you don't then you may soon have defective healing known as Tendinosis. 2-3 weeks have been published in post #1 of the thread below.

Here are some publications on tendon injuries gathered in a thread. See post #1 on Tendinitis (with inflammation) and post #15 on Tendinosis (with defective healing)

See the comment about animal studies in the publication of post #1.

An injury can also be on going especially if you stress it in the same way that the original injury was caused as in tennis. Later, all manner of injuries may be present at the same time including tendinitis (with inflammation) and tendinnosis (with defective healing) and new tissue injuries.

As far as technique, I found two views. D. Knudson published on the wrist angle being flexed or extended and said the extended wrist was better. He also said that you see pros using the wrist in an extended wrost angle mostly in pro one hand backhands. I found that to be true looking at videos. Look at high speed videos of one hand backhands and see if the wrist tends to be flexed or extended. Flexed tends to lengthen the tendons that are injured in tennis elbow. Those publications were from the 1990s and also in his book on biomechanics and tennis.

However, on the other hand, Knudson had favorable comments about a publication around 2012 or so that said off center hits were an important factor for the one hand backhand. Search the D. Knudson publication with comments. Those are the two best publications I've seen on the cause of Tennis Elbow.

Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin have outstanding one hand backhands and played for many years. (I believe that Justine Henin retired because of an elbow injury but that injury was caused by a fall.)

The term overuse - how does that fit in to having a new injury and not allowing it to heal properly? How can you tell the difference between an 'overuse injury' and failure to allow healing by continuing to stress a newly healing tendon. About the only way to tell is to find scientific research on the injuries.

I posted on these issues. See also if you can find Charliefedererer posts that show how long it takes a new tendon injury to heal. It's month;s to a year, I believe but find solid information, don't play until you know by seeing a Dr.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Same with me. Organix is the first racquet I can play without pain. I can feel pain even when I play with no vibrastop, sometimes I'm getting mad thinking it's not possible to feel such things. When I was pro player they cared somehow about my elbow, as far as I remember with "diadynamics" mostly, but with no luck. You know, 80's-90's in Poland were... specific.

I will go for C10 Pro...
I'm a happy Volkl nerd - took up with the C10 several years ago and also added the Organix 10 325g (O10) as well as the V-Sense 10 325g (VS10) to my stash. My collection of C10's ranges from one of the earliest with the "fishscale" paint job through a couple of subsequent generations and the two newest ones that I often play with are only a few years old - black with yellow around the top of the hoop.

The C10 was my switch from the Wilson ProStaff 6.1 Classic. I needed more control with my strokes and found that right away with the C10, which gave me a layout having similar weight and balance as the 6.1 Classics, but significantly more flex. These still give me plenty of power, but they are also supremely comfortable for me strung with synthetic gut. No problem playing several hours a day with these frames for several days at a time.

I inherited a pair of O10 325g's from a pal - fellow teaching pro - and these were not very good for me in their stock form. Compared with my C10's, the stock O10's were too light, unstable, and under-powered for my taste. Before getting rid of these racquets, I decided to try some experiments with lead tape and the improvements these gave me with these frames were substantial. The feel absolutely came alive, the stability was much better at the baseline and at the net, and the control was probably at least as good as with any racquet I had ever used.

I recently got a pair of VS 10's on sale at TW hoping that these could eventually replace my aging O10's if I did a similar lead tuning job with these newer versions. That did NOT work. I don't know what's different about these newer VS 10's, but they're not so similar to the O10's in terms of feel and performance. The feel is more "tinny" and that didn't improve for me when I added a similar dose of lead tape to both the hoop and the handle as I did with my O10's. I've kept my VS 10's in stock form and they're working okay for teaching or coaching when I don't need to slug especially hard. I'm also stringing the VS 10's with syn. gut at around 56 lbs.

While I can't quite recommend the VS 10 325g to replace your O10, I can say that the C10 is a VERY arm-friendly racquet. It is heavier than the stock O10, but my tuned O10's weigh about 12.7 oz. and balance at 10-11 pts. head-light (HL). Because I prefer a little extra HL balance in my heavier frames, I've also added some lead tape to the handles of my newest C10's - much more manageable for me compared with their stock specs.

Caution!! DO NOT depend on the flex or arm-friendliness of any racquet to protect your arm if you also string it with a poly. In my years of teaching and coaching high school teams (and stringing racquets), I've seen many higher level players using arm-friendly racquets who ran into tennis elbow, golfer's elbow, or other arm issues after stringing those frames with poly.

I also annihilated my arm two years ago when I sampled a full bed of "softer" poly at lower tension (43-44 lbs.) in one of my "supremely comfortable" C10's. I only used that layout for two sessions of 15-20 minutes each and came down with acute pain in three different areas of my elbow and forearm. This was the real-deal tennis elbow where I couldn't hold a glass of water for a week or two. If you have concerns about arm health, stay away from the polys in any racquet.

You'll probably notice that the C10 is heavier than the stock O10, but it will at least give you a familiar grip shape - perhaps not quite identical, but it should have that similar "blocky" Volkl profile. With a little weight added to the handle for a comfortable degree of HL balance, you might be extremely comfortable with this frame. A couple other Volkls that could be worth a look are their V1 Pro as well as the V-Sense 10 Tour.

Rumor has it that the newest generation of the C10 is slightly more stiff than those of recent years, but I don't have any firsthand knowledge to share on that at this point.

One other frame that could be worth a look is the ProKennex Ki Q+ Tour Pro 325. I haven't sampled this racquet yet, but it looks like you could get something with this frame that's close to your O10 in its stock form. Bonus points for ProKennex putting out lots of different models that are better than average in the arm-friendly department.
 

maleyoyo

Professional
For all the people that insist that tennis elbow only comes from poor technique , please go help Lucas Pouille and Kei Nishikori how to hit a ball , because they will be out the rest of the season because of elbow injury. I know you have already helped Tsonga, Djokovic , and many others to hit a ball so they could come back to tennis, after their elbow injuries. And i´m glad that you told them how to it a single handed backhand properly , cause their injury might have come from that stroke too…
Let´s settle this for once and for all. tennis elbow it´s an overuse injury. Some people get it sooner than others. When you start feeling something wrong with your arm just take it easy and give it some rest to recover. don´t do what i did and play untill it´s too damaged...
it´s OVERUSE and not technique inperfection or single handed backhands . just make sure you don´t hit the ball with your frame, but with the stringbed...
Happy tennis to everyone...
GBplayer , you really have to be the greatest tennis coach in the world. Please let all of us know how to hit the ball. you must have an allien technique...
Don't ask him.
Ask the WTA and your local female club players.
They know something we don't
As for your overuse argument, I had tennis and golfer elbows. Fix my techniques and play more than ever before yet elbow injuries never come back.
 
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undecided

Semi-Pro
Don't ask him.
Ask the WTA and your local female club players.
They know something we don't
As for your overuse argument, I had tennis and golfer elbows. Fix my techniques and play more than ever before yet elbow injuries never come back.
I don't know anymore. I had 3 bouts of TE/GE over 30 years. Each time it was from overplaying. Like 14+ hrs per week. Sometimes twice a day. All else being equal. Same strings, same racquets, same technique. Just increasing the hours eventually did it.
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
I don't know anymore. I had 3 bouts of TE/GE over 30 years. Each time it was from overplaying. Like 14+ hrs per week. Sometimes twice a day. All else being equal. Same strings, same racquets, same technique. Just increasing the hours eventually did it.
every now n then heard of ppl saying abt how many yrs/hrs playing tennis but it doesn't mean much, man. like jet pilots only count flying hrs by 00s or 000s n the yrs in the air force really meanings nothing:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D.................

it's all abt how many strokes u did w/in certain hrs ie average strokes/hr................no way to quantify dat if playing matches/games. hit against wall or ball machine might give u some idea. also just wonder if a walker/jogger pace counter can be attached to the rkt measuring the workload. i worked it out by stroke/min then x50 as a unit of strokes/hr..........n i'll try to install a counter soon to c if accurate enough8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B....................
 

maleyoyo

Professional
I don't know anymore. I had 3 bouts of TE/GE over 30 years. Each time it was from overplaying. Like 14+ hrs per week. Sometimes twice a day. All else being equal. Same strings, same racquets, same technique. Just increasing the hours eventually did it.
14 hours a week is a lot for us rec players but that is the norm for all juniors in the academy year round. I don't see anyone wearing armbands. Male recreational tennis players are most prone to elbow injuries and we've got to wonder why.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
People,


How long did it take your TE or arm pain to heal?

It will be two weeks for me this Sunday and right now I'm feeling OK if I don't do lift anything heavy. The other day I couldn't even tilt a pan to pour food.

Stupid me since getting my TE I still came out to play, hit a couple times. This probably delays the healing process.
 

andreh

Professional
People,


How long did it take your TE or arm pain to heal?

It will be two weeks for me this Sunday and right now I'm feeling OK if I don't do lift anything heavy. The other day I couldn't even tilt a pan to pour food.

Stupid me since getting my TE I still came out to play, hit a couple times. This probably delays the healing process.
Most cases of tennis elbow heal in 6-12 months. Sounds to me like you're at the point where you need stop immediately and rest. Forget about tennis for a while and then rehab exercises.

There are plenty of threads on TE and rehabilitation here. Do some research. You might also want to consult a physician if you're at the point where doing everyday things hurt.
 

undecided

Semi-Pro
People,


How long did it take your TE or arm pain to heal?

It will be two weeks for me this Sunday and right now I'm feeling OK if I don't do lift anything heavy. The other day I couldn't even tilt a pan to pour food.

Stupid me since getting my TE I still came out to play, hit a couple times. This probably delays the healing process.
If you caught it early and you truly let it rest, a month to 6 weeks is enough. If you kept playing while it hurt, healing may take up to 6 months.
 

undecided

Semi-Pro
14 hours a week is a lot for us rec players but that is the norm for all juniors in the academy year round. I don't see anyone wearing armbands. Male recreational tennis players are most prone to elbow injuries and we've got to wonder why.
I don't know, I saw one of the local teaching pros all wrapped up recently. He got tennis elbow. I was talking to the local high shool tennis coach and he got tennis elbow last year as well. You can't compare juniors with older adults especially past the age of 30.
 

HouTex

Rookie
If you really screw up and keep playing like I did, it could be 20 months, or even longer. There are several old threads about the healing process.

The problem is that you will not know until its too late. I’ve heard players say do not play for 30 days after all (and I mean all) pain is gone. And if it starts hurting when you start playing again, stop immediately. I was 52 or so when I got TE so maybe age was a factor in the healing time.
 

maleyoyo

Professional
People,


How long did it take your TE or arm pain to heal?

It will be two weeks for me this Sunday and right now I'm feeling OK if I don't do lift anything heavy. The other day I couldn't even tilt a pan to pour food.

Stupid me since getting my TE I still came out to play, hit a couple times. This probably delays the healing process.
With your condition right now, I would not touch a racket for at least 6 months.
If you think that's painful, re-injuring it the price will be a year.
Believe me no armband or wrapping will help as they just prolong your agony.[/QUOTE]
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
I don't know, I saw one of the local teaching pros all wrapped up recently. He got tennis elbow. I was talking to the local high shool tennis coach and he got tennis elbow last year as well. You can't compare juniors with older adults especially past the age of 30.
omfg...........wat'r dey teaching:?))) how to catch te/ge:?))) no wonder 50% chance got te/ge when ppl play tennis:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.........................
 

maleyoyo

Professional
I don't know, I saw one of the local teaching pros all wrapped up recently. He got tennis elbow. I was talking to the local high shool tennis coach and he got tennis elbow last year as well. You can't compare juniors with older adults especially past the age of 30.
Female players and juniors hardly get elbow injuries even though they play the same amount of time and frequency as the men, so the overuse theory does not apply to them. How come?
My theory is that us dudes hit the little fuzzy yellow ball as if it is a ton of brick. We hold the racket with a death grip, squeezing it hard every time we hit, and trying to hit a home run.
Every time we do that the arm muscles get tightened and stress out the tendons connecting to the elbow. The index and middle fingers are connected to the arm muscle that causes TE while the ring finger and pinky are connected to the muscle/tendon that causes GE. Having better technique will help resolving the issues because we use the bigger muscles instead. With better technique you will feel that you hit better balls with a relaxed grip and wrist, even with the serve.
Another thing is when guys do their rehabs, they try to make the arm stronger, but stronger, tight muscles will stress out the tendons even more. The combination of relaxed arm muscles and pliable tendons is your best defence against TE and GE.
Of course overuse is also a factor, so listening to your elbow is crucial. But us dudes also suck at listening too.
Hence the dilemma!
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@HouTex @undecided @dak95_00 @user92626
For all the people that insist that tennis elbow only comes from poor technique , please go help Lucas Pouille and Kei Nishikori how to hit a ball , because they will be out the rest of the season because of elbow injury. I know you have already helped Tsonga, Djokovic , and many others to hit a ball so they could come back to tennis, after their elbow injuries. And i´m glad that you told them how to it a single handed backhand properly , cause their injury might have come from that stroke too…
Let´s settle this for once and for all. tennis elbow it´s an overuse injury. Some people get it sooner than others. When you start feeling something wrong with your arm just take it easy and give it some rest to recover. don´t do what i did and play untill it´s too damaged...
it´s OVERUSE and not technique inperfection or single handed backhands . just make sure you don´t hit the ball with your frame, but with the stringbed...
Happy tennis to everyone...
Nishikori and Pouille may very well have suffered overuse injuries of the elbow but, from what I have read, neither one of them are out due to tennis elbow (lateral epicondylitis). Kei has bone spurs on his right elbow. For Lucas, the issue is bone edema.

https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/27897012/kei-nishikori-season-ending-elbow-surgery

https://www.**************.org/tenn...eaks-about-lucas-pouille-s-injury-and-season/

EDIT: Second link is from Tennis World USA (no spaces in the URL)
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Jesus, everything i´ve said just doesn´t give you a clue...
In one week two of the best technicians in the world of tennis announced that they will be off for the rest of the season because of elbow injury , and you insist in the poor technique thing...jesus Christ...some people just wan´t to believe in their own ****...
Give the name of one guy that has poor technique, but only plays tennis two times a week and got tennis elbow. And that guy, can´t be one with a job where he can stress is elbow too...He has to have it just from playing two times a week...Give me one...
GBplayer , you really have to be the greatest tennis coach in the world. Please let all of us know how to hit the ball. you must have an allien technique...
You may have misinterpreted what @GBplayer was saying.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
For me the grip makes the biggest difference. If its too small you squeeze and the impact goes to that location, if you dont wash hands and use old grip, effect is similar.

For 1h'rs always be ready to slice, trying to come over the ball with a late contact pt can really hurt.

Also always keep your elbow tucked, hitting a bh return can be like an arm bar if fully extended, hurts. My coach played high lvl club in germany, he actually broke his elbow once on a return. Perhaps a scarey story, but really helps.
Grip too small or squeezing to much is more likely to result in GE (medial epicondylitis) than TE (lateral epicondylitis).
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I call both sides tennis elbow. Aint no doctor... :)
Creates confusion. Many posters don't make the distinction and come to the H&F forum asking what can be done about their TE when, in fact, it is GE or some other "elbow" issue. The OP indicated that Lucas and Kei are out for the season cuz of TE. However, turns out that neither has TE. Lucas P = bone edema. Kei N = bone spurs.

GE & TE are both overuse injuries (usually) and are epicondyle tendinopathies. But different locations & different causes.

 

kramer woodie

Professional
After 58 years of playing tennis, in my teen years 5 hours per weekday 2:30PM to 7:30PM, and 10 hours every Sunday and sometimes Saturdays also. At 28 years of age, I played about 4 hours per weekday, while I was while unemployed for 10 months during a recession. Today at the age of 73, for the last 7 years spending 5 to 6 hours a day 6 days a week on the court, No Tennis Elbow or Golfer's Elbow!!!!

Earlier in life was a pitcher from age 7 to 14. Played Little League and Pony.

Now the racquets I used were Kramer Autograph extra heavy 15+ ounces strung with full Victor 16 gauge blue-twist natural gut strung at 72 pounds
with a 4-7/8s inch grip, from 1961 to 1974. In the 1970s switched to using Yonex YY8500 strung at 60 pounds with nylon (you call it syn-gut) with a 4-5/8s inch grip. Today, for the last 7 years I have used Yonex SI 98s, 330 gram V Cores (Wawrinka's and the black and orange frame), and now use the SV extended 27.5 Red/Black frame with full poly. The last 7 years the frames have all had a RA of 68 to 70 and strung with full poly at 45 to as low as 35 pounds.

So I don't know what to say about TE or GE, other than some people must be genetically inferior besides having bad technique. Here I should note, even some of the very best Major League pitchers have to have Tommy Johns Surgery. Therefore, TE and GE suffers must have some genetic weaknesses. What were you grandparents, parents, or even great-grandparents up to, that messed up your DNA.

Shalom
 
C

Chadalina

Guest
Creates confusion. Many posters don't make the distinction and come to the H&F forum asking what can be done about their TE when, in fact, it is GE or some other "elbow" issue. The OP indicated that Lucas and Kei are out for the season cuz of TE. However, turns out that neither has TE. Lucas P = bone edema. Kei N = bone spurs.

GE & TE are both overuse injuries (usually) and are epicondyle tendinopathies. But different locations & different causes.

Ya, i had an arm thread here, it really hurt in the area, turns out the tendon thing that connect my forearm muscle to it got strained. Took 5-10secs to extend my arm and lasted for 8months. It actually hurt and i have very high tolerance (beer hehe).

Had TE 2 times and GE once. I have 1h bh and was hitting (1pc poly) with my arm too straight. The fh i think i did it serving and the groundstroke aggrivated it (old grip on a bad clay court, also 1pc poly)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Female players and juniors hardly get elbow injuries even though they play the same amount of time and frequency as the men, so the overuse theory does not apply to them. How come?
My theory is that us dudes hit the little fuzzy yellow ball as if it is a ton of brick. We hold the racket with a death grip, squeezing it hard every time we hit, and trying to hit a home run.
Every time we do that the arm muscles get tightened and stress out the tendons connecting to the elbow. The index and middle fingers are connected to the arm muscle that causes TE while the ring finger and pinky are connected to the muscle/tendon that causes GE. Having better technique will help resolving the issues because we use the bigger muscles instead. With better technique you will feel that you hit better balls with a relaxed grip and wrist, even with the serve.
Another thing is when guys do their rehabs, they try to make the arm stronger, but stronger, tight muscles will stress out the tendons even more. The combination of relaxed arm muscles and pliable tendons is your best defence against TE and GE.
Of course overuse is also a factor, so listening to your elbow is crucial. But us dudes also suck at listening too.ne
Hence the dilemma!
I have coached for decades and have seen plenty of juniors and female players with TE, GE (or some other 'elbow' issue). However, most female players and junior players employ a 2-handed Bh. It is certainly possible for 2-handed Bh players to develop TE but it is considerably less common than it is with 1-handed players. But important to note that one can develop TE (or GE) from something other than tennis (or golf).

Note that death grip will more likely result in GE (golfer's elbow) rather than TE.
 
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Chadalina

Guest
Note that death grip will more likely result in GE (golfer's elbow) rather than TE.
Death grip on a poopy clay court (raised lines etc) is something to stay away from. Guaranteed to have to make a few quick adjustments off the bounces.

I like hardcourts, knee's are fine. Everyone who says clay is better has a freaking knee brace :p
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Tennishabit, please don’t take this the wrong way, but for some time I have been trying to read your posts on this and other TE threads, and I cannot decode them. I really want to understand what you are trying to say because it could be interesting or even useful. I would urge you to try to write in short and clear sentences. Less is more. Seek out the writings of Judge Lynn Hughes, United States District Judge for the Southern District of Texas. They are online.
From the bits and pieces that I can "decode", I get the impression the @tennishabit does have some useful insight but it's just too much of a challenge/chore to decipher it.

It's nearly as painful as trying to read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. I recall struggling to make it thru one of Conrad's paragraphs. I would get maybe halfway thru but then realize that I didn't recall what the first part of the paragraph had said. I suspect that more than 80% of students don't bother. Much easier to read CliffNotes or SparkNotes than endure the pain of trying to read something like this.

http://davidrickert.com/2013/03/15/...why-i-will-no-longer-teach-heart-of-darkness/
 

maleyoyo

Professional
I have coached for decades and have seen plenty of juniors and female players with TE, GE (or some other 'elbow' issue). However, most female players and junior players employ a 2-handed Bh. It is certainly possible for 2-handed Bh players to develop TE but it is considerably less common than it is with 1-handed players. But important to note that one can develop TE (or GE) from something other than tennis (or golf).

Note that death grip will more likely result in GE (golfer's elbow) rather than TE.
Why?
Death grip involves all fingers. Different fingers are connected to different muscles of the elbow
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Why?
Death grip involves all fingers. Different fingers are connected to different muscles of the elbow
Just a few muscles in the hand itself -- for the thumb and for some fine motor control of the other fingers. Some muscle action in the hand when you spread your fingers, I believe. Most of the larger forces of the hands come from muscles in the forearm (via tendons that go thru the wrists).

With your opposite hand, feel the contraction & movement of your forearm muscles and tendons. When you make a fist or squeeze your fingers, you feel quite a bit of tension or activity in the GE (medial epicondyle) area. There will be little or no tension in the TE (lateral epicondyle) area.

You will also feel the muscles/tendons in this area contract with wrist flexion.

https://www.exploratorium.edu/sports/hands_up/hands6.html
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@maleyoyo @Chadalina

Golfer's elbow (GE), aka climber's elbow, is a condition that arises mainly from overuse of muscles and tendons of the forearm, namely the flexor and pronator muscles = flexor carpi radialis and the pronator teres. These muscles are used for squeezing of the fingers (making a fist) as well as for wrist flexion and hand/forearm pronation.

Less likely to be involved are the palmaris longus, the flexor digitorum superficialis, and the flexor carpi ulnaris. The anterior medial epicondyle is the primary area of involvement with this condition.

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1231997-overview


Front (palm side) of right arm:

https://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/sport-injuries/elbow-pain/medial-elbow-pain/golfers-elbow

Front view of left arm:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/golfers-elbow/symptoms-causes/syc-20372868
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I just want to say that I used to feel a bit of tension in my forearm after hitting for 2 hours or so intensely, not quite in the elbow area but just the forearm muscles were sore.

I used poly poly hybrid.

Now that im using a Gut poly (well testing it) I don't feel anything anymore.

So strings are a big part of this.
 

maleyoyo

Professional
Just a few muscles in the hand itself -- for the thumb and for some fine motor control of the other fingers. Some muscle action in the hand when you spread your fingers, I believe. Most of the larger forces of the hands come from muscles in the forearm (via tendons that go thru the wrists).

With your opposite hand, feel the contraction & movement of your forearm muscles and tendons. When you make a fist or squeeze your fingers, you feel quite a bit of tension or activity in the GE (medial epicondyle) area. There will be little or no tension in the TE (lateral epicondyle) area.

You will also feel the muscles/tendons in this area contract with wrist flexion.

https://www.exploratorium.edu/sports/hands_up/hands6.html
Try this:
Straighten out your right arm. Use your left hand to press down both ring finger and pinky of the right hand at the same time. Then try to lift those 2 fingers while being press down. You would feel the muscle being stresses is connected directly to the lateral part of the elbow, lateral epicondyle.
If you try the same with the other 2 fingers, middle and the ring finger, you would feel the tension leading to the medial epicondyle.
When you have GE or TE, the cause of the pain is very obvious when performing those 2 exercise.
This led me to believe the the main culprit for TE is the muscle connecting to the ring finger and pinky. Likewise the cause for GE is from the other two fingers.
That is why I believe the death grip could be the cause for both TE and GE depend on your grip on the racket.
I think if we could isolate the cause then it's easier to modify our technique to prevent elbow injuries.
 
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undecided

Semi-Pro
Try this:
Straighten out your right arm. Use your left hand to press down both ring finger and pinky of the right hand at the same time. Then try to lift those 2 fingers while being press down. You would feel the muscle being stresses is connected directly to the lateral part of the elbow, lateral epicondyle.
If you try the same with the other 2 fingers, middle and the ring finger, you would feel the tension leading to the medial epicondyle.
When you have GE or TE, the cause of the pain is very obvious when performing those 2 exercise.
This led me to believe the the main culprit for TE is the muscle connecting to the ring finger and pinky. Likewise the cause for GE is from the other two fingers.
That is why I believe the death grip could be the cause for both TE and GE depend on your grip on the racket.
I think if we could isolate the cause then it's easier to modify our technique to prevent elbow injuries.
I am in agreement with your assessment. That's one of the tests my doctor did.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@HouTex
I am in agreement with your assessment. That's one of the tests my doctor did.
Have seen a number of tests for TE & GE. Never seen the 1 described by @maleyoyo

What was the exact diagnosis in your case? Was it medial epicondylitis? Lateral epicondylitis? Medial collateral ligament sprain? Bursitis? Something else? Was your physician able to determine exactly what tennis actions caused your problem?

Also, did your doc say which tests applied to your particular condition? It is very possible that some tests were performed to eliminate other possible causes or issues.
 
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tennishabit

Hall of Fame
Try this:
Straighten out your right arm. Use your left hand to press down both ring finger and pinky of the right hand at the same time. Then try to lift those 2 fingers while being press down. You would feel the muscle being stresses is connected directly to the lateral part of the elbow, lateral epicondyle.
If you try the same with the other 2 fingers, middle and the ring finger, you would feel the tension leading to the medial epicondyle.
When you have GE or TE, the cause of the pain is very obvious when performing those 2 exercise.
This led me to believe the the main culprit for TE is the muscle connecting to the ring finger and pinky. Likewise the cause for GE is from the other two fingers.
That is why I believe the death grip could be the cause for both TE and GE depend on your grip on the racket.
I think if we could isolate the cause then it's easier to modify our technique to prevent elbow injuries.
yup man, the main cause of te/ge is 'death grip' for sure8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B.....................
 

undecided

Semi-Pro
@HouTex

What was the exact diagnosis in your case? Was it medial epicondylitis? Lateral epicondylitis? Bursitis? Something else? Was your physician able to determine exactly what tennis actions caused your problem?

Also, did your doc say which tests applied to your particular condition? It is very possible that some tests were performed to eliminate other possible causes or issues.
I got both TE and GE. GE started 1st and I tried accommodating it (being stupid) and then got TE as a result.
He did a bunch of tests mainly touching the spots that we've all seen in pictures while asking me to gently bend wrist and/or fingers in certain directions while he was providing resistance. He comment was 'almost everyone gets TE/GE' at some point even if they don't play racquet sports. He sees it a LOT. He said it's primarily the wrist that pulls on those muscles that end up yanking on the tendons. His recommendation was a wrist brace to keep the wrist from bending while healing. He said that because I mention that I wake up with my arm hurting in the morning and then the pain subsides and then it hurts again the next morning. I am probably twisting it while I sleep.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I am in agreement with your assessment. That's one of the tests my doctor did.
I got both TE and GE. GE started 1st and I tried accommodating it (being stupid) and then got TE as a result.
He did a bunch of tests mainly touching the spots that we've all seen in pictures while asking me to gently bend wrist and/or fingers in certain directions while he was providing resistance. He comment was 'almost everyone gets TE/GE' at some point even if they don't play racquet sports. He sees it a LOT. He said it's primarily the wrist that pulls on those muscles that end up yanking on the tendons. His recommendation was a wrist brace to keep the wrist from bending while healing. He said that because I mention that I wake up with my arm hurting in the morning and then the pain subsides and then it hurts again the next morning. I am probably twisting it while I sleep.
Have seen quite a few tests for TE & GE. Never come across the test described by maleyoyo. You indicated that your doctor performed the same test. Was that test for GE, TE or for some other condition?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@maleyoyo
yup man, the main cause of te/ge is 'death grip' for sure8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B.....................
That's not been my experience... with teaching students for 2+ decades & on this H&F forum for the past 14 yrs. GE usually seen with excessive wrist flexion or resulting from the 'death grip'. Certain serve actions also appear to contribute to GE.

We have seen TE with the 'death grip' as a cause much less frequently. Sometimes occurs when a 'death grip' is coupled with wrist extension and/or excessive wrist actions. More often TE is seen with improper technique on 1-handed BHs or with excessive wrist actions on various strokes (regardless of grip pressure).

Common contributing factors: Poly/Kevlar strings, certain racket designs (insufficient shock countermeasures), rackets that are too light, frequent/excessive off-center contacts (framing the ball).
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@undecided @tennishabit
Try this:
Straighten out your right arm. Use your left hand to press down both ring finger and pinky of the right hand at the same time. Then try to lift those 2 fingers while being press down. You would feel the muscle being stresses is connected directly to the lateral part of the elbow, lateral epicondyle.
If you try the same with the other 2 fingers, middle and the ring finger, you would feel the tension leading to the medial epicondyle.
When you have GE or TE, the cause of the pain is very obvious when performing those 2 exercise.
This led me to believe the the main culprit for TE is the muscle connecting to the ring finger and pinky. Likewise the cause for GE is from the other two fingers.
That is why I believe the death grip could be the cause for both TE and GE depend on your grip on the racket.
I think if we could isolate the cause then it's easier to modify our technique to prevent elbow injuries.
(Note: You mention 'ring finger' twice. I assume you meant 'index finger' in 2nd case).

I tried your test and did not observe or come to the same conclusion at all. In Both cases, I observed considerably more action (contraction) on the medial (GE) side than on the lateral (TE) side... very significant action on the (medial) inside and rather limited action on the (lateral) outside.

Did you take a close look at the links (and images) that I posted in #89 and #90? The muscle structure / anatomy does not appear to support your contention that flexion/squeezing of the the last 2 fingers affects the tendons attached to one epicondyle while flexion/squeeze of the other 2 fingers affects the tendons to the other epicondyle.
 
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maleyoyo

Professional
@undecided @tennishabit

(Note: You mention 'ring finger' twice. I assume you meant 'index finger' in 2nd case).

I tried your test and did not observe or come to the same conclusion at all. In Both cases, I observed considerably more action (contraction) on the medial (GE) side than on the lateral (TE) side... very significant action on the (medial) inside and rather limited action on the (lateral) outside.

Did you take a close look at the links (and images) that I posted in #89 and #90? The muscle structure / anatomy does not appear to support your contention that flexion/squeezing of the the last 2 fingers affects the tendons attached to one epicondyle while flexion/squeeze of the other 2 fingers affects the tendons to the other epicondyle.
Sorry for that poorly written post. Yes I meant the index finger in the second exercise. The test was performed by a very prominent PT when I had TE. I forgot to mention that the test was done with the injured arm with the palm facing down. The effect of the test was very obvious when pain was present at the lateral epicondyle.

Your pictures show the anterior view of the forearm. If you look at the posterior view of the forearm you will see the extensor carpi ulnaris is connected between the pinky and lateral epicondyle.
The extensor digitorum connects all 4 fingers except the thumb to the outside of the elbow.
 

HouTex

Rookie
One of the tests both of my ortho surgeons recommended to determine if you have TE is to sit down at a table or a desk and with your arm fully extended and palm down facing the floor put the tips of your fingers under the table and try to lift the table with your finger tips. The slightest upward pressure will cause severe pain up your forearm to the outside of your elbow. Diagnosed mine perfectly.
 
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