Tennis evolded so much that best female player now beats best male player from the past.

Prime Mcenroe vs Swiatek on FO

  • Iga would be a favourite.

    Votes: 7 11.9%

  • John would win.

    Votes: 49 83.1%

  • Equal chances.

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • Total voters
    59
ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate

ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate

Professional
Thats my claim. I ve seen dozen of matches of prime Mcenroe from 1979, and if we compare to modern female tennis (Sabalenka or Iga on clay) i think they would beat him.

Reasons are:
1-Physicality not a big factor since back then physical prep was not top.
2-If we compare average speeds by Mcenroe and Sabalenka, Aryna hits harder usually, plus John has a vulnerable backhand and a strange forehand tecnique too.
3-Advantages from John would be just the volley and possibly the serve.
So, the real question is... if we can agree that prime John Mcnroe wont be a favourite on French Open vs modern Iga Swiatek, can we think of a female player than in 50 years could beat prime Alcaraz. Will tennis evolve that much, or we are approaching the limit?


As we can see in the video, ball speed not really there, and very atackable backhand which Iga would exploit and soffocate.

I am not trying to diminish the tremendous player than Mcenroe was, but trying to explain how much tennis has changed and evolved in this 50 years.
 
Why on earth would 80s JMac be playing present-day Swiatek, at all? What is the possible relevance of these
absurd hypotheticals? Since you asked, though: Mac would crush either of them like a bug, partly because men move
so much better both laterally and fore-and-aft (!) than the ladies.. it'd be like a cute practice session: "here, I'll feed the ball to you again, little lady.." Amongst many other things, one obvious other being RoS.
 
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Vincent-C said:
Why on earth would 80s JMac be playing present-day Swiatek? What is the possible relevance of these
hypotheticals? Since you asked, though: Mac would crush either of them like a bug, partly because men move
so much better both laterally and fore-and-aft (!) than the ladies. Amongst many other things, one other being RoS..
Click to expand...
Because, as i said, it is part of the tennis evolution. So, how exactly would Mc crush her, since as you can see in the video, movement was not much better back then than current Igas movement plus very atackable backhand. I guess, volley and serve, way better than Iga specially volley, but thats it.


Ball speed superior and movement at least, not inferior.
 
ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate said:
Thats my claim. I ve seen dozen of matches of prime Mcenroe from 1979, and if we compare to modern female tennis (Sabalenka or Iga on clay) i think they would beat him.

Reasons are:
1-Physicality not a big factor since back then physical prep was not top.
2-If we compare average speeds by Mcenroe and Sabalenka, Aryna hits harder usually, plus John has a vulnerable backhand and a strange forehand tecnique too.
3-Advantages from John would be just the volley and possibly the serve.
So, the real question is... if we can agree that prime John Mcnroe wont be a favourite on French Open vs modern Iga Swiatek, can we think of a female player than in 50 years could beat prime Alcaraz. Will tennis evolve that much, or we are approaching the limit?


As we can see in the video, ball speed not really there, and very atackable backhand which Iga would exploit and soffocate.

I am not trying to diminish the tremendous player than Mcenroe was, but trying to explain how much tennis has changed and evolved in this 50 years.
Click to expand...
I am glad we now have you here to "explain". Thanks so much.
 
Vincent-C said:
Video of two wimmen playing each other is not "evidence". Go back and look at 55 year-old Bobby Riggs annihilating
Margaret Court in 1973:

Click to expand...
Well is not that two women were playing each other, i brought that video so you can see the insane level that Iga brought to that match.

I agree, even at 60 yo, Mcnroe would destroy Margaret Court.

But Swiatek isnt Court, is like comparing an amateur with a professional player, difference is too insanely big between the two.

By the way, and i know is not very relevant i asked the question to Chat GPT and...:


CHAT GPT

This is a fascinating clash of eras and styles. In a hypothetical prime-versus-prime matchup on clay, Iga Świątek holds a significant advantage due to the evolution of the sport and her specific mastery of the surface.

The Case for Iga Świątek
  • Clay Supremacy: Świątek boasts a win rate of over 90% at Roland Garros, securing four titles by age 23.
  • Athleticism & Movement: John McEnroe himself has praised her movement, telling Eurosport that she slides and defends on clay better than almost anyone in history, drawing parallels to Novak Djokovic.
  • Modern Physics: The heavy topspin and sheer ball speed of the modern game are far beyond what was standard in the 1980s. Swiatek’s heavy forehand would likely push McEnroe deep behind the baseline, neutralizing his serve-and-volley tactics.

The Case for John McEnroe
  • Tactical Genius: In 1984, McEnroe achieved an 82-3 season record, the highest win percentage in Open Era history. His "touch" and ability to take the ball early could theoretically disrupt Iga's rhythm.
  • The "Net" Factor: If McEnroe could force Iga into a cat-and-mouse game at the net, he would have the upper hand. However, getting there against her crushing groundstrokes is a tall order.

The Verdict
While McEnroe was a genius, clay was his weakest surface (he never won Roland Garros, famously losing the 1984 final to Ivan Lendl). Świątek, conversely, is a clay-court specialist whose physical game is built for the dirt. Between the modern racquet technology and her superior sliding ability, Świątek would likely win a baseline battle decisively.
Would you like to see how the odds shift if we move this match to the grass of Wimbledon?
 
ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate said:
Well is not that two women were playing each other, i brought that video so you can see the insane level that Iga brought to that match.

I agree, even at 60 yo, Mcnroe would destroy Margaret Court.

But Swiatek isnt Court, is like comparing an amateur with a professional player, difference is too insanely big between the two.

By the way, and i know is not very relevant i asked the question to Chat GPT and...:


CHAT GPT

This is a fascinating clash of eras and styles. In a hypothetical prime-versus-prime matchup on clay, Iga Świątek holds a significant advantage due to the evolution of the sport and her specific mastery of the surface.

The Case for Iga Świątek
  • Clay Supremacy: Świątek boasts a win rate of over 90% at Roland Garros, securing four titles by age 23.
  • Athleticism & Movement: John McEnroe himself has praised her movement, telling Eurosport that she slides and defends on clay better than almost anyone in history, drawing parallels to Novak Djokovic.
  • Modern Physics: The heavy topspin and sheer ball speed of the modern game are far beyond what was standard in the 1980s. Swiatek’s heavy forehand would likely push McEnroe deep behind the baseline, neutralizing his serve-and-volley tactics.

The Case for John McEnroe
  • Tactical Genius: In 1984, McEnroe achieved an 82-3 season record, the highest win percentage in Open Era history. His "touch" and ability to take the ball early could theoretically disrupt Iga's rhythm.
  • The "Net" Factor: If McEnroe could force Iga into a cat-and-mouse game at the net, he would have the upper hand. However, getting there against her crushing groundstrokes is a tall order.

The Verdict
While McEnroe was a genius, clay was his weakest surface (he never won Roland Garros, famously losing the 1984 final to Ivan Lendl). Świątek, conversely, is a clay-court specialist whose physical game is built for the dirt. Between the modern racquet technology and her superior sliding ability, Świątek would likely win a baseline battle decisively.
Would you like to see how the odds shift if we move this match to the grass of Wimbledon?
Click to expand...

"ChatGPT", eh? snoozy..
 
Teleport any top male player from the 70s into 2026 and force them to play with their 70s equipment and they would get destroyed by the top female players of today. Teleport any female player into the 70s without any gear and make them play with what was available in the 70s and they would get destroyed.

Teleport Nadal into 1920s Tilden era without any gear and see how he would do. 15oz tiny wooden racket, NO grip, just a wood handle, with those ball and a grass surface that plays like my back yard.

There is no comparison in tennis. Baseball did well to maintain the fields and bats and try to maintain some sort of continuity between eras. Tennis has nothing like this. No other sport has evolved as much as tennis in terms of equipment and surfaces. Tennis is one of the worst sports you can imagine in terms of comparing eras.
 
Devilito said:
Teleport any top male player from the 70s into 2026 and force them to play with their 70s equipment and they would get destroyed by the top female players of today. Teleport any female player into the 70s without any gear and make them play with what was available in the 70s and they would get destroyed.

Teleport Nadal into 1920s Tilden era without any gear and see how he would do. 15oz tiny wooden racket, NO grip, just a wood handle, with those ball and a grass surface that plays like my back yard.

There is no comparison in tennis. Baseball did well to maintain the fields and bats and try to maintain some sort of continuity between eras. Tennis has nothing like this. No other sport has evolved as much as tennis in terms of equipment and surfaces. Tennis is one of the worst sports you can imagine in terms of comparing eras.
Click to expand...
Ah, another clairvoyant!

impressive..
 
merwy said:

Do you still think so after seeing him play with modern equipment? Mind you, he was 47 in this video and had been retired for god knows how many years.
Click to expand...
Thanks for re-posting this telling video. Newbies who think the [much tougher, non-*****] players from previous eras would be blown off the court these days make me smile. If you've ever played against one, you certainly know what I mean. ;)
 
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My sister, who is 7 years older than I, was an all-conference tennis player in the 1970s. She continued to play in college in the 1980s. I got all of her hand-me down rackets as the technology changed. Those tiny but heavy wooden rackets were hell to use. The sweet spot was the size of a silver dollar. You couldn’t just tee off with those things. It was shank city. Each racket got better with time. But even those mid-1980s rackets were trash; even compared to a modern Walmart racket. I have some 20 dollar cheap rackets and can’t believe how good they are compared to the trash that I grew up with during Mac’s era. That’s right. 20.00 Walmart rackets seem awesome!

I’ve been to a PowerShares tournament live and up close. The 52 year old Mac with a modern racket in 2011 was bombing 110 mph serves with tons of spin. He served far better than in 1984, thanks to the ball technology and especially the rackets. In 2015, he gave Andy Roddick fits; although Andy finally broke him at 5-5 and went on to win 7-5(they played one set is all for the match). Roddick said that Mac’s net game was genius and his slice serves out wide was very tough to return.

Now granted, 1984 Mac with the crap frying pan racket might very well lose to a modern Swiatek with a souped up racket and much better shoes. But that’s like saying Mario Andretti with his extremely rare 20/8 vision and cat-like reflexes would lose to a high school kid if he was handicapped with a 1970s car. But if you give them the same equipment; Mac will win easily; even on clay.
 
Pheasant said:
My sister, who is 7 years older than I, was an all-conference tennis player in the 1970s. She continued to play in college in the 1980s. I got all of her hand-me down rackets as the technology changed. Those tiny but heavy wooden rackets were hell to use. The sweet spot was the size of a silver dollar. You couldn’t just tee off with those things. It was shank city. Each racket got better with time. But even those mid-1980s rackets were trash; even compared to a modern Walmart racket. I have some 20 dollar cheap rackets and can’t believe how good they are compared to the trash that I grew up with during Mac’s era. That’s right. 20.00 Walmart rackets seem awesome!

I’ve been to a PowerShares tournament live and up close. The 52 year old Mac with a modern racket in 2011 was bombing 110 mph serves with tons of spin. He served far better than in 1984, thanks to the ball technology and especially the rackets. In 2015, he gave Andy Roddick fits; although Andy finally broke him at 5-5 and went on to win 7-5(they played one set is all for the match). Roddick said that Mac’s net game was genius and his slice serves out wide was very tough to return.

Now granted, 1984 Mac with the crap frying pan racket might very well lose to a modern Swiatek with a souped up racket and much better shoes. But that’s like saying Mario Andretti with his extremely rare 20/8 vision and cat-like reflexes would lose to a high school kid if he was handicapped with a 1970s car. But if you give them the same equipment; Mac will win easily; even on clay.
Click to expand...
This is very insightful actually thank you for this. This further strenghtens my dislike for inter-era comparisons.
 
Pheasant said:
My sister, who is 7 years older than I, was an all-conference tennis player in the 1970s. She continued to play in college in the 1980s. I got all of her hand-me down rackets as the technology changed. Those tiny but heavy wooden rackets were hell to use. The sweet spot was the size of a silver dollar. You couldn’t just tee off with those things. It was shank city. Each racket got better with time. But even those mid-1980s rackets were trash; even compared to a modern Walmart racket. I have some 20 dollar cheap rackets and can’t believe how good they are compared to the trash that I grew up with during Mac’s era. That’s right. 20.00 Walmart rackets seem awesome!

I’ve been to a PowerShares tournament live and up close. The 52 year old Mac with a modern racket in 2011 was bombing 110 mph serves with tons of spin. He served far better than in 1984, thanks to the ball technology and especially the rackets. In 2015, he gave Andy Roddick fits; although Andy finally broke him at 5-5 and went on to win 7-5(they played one set is all for the match). Roddick said that Mac’s net game was genius and his slice serves out wide was very tough to return.

Now granted, 1984 Mac with the crap frying pan racket might very well lose to a modern Swiatek with a souped up racket and much better shoes. But that’s like saying Mario Andretti with his extremely rare 20/8 vision and cat-like reflexes would lose to a high school kid if he was handicapped with a 1970s car. But if you give them the same equipment; Mac will win easily; even on clay.
Click to expand...
Agree on most points, but the MAX 200G was quite a good racquet.
Not as good as a Pro Staff 85 (magic wand), though.
 
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Mustard said:
Why are so many humans deferring to AI today, to do their thinking for them? This is utterly insane.

AI is often very wrong unless you ask it very literal questions. If AI doesn't know the answer, it will confidently bluff like a confident human being would.
Click to expand...
Hear, hear. Read Gary Marcus's blog on "AI": it doesn't "know" anything..
 
Gastino said:
Click to expand...
Pretty good match! The guy was clearly better but she wasn't thoroughly outplayed (as in bageled). I think she'd do better now, as she's a few years older. But you can clearly see that the man has the physical edge. It's most apparent to me in the serve and the movement.
 
Vincent-C said:
My money would be on 67-year-old JMac.
Click to expand...

I would bet on Swiatek. I think it would be a close run thing between her and 60-year-old Edberg (and I'm confident that 54-year-old Sampras would beat her), but I think that muscle-mass loss in one's 60s is sufficient to make it unlikely that she would lose to 67-year-old McEnroe.
 
merwy said:
Pretty good match! The guy was clearly better but she wasn't thoroughly outplayed (as in bageled). I think she'd do better now, as she's a few years older. But you can clearly see that the man has the physical edge. It's most apparent to me in the serve and the movement.
Click to expand...
he was also visibly nervous in the beginning ... the men's game can't be compared to the women's game sabalenka has the same UTR rating as the 1000th ranked man.
 
Vincent-C said:
Hear, hear. Read Gary Marcus's blog on "AI": it doesn't "know" anything..
Click to expand...
A good thing to do with "AI" is to ask it a precisely-worded question on a *topic of which you
already have deep knowledge*- and see what it confidently, inaccurately spouts out.

What a con that technology is. cui bono?
 
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helterskelter said:
I would bet on Swiatek. I think it would be a close run thing between her and 60-year-old Edberg (and I'm confident that 54-year-old Sampras would beat her), but I think that muscle-mass loss in one's 60s is sufficient to make it unlikely that she would lose to 67-year-old McEnroe.
Click to expand...
Mac's in pretty good shape, though (we're the same age, size, build- both essentially S/V lefties). The muscle loss is not inevitable, judging from my own experience- though it takes substantial work. Aqua-aerobics helps noticeably for movement, too; esp for unweighting for movement at the net.
 
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helterskelter said:
I would bet on Swiatek. I think it would be a close run thing between her and 60-year-old Edberg (and I'm confident that 54-year-old Sampras would beat her), but I think that muscle-mass loss in one's 60s is sufficient to make it unlikely that she would lose to 67-year-old McEnroe.
Click to expand...
Mac would probably be game for a current match-up with Swiatek.. he's still pretty competitive, from what I hear. :p
 
People here are jumping to conclusions too soon. If it's old equipment then Mac will be in trouble, not because of talent or athleticism but because those racquets would be spraying left right and center when subjected to high RPMs.

Case in point : watch the ATP series of current pros playing with old racquets at Monte Carlo.

Swiatek's FH RPMs were measured to be at 3000+ and BH RPMs must be at 2000+.

She hits at 70-80 mph off both wings.

That is 10 times heavier ball than what Mcenroe would have ever faced in his lifetime. For reference even Federer Forehand was 2600-2800 RPMs usually. Swiatek FH is heavier in terms of the WTA balls.

**Mcenroe by talent, movement and athleticism (I haven't seen him in those years but as per comments here) maybe miles ahead.**

But with his 1980s racquet he is going to be an error machine because the balls will come at him in a manner he never would have faced at the time.

7-5 7-5 or something to Swiatek.
 
ForehandCross said:
People here are jumping to conclusions too soon. If it's old equipment then Mac will be in trouble, not because of talent or athleticism but because those racquets would be spraying left right and center when subjected to high RPMs.

Case in point : watch the ATP series of current pros playing with old racquets at Monte Carlo.

Swiatek's FH RPMs were measured to be at 3000+ and BH RPMs must be at 2000+.

She hits at 70-80 mph off both wings.

That is 10 times heavier ball than what Mcenroe would have ever faced in his lifetime. For reference even Federer Forehand was 2600-2800 RPMs usually. Swiatek FH is heavier in terms of the WTA balls.

**Mcenroe by talent, movement and athleticism (I haven't seen him in those years but as per comments here) maybe miles ahead.**

But with his 1980s racquet he is going to be an error machine because the balls will come at him in a manner he never would have faced at the time.

7-5 7-5 or something to Swiatek.
Click to expand...

Of course if it's current equipment and Mac is given sometime to adapt he will get better of Swiatek.
 
ForehandCross said:
People here are jumping to conclusions too soon. If it's old equipment then Mac will be in trouble, not because of talent or athleticism but because those racquets would be spraying left right and center when subjected to high RPMs.

Case in point : watch the ATP series of current pros playing with old racquets at Monte Carlo.

Swiatek's FH RPMs were measured to be at 3000+ and BH RPMs must be at 2000+.

She hits at 70-80 mph off both wings.

That is 10 times heavier ball than what Mcenroe would have ever faced in his lifetime. For reference even Federer Forehand was 2600-2800 RPMs usually. Swiatek FH is heavier in terms of the WTA balls.

**Mcenroe by talent, movement and athleticism (I haven't seen him in those years but as per comments here) maybe miles ahead.**

But with his 1980s racquet he is going to be an error machine because the balls will come at him in a manner he never would have faced at the time.

7-5 7-5 or something to Swiatek.
Click to expand...


Checked just now , Mac played with a racquet of 82 sq inch head size and 364 gms.

Good luck with that when Swiatek moves him corner to corner.
 
ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate said:
Okey, so what weapons would Mcenroe use to beat Iga? Iga would be extra solid and attack his backhand, bring a lot of intensity etc.
Click to expand...
His serve and volley. Well disguised lefty serve. Chip and charge with slices. Everything he did to be the #1 player.
Like Arthur Ashe said "he doesn't overpower you, he cuts you and cuts you, and by the end of the much you bleed to death".
 
ForehandCross said:
People here are jumping to conclusions too soon. If it's old equipment then Mac will be in trouble, not because of talent or athleticism but because those racquets would be spraying left right and center when subjected to high RPMs.

Case in point : watch the ATP series of current pros playing with old racquets at Monte Carlo.

Swiatek's FH RPMs were measured to be at 3000+ and BH RPMs must be at 2000+.

She hits at 70-80 mph off both wings.

That is 10 times heavier ball than what Mcenroe would have ever faced in his lifetime. For reference even Federer Forehand was 2600-2800 RPMs usually. Swiatek FH is heavier in terms of the WTA balls.

**Mcenroe by talent, movement and athleticism (I haven't seen him in those years but as per comments here) maybe miles ahead.**

But with his 1980s racquet he is going to be an error machine because the balls will come at him in a manner he never would have faced at the time.

7-5 7-5 or something to Swiatek.
Click to expand...
Today's women players are not good at handling low bounce slices. Mac would eat them up at the net.
 
ErnestoVillanuevaCagliate said:
Because, as i said, it is part of the tennis evolution. So, how exactly would Mc crush her, since as you can see in the video, movement was not much better back then than current Igas movement plus very atackable backhand. I guess, volley and serve, way better than Iga specially volley, but thats it.


Ball speed superior and movement at least, not inferior.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure "evolution" via natural selection does not work the way you think it does.
 
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