Tennis Elbow - Should I be using the Flex Bar if feeling pain?

[LeeD]

Berdyk is 6'4" tall, so has decent leverage.
Isner is 6'10". Don't ask us to serve just like him. While his height is only a foot more than you and I, his reach could easily be two and a half higher.
Milos is only 6'5", but his arms are the longest for anyone nearly his height.
If you're still suffering from pain of TE, stop playing, heal up in a month, then resume play in a controlled enviornment.

 

[mikeler]

I think dGoran from my area did a speed test on serve with a few different frames that all had varying stiffness values. The radar gun read the same no matter what frame he was using. Food for thought...

 

[movdqa]

I only weight 140lbs, he doesnt.

I imagine that you can use additional SW to compensate for frame stiffness if you still want power.

You might want to spend some time in the gym.

 

[LeeD]

Mikeler, just plain NO!
Try a PDR, then serve with an equal weight but softer racket.
Why does TW serve results rate highest with long and STIFF rackets?
And always low with soft and short rackets!
This isn't rocket science.
My extended Prince03's at 70 flex rating serve the hardest.
My OSHeadMGRad serves the weakest, 58 flex rating.
I can tell the difference in flat serve speeds between my 60 flex rackets and my 63 flex rackets.

 

[movdqa]

Mikeler, just plain NO!
Try a PDR, then serve with an equal weight but softer racket.
Why does TW serve results rate highest with long and STIFF rackets?
And always low with soft and short rackets!
This isn't rocket science.
My extended Prince03's at 70 flex rating serve the hardest.
My OSHeadMGRad serves the weakest, 58 flex rating.
I can tell the difference in flat serve speeds between my 60 flex rackets and my 63 flex rackets.

First time I used a PDR I wondered where the power was. I couldn't get much speed on it. I used a relatively slow, relaxed swing that used the mass of the frame to generate power. My swingspeed went up and I was able to get more speed on the serve but it came at a cost.

TW serve results may give you higher numbers with stiffer frames but Pros seem to go with softer frames with higher swingweights.

 

[Alien]

I think dGoran from my area did a speed test on serve with a few different frames that all had varying stiffness values. The radar gun read the same no matter what frame he was using. Food for thought...

It is interesting and usually experiments denies intuition. That being said I have not measured it but definitely my serve with the 74 stiffness Juice 100s feels much stronger than with the 62 stiffness Blade 98s at least for the moment. Playing with lead tape, still trying to get it perfect.

 

[LeeD]

Bingo, wrong again!
Yes, while ATP pros gravitate towards softer rackets with high SW's and overall weights, we are not ATP trained, nor ATP bodied.
Look at WTA and see the over preponderance (is that a word?) of STIFF rackets of medium weight.
Lots of top 30 ATP pros use the PD rackets. They COULD use a Pure Control but their serves would be absymal.

 

[movdqa]

Bingo, wrong again!
Yes, while ATP pros gravitate towards softer rackets with high SW's and overall weights, we are not ATP trained, nor ATP bodied.
Look at WTA and see the over preponderance (is that a word?) of STIFF rackets of medium weight.
Lots of top 30 ATP pros use the PD rackets. They COULD use a Pure Control but their serves would be absymal.

How do you know what the players in the WTA use? Can you translate the PJs to what the actual racquets are?

There are pros that use stiff racquets but they're typically leaded up. Tsonga has a ton of lead on his PD. Why would a big, strong guy like him need lead tape on his frame if he could generate so much power himself.

From a rec perspective, I find it easier to generate a lot of pace with mass than with stiffness and swingspeed. Yes, I work pretty hard on my fitness to support that but I want to be fitness outside of tennis anyways.

 

[speedysteve]

Mr. Berdych can hit a mighty fast serve (or a slower one with very nice placement) with a 59 flex frame. A hefty swingweight looks like the key to he really flowing serve.

So many people call it easy power.

Yeah, I added a bit more weight 3 & 9, and got more consistency and easy pop on the serve

 

[movdqa]

I loaned a frame to BounceHitBounceHit because he's been looking around for quite some time. It was a YT Prestige MP at 27.75 inches with a SW of about 390. He loved it - couldn't believe the power on the thing. He had Geoff build a set of 28 inch Radical MPs for his use. He apparently didn't require any adjustment period for these things. It took me a few months to get used to these things.

Rec players can use Pro frames. There are lots of people around that play around with Pro frames and Pro spec frames and sometimes they find that they play a lot better or a lot healthier with them.

 

[Alien]

How do you know what the players in the WTA use? Can you translate the PJs to what the actual racquets are?

There are pros that use stiff racquets but they're typically leaded up. Tsonga has a ton of lead on his PD. Why would a big, strong guy like him need lead tape on his frame if he could generate so much power himself.

From a rec perspective, I find it easier to generate a lot of pace with mass than with stiffness and swingspeed. Yes, I work pretty hard on my fitness to support that but I want to be fitness outside of tennis anyways.

Tsonga is so strong that he can handle such amount of lead. Tursunov´s sitcks weight 380grams.

I am a simple mortal and need both lead and stiffness. Because there is a limit to both (my arm is no skinny but I found the 340g RF97 too heavy, the stiffness 74 has hurt my arm).

Of course I hit the gym and I use lead as well.

 

[movdqa]

Tsonga is so strong that he can handle such amount of lead. Tursunov´s sitcks weight 380grams.

I am a simple mortal and need both lead and stiffness. Because there is a limit to both (my arm is no skinny but I found the 340g RF97 too heavy, the stiffness 74 has hurt my arm).

Of course I hit the gym and I use lead as well.

The heaviest frames that I've used were 17 ounces. Really solid frames.

What I found with weight is that your body adapts to it most effectively when it's added gradually. I went from 345 to 365 SW adding a gram or two of lead ever couple of weeks. Getting to 386 was harder. You can look at my video to see me using the frame. I'm not exactly all that big myself but you'd think that I was just a regular player with a regular frame from the video.

 

[Bobby Jr]

..Tsonga has a ton of lead on his PD. Why would a big, strong guy like him need lead tape on his frame if he could generate so much power himself.

Simple. So he can hit the shots where he's strapped for time much better, namely volleys and returns of serves.

 

[Alien]

The heaviest frames that I've used were 17 ounces. Really solid frames.

What I found with weight is that your body adapts to it most effectively when it's added gradually. I went from 345 to 365 SW adding a gram or two of lead ever couple of weeks. Getting to 386 was harder. You can look at my video to see me using the frame. I'm not exactly all that big myself but you'd think that I was just a regular player with a regular frame from the video.

sure. can you guide me, name of thread or link ?

 

[movdqa]

Simple. So he can hit the shots where he's strapped for time much better, namely volleys and returns of serves.

Well, if it's good for him, wouldn't it be good for us?

 

[movdqa]

sure. can you guide me, name of thread or link ?

I don't have a thread but I had a pro stock XL YT Prestige MP coming from a KPS88 (SW 345). The YT Prestige MP is pretty unstable without lead so I kept adding it and trying it out until I found something that I really liked and it had a SW in the 360s.

The BounceHitBounceHit/Geoff frames are in a thread - either the one about mids or one of the RF97 threads. It sounds like a great frame - it's something that I'll consider a few years from now as my current frames are around 27.6 inches and I think that I'd prefer 28 inches. It's just really hard to find 28 inch frames. Geoff has some proprietary technology for extending racquets. Ideally I'd prefer getting frames with 28 inch hairpins as it's all the original piece but I would consider an extension if they hold up long-term.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Well, if it's good for him, wouldn't it be good for us?

Yes. Is someone saying otherwise?

Within reason most competent players should aim to use as heavy a frame as they can manage.* The benefits are many, including less shock on the arm.

(*factoring in how much/long they play of course)

 

[mikeler]

Yes. Is someone saying otherwise?

Within reason most competent players should aim to use as heavy a frame as they can manage.* The benefits are many, including less shock on the arm.

(*factoring in how much/long they play of course)

Use the heaviest frame that you can comfortably serve with. Don't kill your shoulder to save your elbow.

 

[volusiano]

Use the heaviest frame that you can comfortably serve with. Don't kill your shoulder to save your elbow.

I think if somebody's shoulder hurts from using heavier frames for serves then they can try to improve their serve mechanics to solve that problem. It shouldn't be an unsolvable problem due to racket weight.

My wife is a small woman and she uses the Prince EXO3 Tour 100 16x18 which is about 11.6oz and she doesn't have shoulder problem when serving. She's probably a 3.0 only or something and she's still working on improving her serve. But I think as long as all the proper mechanics are in place in the beginning, the heavier racket should be fine for her to serve.

 

[movdqa]

It's not necessarily improving the mechanics - heavy frames require different timing and maybe form and most need some adjustment period.

 

[volusiano]

It's not necessarily improving the mechanics - heavy frames require different timing and maybe form and most need some adjustment period.

To me, timing and form are all parts of the mechanics.

And I also agree that if you switch to a heavier frame, you'll need some adjustment period. But if you start out with a heavy frame in the first place, then the adjustment begins from day one.

In the interest of preventing TE, I'm in the camp who believes that even beginners should start out learning to play with a heavier, head light frame up front if they're serious about playing tennis on a regular basis and are not an occasional player only. Between a lighter frame of around 9oz and a heavier frame of around 12oz, that's only 3oz difference. We're not talking about lbs difference here. Even a small female should be able to handle the extra 3 oz difference if that's what you give them to learn with up front so they get adjusted to it right away. They're not even going to know that the frame is "heavy" if they don't know what a "light" frame is like.

What can injure their shoulder is not the 3oz difference between a lighter and a heavier racket. It's the incorrect mechanics/bad techniques that can injure their shoulder and whatever else.

I recently gave my wife a lighter, head heavy frame (tweener) frame to try out, and naturally she didn't like it one bit because she's already used to the heavier, head-light frame.

 

[mikeler]

I think if somebody's shoulder hurts from using heavier frames for serves then they can try to improve their serve mechanics to solve that problem. It shouldn't be an unsolvable problem due to racket weight.

My wife is a small woman and she uses the Prince EXO3 Tour 100 16x18 which is about 11.6oz and she doesn't have shoulder problem when serving. She's probably a 3.0 only or something and she's still working on improving her serve. But I think as long as all the proper mechanics are in place in the beginning, the heavier racket should be fine for her to serve.

I used that exact same racket for awhile. I'm 190 pounds plus muscular but when I get a little bit higher than that in swingweight, my shoulder hurts. I've got a decent serve for a 4.5 player too. Everyone is different, I stand by my previous point.

 

[Alien]

I played yesterday late afternoon again with my new love Blade 98s. Now hitting full backhands, serves, forehands. Still I wouldn't do my 15 minutes of cross court bhs. I had played already on Wednesday and I plan to train on Sunday.

I came back home, applied ice, arm usually dumb. However, just three hours later, it was absolutely painless (instead of my former three days). This morning, zero dumbness. Nil. Normal arm. A miracle. And still I haven't missed a single week of tennis since it all started more than three months ago.

It seems I am beating it on my own terms!

 

[atvdave32]

Thanks for this thread...

I just got my Flexbar today and have a question. I'm in my younger 50's and have been playing for just over a year. I got TE when I was with my son demoing some racquets hitting serves with way more power than I should have.

Anyway which video is the best way to use your flexbar? The first one (from Thera-Band) has you regrip the bar every time. The 2nd just has you keep twisting the bar after a slow 4 sec untwisting.

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJA_MmAS5ws

Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2QQaVfeI4U

 

[speedysteve]

I like Jamie's

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=we4UoiKG3Co

15 reps of each exercise, 3 times. 3 times a day. 4 or 5 days week.


I've used his G.E. vid with good effect.
I found stretching got me nowhere at all. Stopped it and did the exercises. Bingo!
I also find if I have a slightly stiff elbow the Flexbar exercises will limber it up.

Start easy. I have been going from red to green bar and have had to ease the green in slowly or the joint in general and the tendon feel it a bit more than I'd like.

One thing about the title of this thread.
Some discomfort has always been present in all physio I've done - repeated lumbago, slipped disc, torn knee ligaments. Physio's always push you a little more than you would yourself I've found, but in a controlled way. Pushing through a bit of discomfort fine, pain.. hmm judgement call on where's the line is drawn.

 

[movdqa]

I grasp, roll and hold for four seconds, and release and do this for 75 seconds. Then I do the other direction.

 

[jimrawr]

Just wanted to update this thread for anyone else dealing with TE whos looking for information. So I am almost 5 months since the injury occurred, and still not 100%. On a day-to-day basis my elbow feels ok but starts to get stiff if I am on the PC a lot of time.

I started playing tennis again about 3 weeks ago and I can play fine without much pain. I do get soreness afterwards so I ice the crap out of it, and take 3 advil after every game. Helps with the swelling. When I play, I take it easy. Not hitting serves hard at all, staying away from 1HBH.

Hoping it will go away soon, but its really lingering on here. Not using the flexbar at all at this point anymore

 

[movdqa]

It's possible that using the PC (if you use it daily) may be aggravating (inflammation) a problem. PC issues tend to show up as hand/wrist pain but I guess that it can extend to the arm.

You probably want to fix the PC issue and that usually involves desk height, chair height, and good posture. I find that a wrist rest helps.

I never used to use one but one came with a keyboard that I bought, so I tried it out and was surprised at the amount of comfort that it provided.

The mouse can be important too but it may take a while to come up with a solution for that. Some people use trackpads (you tap instead of clicking), trackballs, mice with top-surface trackpads, ergo mouses which fit your hand nicely, etc.

 

[max]

Jim, sorry to hear this. Me, I'm planning to go to the sports doc again and try to figure out what to do. Mine doesn't go away. I'm wondering if the tendon's shot.

I stopped using the flexbar since it's so easy to overdo. Even the regular massage stuff just flamed it all up.

 

[HouTex]

I wish I had discovered this site last year when I developed TE. Tons of good information here. It's amazing how many people have a similar experience as I have had with TE. Thanks for everyone's input.

I'm 52 and have been playing tennis since I was eight. I've never had TE until May 2014. I wasn't sure how it happened--I was only playing tennis about 2-3 times a month but I did buy a new racquest (a Willson ProStaff 100LS) just prior to developing TE. My old racquet was about 12 years old--a Wilson Hyper ProStaff 6.1 I was playing more golf than usual and I spent a weekend trying to unscrew (unsucessfully) the light fixture in my swimming pool. I figured that a combination of those things caused it--but I'm not sure. A person at my club's tennis shop said she knows of four other people who have developed TE after switching to the 100LS.

In early June 2014 I played in a mixed doubles tournament and the pain became so bad that I almost retired. Except for about 10 minutes on the back board yesterday, I haven't picked up a racquet since.

After the June 2014 tournament I iced the elbow two or three times a day and seeing no significant improvement I went to an ortho surgeon in July 2014. He diagnosed me with a classic case of TE. He gave me a cortisone shot and said to start PT. I went to PT for about two months.

With no significant improvement I went back to the ortho in early September 2014 and he gave me another cortisone shot. It felt great for a couple of days but the pain came back. I continued PT and I played golf maybe twice a month. The golf swing doesn't hurt the elbow while I play and it does not interfere with my swing, but it's sore the next day or two after playing.

Seeing no signfiicant improvement I went back to the ortho in early November 2014 and after an MRI revealed the tendon injury he said I might want to consider surgery. The alternative to surgery, he said, was a several month process of PT and limited activity. He warned me about the risks but I was so impatient I wanted this to be resolved asap. I scheduled surgery for early December 2014.

After sleeping on it I decided to get a second opinion. I went to another ortho (an acquaintence and sometimes doubles partner) and he advised me to hold off on surgery and he suggested one more cortisone shot. The third shot hurt like crazy for the first 36 hours but then the pain went away completely. He said to not play golf or tennis for 30 days.

About 75 days later, after being completely pain free (and thinking the TE was cured), I started to play golf again and I began to notice some slight pain in the elbow. After a ski trip in February 2015 the pain was about like it was before.

The second surgeon suggested I try the Graston treatment. I found a chiro that did it and I went through eight very painful treatments that ended in mid April 2015. The chiro also did PT on the elbow along with ultrasound and electric therapy. I also started wearing the Bandit brace full time. I also bought the red and green flexbars and I have been using them every day now since May 1.

Around the middle of May 2015 I noticed some significant pain relief. I can squeeze a tennis ball without it hurting and doing a finger extension with a rubber band around my fingers does not hurt anymore. I can do the strength exercises with the green flexbar without any pain. Typing is no problem.

Yesterday I demo'd a Volkl Classic V1 on the blackboard and there's no pain hitting a serve or a FH. I hit a 1HBH and I noticed some pain after a few shots. I'm a little sore today, but it's way better than it was a couple of months ago. While I think I'm on the road to recovery I'm clearly not there yet. It will take a few months and I believe I'll have to learn a 2HBH.

I've always been a quick healer and I never guessed this would take over a year to heal. I'm not sure this condition is worth the risks of surgery, but had I known I would be out of the game for over a year, I might have gone through with the surgery. If you decide against surgery I can only suggest that TE requires patience. I think the flexbars and the Bandit have helped (and maybe the Graston as well), but I'm not sure it's them or whether it's just running its course. Good luck everyone.

 

[jimrawr]

Jezzzzzz, still feel some discomfort in certain situations with my elbow. I wouldn't call it pain anymore, but it stiffens up when using the pc, or even going for a run. Can't wait for this to finally pass. In the meantime I've taken up Golf and having fun playing that, and I do not get any discomfort in my elbow before or after golf so that's good. Want to get back out on a tennis court!

 

[kiteboard]

I use the flex bar and have developed tennis exercises for it.
Bend it into a U, with the bent portion up in the air, and twist it shoulder to shoulder, rotating it 180 degrees each time, until you can build up some speed doing it. 50/day
Take it and hold it up in the air, and begin firing your hand outwards and back towards you, as if you are hitting a snap back volley, making it waggle back and forth as fast as you can go, with some back hands, and fome fh.
Extend your non dom arm out to the side, like a fh, and snap the bar all the way back, and pull your non dom arm back towards you as you snap the bar back and extend the bar out as if it's a fh stroke.
Do a double loop with it, just as people do when warming up their serve, but use the bar instead of a frame.
Twist it into a U, and "fire" it very fast outwards, and twist it back, and fire it out 180 degrees twisted each time.
Lie on a bed, stick the non dom arm straight up, and "fire" the bar backwards, while yanking/pulling your non dom arm back towards the bed you fire the bar back and slap the bed with it.
Bend it up into a U, and roll it all the way forward while still bent, hold, and roll all the way backwards, and hold, and keep doing it.
Just bend it into a U, straight up, and just hold it bent for as long as you can.

 

[kiteboard]

Jimraww - I forgot to say that I also massage my arm constantly and have had a massage therapist work on my arm, too. This is extremely important. In my case, I've pinpointed where my muscle is knotted, and still trying to work it out.

Buy a small spiked therapy ball, and dig it into the hurt area to break up the injury.