Tennis in post-World Cup city

[Dragy]

Hello fellow TT'ers! Under this flashy heading I'd like to put some videos of myself playing what I feel the nerve to call "tennis" Actually started filming again after a year break to observe development and track issues, and thought - why not ask the community for feedback, or maybe even entertain someone? So please enjoy a practice set with my regular partner. I'm the blue shirt.

We know each other pretty well, used to split sets, but a couple of latter outings I fall behind. Would be nice if you could, apart from technique flaws' pointers, share some insight to tactics - I mostly feel like I don't play the opponent but stick with A-game (or defend forcedly).

 

[Stretchy Man]

Nice serve.

 

[FiReFTW]

Nice serve motion, and you are tall, with alot of practice you have potential to serve huge.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

With such a decent looking service motion and your height I'd expect way more pace, I know it's clay but Your opponent has no trouble at all with it. Definitely develop this into a weapon.

You need to get more topspin on the ball, on the fh at least. Trying to hold back and finesse the ball in is hurting you and causing more errors imo. With your strokes you should be able to easily beat this guy in the future.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I mostly feel like I don't play the opponent but stick with A-game (or defend forcedly).

First of all, props to you for posting a video: great stuff!

When you wrote that you don't play the opponent, do you mean that you ignore your opponent and just concentrate on what you're doing?

If so, I suggest you start paying more attention to your opponent because you could be making better decisions based on his strengths and weaknesses. It's understandable for a less experienced player to only concentrate on themselves because they are working on just getting the ball in play. But as you improve, your focus needs to shift to the other side of the net.

So your A game or primary plan is "defend forcedly": does that mean "counter-puncher"? Take his pace and use it against him?

I would try and keep it simple and:
- follow Wardlaw
- attack his weaknesses with your strength [ie use your FH to hit to his BH]
- try to hide your weaknesses [ie run around your BH to hit a FH, within reason]
- high 1st serve %
- attack short balls and come in to the net

 

[Dragy]

Nice serve.

Nice serve motion, and you are tall, with alot of practice you have potential to serve huge.

With such a decent looking service motion and your height I'd expect way more pace, I know it's clay but Your opponent has no trouble at all with it. Definitely develop this into a weapon.

1st serves are all spinners in this video, which lowers the pace. I think, my fastest was like just over 90mph. I actually hit more pace flattish ones, but am inconsistent: one day or two it works, then on the next outing I cannot land one in to save my life. Need more regular practice with all the variations. Glad my 2nds finally got to some decent level of consistency, even though I still DF a bit to many times.

With regard to my opponent having no problems returning, I think he posesses pretty good hand-eye coordination and naturally adjusts well to lost of balls unless really stretched. His favorite shots are counter-punches - numerous times in our matches I got smacked after hitting what I thought was a good approach. Works with hard serves as well - kicking ones, meanwhile, give him trouble.

Trying to hold back and finesse the ball in is hurting you and causing more errors imo. With your strokes you should be able to easily beat this guy in the future.

Yeah that's a trouble - tightening up, holding back, misjudging the ball and not moving well enough to adjust, up to freezing to observe incoming moonballs... I work with it, has been absolutely terrible on some days, better on other.

First of all, props to you for posting a video: great stuff!

When you wrote that you don't play the opponent, do you mean that you ignore your opponent and just concentrate on what you're doing?

If so, I suggest you start paying more attention to your opponent because you could be making better decisions based on his strengths and weaknesses. It's understandable for a less experienced player to only concentrate on themselves because they are working on just getting the ball in play. But as you improve, your focus needs to shift to the other side of the net.

So your A game or primary plan is "defend forcedly": does that mean "counter-puncher"? Take his pace and use it against him?

I would try and keep it simple and:
- follow Wardlaw
- attack his weaknesses with your strength [ie use your FH to hit to his BH]
- try to hide your weaknesses [ie run around your BH to hit a FH, within reason]
- high 1st serve %
- attack short balls and come in to the net

Did you watch the video? What can you say out of what you see?

No, I don't focus on landing the balls in. No, I defend forcedly when I'm, you know, forced. My A-game is following directionals with rally balls, hitting topspin drives to the BH from the middle, hitting forcing shots off short balls - DTL or sharply angled CC. Following to the net when well inside baseline.

What I cannot do at the moment is categorizing the quality of various aspects of opponent's game. Finding the weaknesses, playing to capitalize on those. Neither with new opponents nor with my regular partners. I'm in a mindset that it's my execution on my level that holds me back - should cut the UEs and untighten to hit heavier drives.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I realize that Draggy is in the blue shirt.

The Youtube lists 60 fps for playback. Was it recorded at 60 or 50 fps?

Frame #1. First serve, fault. Shoulders look too level in comparison to a high level serve. This serve displays more racket to the sky than a high level serve usually does. Some ISR can be seen by the elbow shadows rotating. Not WT, not high level, unknown technique. This should be examined with high speed video from the same camera angle of a high level serve. Upper arm looks to be at a higher angle than recommended to minimize impingement injury risk. See Frame #2 & especially #3.

Frame #2. Second serve. Again, the racket faces the sky.

Frame #3. The upper arm is too high and looks like there is an added risk of impingement. He also does ISR. The upper arm orientation applies throughout the service motion not just at impact. Compare to high speed videos and pictures of high level servers.

Todd Ellenbecker has a video, "Rotator Cuff Injury" that describes the orientation of the upper arm that minimizes the risk of shoulder impingement. That video is now available for member viewing on Tennis Resources. You can join for 3 months for about $30.

Has he had shoulder pain?

Almost all ATP servers are examples of good practice regarding the upper arm angle throughout the service motion. Be sure to compare from the same camera angle. Sometimes Federer's upper arm is too high. But the arm in picture is more.

Jim McLennan has a short video.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

No, I don't focus on landing the balls in. No, I defend forcedly when I'm, you know, forced. My A-game is following directionals with rally balls, hitting topspin drives to the BH from the middle, hitting forcing shots off short balls - DTL or sharply angled CC. Following to the net when well inside baseline.

What I cannot do at the moment is categorizing the quality of various aspects of opponent's game. Finding the weaknesses, playing to capitalize on those. Neither with new opponents nor with my regular partners. I'm in a mindset that it's my execution on my level that holds me back - should cut the UEs and untighten to hit heavier drives.

I agree that reducing the UEs will be a large part of your improvement. However, I didn't mention that initially because you asked for us to concentrate on tactics.

From your description above, you're already doing what I suggested.

 

[Dragy]

From your description above, you're already doing what I suggested.

Well, I try to. That's why I'm asking - you guys have seen lots of videos, given advice based on what you've seen. Does it look like I'm taking right choices? What can be better in terms of general strategy and what is noticeable with this exact opponent? Or it comes mostly to "stop shanking, hit better, practice your shots to not lay you down in matchplay"?

 

[Chas Tennis]

We have had several posts on the biomechanics of the one hand backhand. Recall the "chest presses on the upper arm" posts.

My approach is to copy high level strokes and study any differences between a poster's stokes and those selected strokes. I have decided that Gasquet, Justine Henin, and Wawrinka have model high performance one hand backhands. All three have similar techniques.

Your arm is bent but theirs is straight for forward acceleration. Do you have a model backhand with a bent elbow?

Look at Gasquet for a model in this comparison. His arm is straight.

Also, I think it is biomechanically significant to compare the body rotation axes for Mojo28 and Gasquet, maybe located in the neck area?, and the distances from those axes to the racket heads. Look at the distance from Mojo28's rotation axis to his racket head. Compare to Gasquet, the difference due mainly to the downward angle of his straight arm compared to Mojo28's. Racket head speed from rotation is equal to rotation rate times the radius out from the axis. In other words, the racket head speed is proportional to the distance from the rotation axis.

Click on the up arrow.

[ Note for new readers - It is necessary for this analysis to understand the defined joint motions of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow does not go anywhere, it just spins like a top around the upper arm's center line.]

Pictures of each frame of Mojo's video. The time scales are in milliseconds with "0" milliseconds being impact. -267 milliseconds is about 1/4 second before impact.

I point out differences between better high level strokes and the poster's strokes. A poster can select a high level stroke and copy it or use some other stroke model. Or, go with instruction or on their own without a model or instruction.

Mojo's ball is lower than Gasquet's. Compare similar ball heights for better analysis.

Frame at -267 ms. It looks as if at 267 milliseconds before impact the OP has turned his shoulders back to about the same angle as Gasquet has. Compare also shoulder turn angles at impact, at Frame -0 ms. The positions of the arms and rackets are different. Gasquet's racket has not come down and is still in front of his body. Is Mojo copying some other backhand stroke? Mojo has also done pronation to bring the racket down. Impression is that Mojo is doing his own thing. ? (To see angles more accurately, the cameras for both backhands need to view the players and courts from the same angle. Wear tight fitting clothes or a short sleeve shirt to better see the upper arm, elbow angle, etc.)

Frame at -233 ms. Mojo has brought his racket farther down. Gasquet's racket has gone up slightly. Mojo's elbow looks bent more and his upper arm (between the shoulder and elbow) has more downward rotation (ISR). Compare ISR angle to ISR angle as these frames progress.

Frame at -200 ms. Mojo's racket is still lowering and low. Gasquet's is just starting to lower.

Frame at -167 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down from the shoulder joint. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest.

Frame at -133 ms. Mojo's racket still lowering. Gasquet's now lowering with more rapid drop.

Frame at -100 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down at the chest. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest. Gasquet now appears to have started more upper body turn. I believe that to produce this early arm and racket acceleration that Gasquet is pressing hard on his upper arm with his chest powered by the forces of turning his upper body. If a credit card were between his chest and upper arm, would it be pressed tightly? How much upper arm pressing Mojo is doing this is not clear (due to the obscuring shirt and arm angle). But his upper body does not appear to be turning as rapidly.

Frame at -67 ms. The racket head speed developed by any rotation depends on the location of the axis of rotation and the distance out from that rotation axis. Look at the arm and racket angle and the distance out from the location of the rotation axis (guessed for now). It looks as if Mojo's arm angle is not favorable for racket head speed. Also, Mojo's racket is already much more rotated toward the ball trajectory. Gasquet's racket is >180° back from the ball's trajectory. Gasquet's upper arm is pressed to his chest as discussed.

Frame at -33 ms. Look at the racket to ball trajectory angle for Mojo, 45°? Look at the racket to trajectory angle for Gasquet still >180°. The total turns of Mojo's and Gasquet's upper bodies from Frame -267 ms seem somewhat similar, similar average speeds. The upper arm and racket have been used differently. Another motion - now look at the elbow bones and estimate the angular position of internal shoulder rotation, or axial rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. Compare ESR from -33 ms to -0 ms.

Frame at -0 ms closest to impact. The big differences from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms are the angular movement of Gasquet's racket and the much larger movement of his hand in the forward direction in comparison to Mojo. Also, Mojo's racket is open and Gasquet's is closed at impact. Possibly the ball height was a factor in how closed the racket was.? Now look at Gasquet's elbow bones and compare them to Frame -33 ms. Gasquet has done rapid external shoulder rotation (ESR) from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms. That has moved the racket up and added to the topspin that the upward hand path already would have produce without ESR. Because Gasquet brought down his racket earlier with a near straight arm, it caused rapid ISR and pre-stretched his ESR muscles, he is using those stretched muscles in this frame. (Search the Stretch Shorten Cycle).

Frame at +33ms after impact. Mojo's hand and racket go more forward. Gasquet's goes more forward and up. ESR has continued.

Frame at +67 ms. Comparison of the follow throughs.

Video.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Well, I try to. That's why I'm asking - you guys have seen lots of videos, given advice based on what you've seen. Does it look like I'm taking right choices? What can be better in terms of general strategy and what is noticeable with this exact opponent? Or it comes mostly to "stop shanking, hit better, practice your shots to not lay you down in matchplay"?

I think in general you're making high % choices.

A few times you broke Wardlaw by taking an outside ball with your FH and going DTL rather than CC.

You might try to vary things a bit more: it seemed like you were mainly hitting the same type of ball rather than consciously trying to vary depth, spin, angle, and pace.

Then again, you shouldn't sacrifice consistency just to add variety. I'd vote for consistency at this stage.

 

[J011yroger]

1. Why is your mouth wide open for most of your service motion? The muscles in your face should be very relaxed which will help keep the neck and shoulders loose, breathe deep in the windup and forcefully exhale as you swing.

2. You are not hitting with any intent. You can spin your serve in but the first ball after your opponent returns should be aggressively struck to seize control of the point. If you are returning, neutralize his serve with your return then look to take control of the point.

J

 

[Dragy]

1. Why is your mouth wide open for most of your service motion? The muscles in your face should be very relaxed which will help keep the neck and shoulders loose, breathe deep in the windup and forcefully exhale as you swing.

Nice spot! It's an old habit. Truly, marks me being tight. I've made jump shots playing basketball with same face Latest serve practice, at some point, I suddenly desided to keep my face relaxed. Will work on this further on.

2. You are not hitting with any intent. You can spin your serve in but the first ball after your opponent returns should be aggressively struck to seize control of the point. If you are returning, neutralize his serve with your return then look to take control of the point.

Should I do it anyway, or once I don't feel confident I'm ok to hit some neutral drives for some groove? Or should I leave it for practice and warm up sessions?

 

[Chas Tennis]

If you completely relax the muscles that keep the mouth shut, doesn't the jaw drop?

If you look up with the mouth held closed there is muscular tension in the front of the neck. If you open your mouth the tension decreases. Try it. Is looking sharply up a reason for an open mouth?

Look at pictures of dunks where the head is looking up. Interesting issue? Stats?

I do this too on the serve. I asked my dentist about the serve in a conversation about grinding teeth. He said 'sure' ...then something about certain muscles...in chest?.....that I never understood.

For pro serves, hardly any do it, but I might have seen a few, not sure...

 

[Dragy]

We have had several posts on the biomechanics of the one hand backhand. Recall the "chest presses on the upper arm" posts.

My approach is to copy high level strokes and study any differences between a poster's stokes and those selected strokes. I have decided that Gasquet, Justine Henin, and Wawrinka have model high performance one hand backhands. All three have similar techniques.

Your arm is bent but theirs is straight for forward acceleration. Do you have a model backhand with a bent elbow?

Look at Gasquet for a model in this comparison. His arm is straight.

Also, I think it is biomechanically significant to compare the body rotation axes for Mojo28 and Gasquet, maybe located in the neck area?, and the distances from those axes to the racket heads. Look at the distance from Mojo28's rotation axis to his racket head. Compare to Gasquet, the difference due mainly to the downward angle of his straight arm compared to Mojo28's. Racket head speed from rotation is equal to rotation rate times the distance from the axis. In other words, the racket head speed is proportional to the distance from the rotation axis.

Click on the up arrow.

I've been filming some warups yesterday and today and looked at BHs among other things. I observed my bent-elbow takebacks, and I'm a bit unsatisfied with not dropping it low enough. Still, I get straight arm by contact. Here're some:

I'm actually going to experiment to get to straight arm earlier, at the bottom of the backswing. And drop the racquet lower consistently. Though I'm not completely sure locking the elbow before uncoil is the best form. Couple of years ago I was like trying to achieve at least some feel similar to serve and forehand - fluid, no arm musculing, etc. Pretty obvious, keeping ISRed arm straight during forwrad swing (uncoil) is an effort - relaxed arm will bend/stay bent, and then, possibly, straighten into the contact - provided outward swing at slowing of body rotation (like in forehand). Which way is better - keeping straight arm or letting it lag? I don't know. Some flippy-flappy BHs appeared effective in my practice.

 

[Dragy]

The Youtube lists 60 fps for playback. Was it recorded at 60 or 50 fps?

Originally filmed at 60.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I've been filming some warups yesterday and today and looked at BHs among other things. I observed my bent-elbow takebacks, and I'm a bit unsatisfied with not dropping it low enough. Still, I get straight arm by contact. Here're some:

I'm actually going to experiment to get to straight arm earlier, at the bottom of the backswing. And drop the racquet lower consistently. Though I'm not completely sure locking the elbow before uncoil is the best form. Couple of years ago I was like trying to achieve at least some feel similar to serve and forehand - fluid, no arm musculing, etc. Pretty obvious, keeping ISRed arm straight during forwrad swing (uncoil) is an effort - relaxed arm will bend/stay bent, and then, possibly, straighten into the contact - provided outward swing at slowing of body rotation (like in forehand). Which way is better - keeping straight arm or letting it lag? I don't know. Some flippy-flappy BHs appeared effective in my practice.

When you compare videos take the other video literally. Compare frame-by-frame to Gasquet.
The video was recorded at 240 fps but on Vimeo the frames often skip especially with a side-by-side video. The time scale should tell you if skipping occurred.

Time between frames 240 fps - 4.2 milliseconds between frames
Time between frames 60 fps - 16.7 milliseconds between frames

The chest pressing the upper arm that we discussed in another thread does not look effective.

In your OP video, you had more upper body, two shoulder turn, that was shown by the blue shirt with lines. This video, you are more relaxed and not trying for pace, not a much shoulder turn.

Getting a straight arm seems as if it should be very easy but I am also working on this and it is not easy.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've been filming some warups yesterday and today and looked at BHs among other things. I observed my bent-elbow takebacks, and I'm a bit unsatisfied with not dropping it low enough. Still, I get straight arm by contact. Here're some:

I'm actually going to experiment to get to straight arm earlier, at the bottom of the backswing. And drop the racquet lower consistently. Though I'm not completely sure locking the elbow before uncoil is the best form. Couple of years ago I was like trying to achieve at least some feel similar to serve and forehand - fluid, no arm musculing, etc. Pretty obvious, keeping ISRed arm straight during forwrad swing (uncoil) is an effort - relaxed arm will bend/stay bent, and then, possibly, straighten into the contact - provided outward swing at slowing of body rotation (like in forehand). Which way is better - keeping straight arm or letting it lag? I don't know. Some flippy-flappy BHs appeared effective in my practice.

I think you are pretty and your 2hbh looks good.

OH!!! you are the dude. I watched you when she was out of picture ... pretty darn smooth. Seems like given your height and wingspan you should be able to bring some hammer with that smooth. Usually comes down to max shoulder turn, closed stance and timing.

Not so fast on earlier straight arm. I think there are great 1hbh with variations in when arm becomes straight (Fed just before contact, Wawrinka at backswing).

You are already smooth with the Fed style ... stick with it imo. If I was you, I would experiment adding more Fed. Higher take back, racquet vertical at backswing, gravity drop. I do not think gravity drop adds rhs, but can be your timing friend.

Check where Fed's arm finally gets totally straight (near contact ... past front leg). His elbow leads a bit at front leg ... so does yours.

Check Wawrinka ... his arm gets straight at backswing .. or at least very early in forward swing.

To me, this means power comes more from torso/shoulder rotation and upper arm ... not the timing of straight arm.

 

[J011yroger]

Nice spot! It's an old habit. Truly, marks me being tight. I've made jump shots playing basketball with same face Latest serve practice, at some point, I suddenly desided to keep my face relaxed. Will work on this further on.

Should I do it anyway, or once I don't feel confident I'm ok to hit some neutral drives for some groove? Or should I leave it for practice and warm up sessions?

Your first priority should be to remove tension from your body. It creates errors, robs power and tires you out.

Easy to say, hard to do, I know.

There is nothing wrong with being nervous and hitting safe shots, but you still need intent. Don't do less than you are capable of.

J

 

[FiReFTW]

I've been filming some warups yesterday and today and looked at BHs among other things. I observed my bent-elbow takebacks, and I'm a bit unsatisfied with not dropping it low enough. Still, I get straight arm by contact. Here're some:

I'm actually going to experiment to get to straight arm earlier, at the bottom of the backswing. And drop the racquet lower consistently. Though I'm not completely sure locking the elbow before uncoil is the best form. Couple of years ago I was like trying to achieve at least some feel similar to serve and forehand - fluid, no arm musculing, etc. Pretty obvious, keeping ISRed arm straight during forwrad swing (uncoil) is an effort - relaxed arm will bend/stay bent, and then, possibly, straighten into the contact - provided outward swing at slowing of body rotation (like in forehand). Which way is better - keeping straight arm or letting it lag? I don't know. Some flippy-flappy BHs appeared effective in my practice.

Tell me you talked to her and got her number???!???

 

[Dragy]

I think you are pretty and your 2hbh looks good.

Tell me you talked to her and got her number???!???

Cmon guys, she was not that pretty to be honest. Would probably destroy me on court, though.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Cmon guys, she was not that pretty to be honest. Would probably destroy me on court, though.

We are so easily distracted.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............Seems like given your height and wingspan you should be able to bring some hammer with that smooth. Usually comes down to max shoulder turn, closed stance and timing.

Not so fast on earlier straight arm. I think there are great 1hbh with variations in when arm becomes straight (Fed just before contact, Wawrinka at backswing).

You are already smooth with the Fed style ... stick with it imo. If I was you, I would experiment adding more Fed. Higher take back, racquet vertical at backswing, gravity drop. I do not think gravity drop adds rhs, but can be your timing friend.

Check where Fed's arm finally gets totally straight (near contact ... past front leg). His elbow leads a bit at front leg ... so does yours.

Check Wawrinka ... his arm gets straight at backswing .. or at least very early in forward swing.

To me, this means power comes more from torso/shoulder rotation and upper arm ... not the timing of straight arm.

Good point.

I favor a different technique than Federer's one hand backhand technique. Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin use a different technique. The bent elbow is one difference and the way the upper arm moves relative to the chest is another. The upper arm appears pressed by the chest for Wawrinka, Henin and Gasquet. Not so clear for Federer, upper arm separates from the chest much earlier, always that technique? ..... Discussed in detail in a long thread on high level one hand backhands.

See post #50 to end.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Draggy should go through the one hand backhands in the top 100 ATP and look for straight arm or arm bent at elbow. Get some stats. I have decided to go with the technique used by Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin as models. The chest pressing on the upper arm adds a lot of pace for me and I have not succeeded in straightening the elbow yet...

Federer's backhand got better in 2017. Reason unknown.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've been filming some warups yesterday and today and looked at BHs among other things. I observed my bent-elbow takebacks, and I'm a bit unsatisfied with not dropping it low enough. Still, I get straight arm by contact. Here're some:

I'm actually going to experiment to get to straight arm earlier, at the bottom of the backswing. And drop the racquet lower consistently. Though I'm not completely sure locking the elbow before uncoil is the best form. Couple of years ago I was like trying to achieve at least some feel similar to serve and forehand - fluid, no arm musculing, etc. Pretty obvious, keeping ISRed arm straight during forwrad swing (uncoil) is an effort - relaxed arm will bend/stay bent, and then, possibly, straighten into the contact - provided outward swing at slowing of body rotation (like in forehand). Which way is better - keeping straight arm or letting it lag? I don't know. Some flippy-flappy BHs appeared effective in my practice.

Since my 2hbh project, I have pretty much ignored my 1hbh (other than slice). I did video my 1hbh last year to see what it looked like ... my guess is it's been the same since my 20s. I checked my video after suggesting you try a more Fed like vertical racquet take back ... and mine didn't get to vertical. I got to hit with some buddies yesterday, and hit several 1hbhs with a more vertical racquet going back. Whoa ... that was a good tip. Watching your video again ... you did exactly this in your 1st 1hbh in the video. To me, the form on that 1st 1hbh looked really good. I will be curious if you find the earlier straight arm better for you ... but imo that first 1hbh you hit is good to go ... just needs reps.

It's ironic that I have read so many good 1hbh tips on this forum after moving to 2hbh. I can see tweaks to my 1hbh I would make. My 1hbh was always solid, and could count on my dtl ... but I would now go back and add more low to high. I love hitting a 1hbh and waist level and lower balls, but I am hitting WAY more offense on nipple level drives with 2hbh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Good point.

I favor a different technique than Federer's one hand backhand technique. Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin use a different technique. The bent elbow is one difference and the way the upper arm moves relative to the chest is another. The upper arm appears pressed by the chest for Wawrinka, Henin and Gasquet. Not so clear for Federer, upper arm separates from the chest much earlier, always that technique? ..... Discussed in detail in a long thread on high level one hand backhands.

See post #50 to end.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Draggy should go through the one hand backhands in the top 100 ATP and look for straight arm or arm bent at elbow. Get some stats. I have decided to go with the technique used by Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin as models. The chest pressing on the upper arm adds a lot of pace for me and I have not succeeded in straightening the elbow yet...

Federer's backhand got better in 2017. Reason unknown.

Since you have reviewed pro 1hbhs, have you run across any that go straight to slot without a drop (or loop). That is a valid option with 2hbh (Rios) ... but I can't think of any pro player 1hbhs.

hahaha .... thought of one ... probably most in his era. Check 3rd and 4th stroke.

 

[Dragy]

Since my 2hbh project, I have pretty much ignored my 1hbh (other than slice). I did video my 1hbh last year to see what it looked like ... my guess is it's been the same since my 20s. I checked my video after suggesting you try a more Fed like vertical racquet take back ... and mine didn't get to vertical. I got to hit with some buddies yesterday, and hit several 1hbhs with a more vertical racquet going back. Whoa ... that was a good tip. Watching your video again ... you did exactly this in your 1st 1hbh in the video. To me, the form on that 1st 1hbh looked really good. I will be curious if you find the earlier straight arm better for you ... but imo that first 1hbh you hit is good to go ... just needs reps.

It's ironic that I have read so many good 1hbh tips on this forum after moving to 2hbh. I can see tweaks to my 1hbh I would make. My 1hbh was always solid, and could count on my dtl ... but I would now go back and add more low to high. I love hitting a 1hbh and waist level and lower balls, but I am hitting WAY more offense on nipple level drives with 2hbh.

I don't think I'll go for straight-all-way, definitely not Thiem-way. What I try to incorporate now is getting the thing lower somewhere on the very beginning of the swing. In the video it looks like I make high takeback and then get the head down with the off hand, but the handle seems to stay a bit too high by the moment uncoil starts. Responsible for some issues with hitting descending balls too flat or mishitting them (in the lower part of stringbed). Should get below the ball and make a low-to-high cut rather than level-to-high.

With regard to the form, some first Bhs were baseline, mid-video lower contact ones were against a volleying opponent.

Add: funny thing is, played today and hit like 5 good shots in a 1h+ setplay. Most balls where badly anticipated, terribly approached and therefore mishit or bunted weakly to the other side. Good thing is I didn't film this outing and mustn't watch that disaster.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't think I'll go for straight-all-way, definitely not Thiem-way. What I try to incorporate now is getting the thing lower somewhere on the very beginning of the swing. In the video it looks like I make high takeback and then get the head down with the off hand, but the handle seems to stay a bit too high by the moment uncoil starts. Responsible for some issues with hitting descending balls too flat or mishitting them (in the lower part of stringbed). Should get below the ball and make a low-to-high cut rather than level-to-high.

With regard to the form, some first Bhs were baseline, mid-video lower contact ones were against a volleying opponent.

Add: funny thing is, played today and hit like 5 good shots in a 1h+ setplay. Most balls where badly anticipated, terribly approached and therefore mishit or bunted weakly to the other side. Good thing is I didn't film this outing and mustn't watch that disaster.

"With regard to the form, some first Bhs were baseline, mid-video lower contact ones were against a volleying opponent."

Yeah ... figured something like that. I just missed that first 1hbh in your video.

 

[Dragy]

I played 3 sets on Sunday with a nice guy, well moving and getting most balls back, reinforcing this retriever tactics with approaching the net here and there, including S&V, and hitting precise finishers every now and then. I got totally destroed: 0, 1, 0, even though there were some tight games, and I generally felt playing not-that-bad. Looking into video captured I decided that I should make a "lowlights" reel. Actually, these are UEs which, if cut, and if some DFs cut as well, and some return errors (didn't include them), could get me to at least competitive score, if not a set. So welcome the rubric "Why I missed that shot?"

 

[ByeByePoly]

I played 3 sets on Sunday with a nice guy, well moving and getting most balls back, reinforcing this retvier tactics with approaching the net here and there, including S&V, and hitting precise finishers every now and then. I got totally destroed: 0, 1, 0, even though there were some tight games, and I generally felt playing not-that-bad. Looking into video captured I decided that I should make a "lowlights" reel. Actually, these are UEs which, if cut, and if some DFs cut as well, and some return errors (didn't include them), could get me to at least competitive score, if not a set. So welcome the rubric "Why I missed that shot?"

Did that one @1:43 hit the wall on the fly?

Tennis is HARD!!!

 

[Dragy]

Did that one @1:43 hit the wall on the fly?

Tennis is HARD!!!

Ha! As I told, I played yesterday magnificently... so I twice hit over the back fence with a still rising trajectory! Other court, lower fence, but still. Was inside the court and going for load of TS, but failed to control racquet face. That’s one issue of mine hitting the ball square with low-to-high swing...

 

[Dragy]

As I've already bit the bullet with this thread and cannot hide my real tennis personality behind this fancy avatar...
What's wrong with this forehand? @J011yroger @nytennisaddict and others...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

As I've already bit the bullet with this thread and cannot hide my real tennis personality behind this fancy avatar...
What's wrong with this forehand? @J011yroger @nytennisaddict and others...

lack of reps?
your shadow swings look great (ie. what you're trying to do)
seems like you just need to hit alot more balls,... specifically focusing on a consistent racquet face during the swing, on a variety of balls... as well as establishing more consistent movement (footwork) that give you better spacing relative to your contact point (you jam yourself from time to time)
but i think that all gets sorted out after a few million more balls.
to me, what you're trying to do seems right (unit turn, pat the dog, wieght xfer, low to high swing, etc...)
if there's any one critique is that your footwork should be more actively trying to fight for the ideal contact... but maybe you're still struggling with recognizing wher ethe ball is gonna be, so you don't know where to move to...
but again, that's just seeing alot more balls.

some things to try... drop feed yourself 100 balls (force yourself to take at least 3-4 steps away)... swing out.... with good shape, see where the stroke breaks down... can you hit a high % of those balls in, with good spin, shape, etc...
then try a ball machine
etc...

my $0,02

 

[J011yroger]

As I've already bit the bullet with this thread and cannot hide my real tennis personality behind this fancy avatar...
What's wrong with this forehand? @J011yroger @nytennisaddict and others...

Your swingpath is wrong, you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target but you are instead pulling your hand to the left.

Also you are forcing the pronation/windshield wiper with your arm. That's the path to injury and inconsistency.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Your swingpath is wrong, you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target but you are instead pulling your hand to the left.

J

Huh?

 

[Dragy]

What about this?

 

[J011yroger]

What about this?

That's much better. If you want good wall practice use that line that comes straight out from the wall and hit along it. That will get your hand accelerating to the target because if you don't then the ball won't go straight. The goal is to hit the ball on one bounce and have it come straight back to you without needing to move left or right hardly at all.

The other thing you should do is put a piece of tape or a mark on the wall 3' over the height of the net and aim for it. This will teach you how to correct.

It will be frustrating at first but the more you do it the better you will get at it.

J

 

[J011yroger]

Huh?

I said his swingpath was wrong.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

I said his swingpath was wrong.

J

Good afternoon sir Jolly. My question is with hand path going to the left. This place is confusing ... one thread says pull hand left and Jolly says toward target. Obviously our hand goes to the left at some point in a tennis swing. I am going to assume your "toward target" comment is for flip FHs (probably not same for McEnroe fh). We all want good extension ... whatever that is exactly. When I watch Fed slow motion FHs ... I see hand/butt cap go toward ball, but not necessarily court target location. For example ... check Fed FH @00:45 below. Looks like his hand goes toward ball ... but turns left before contact (we all know it has to because swing goes around ... even low to high swings).

The reason for my "huh" is Dragy's original FH video would have past my test of good fh swing ... I'm trying to see difference between his first video and then the wall. I know what good extension is on my 2hbh ... but not as clear on FH.

@00:45 ... slow motion FH ... his hand path towards ball/right net post, court target ends up being down the middle.

I wonder what hand path we should strive for with non-flip FH?

 

[J011yroger]

Good afternoon sir Jolly. My question is with hand path going to the left. This place is confusing ... one thread says pull hand left and Jolly says toward target. Obviously our hand goes to the left at some point in a tennis swing. I am going to assume your "toward target" comment is for flip FHs (probably not same for McEnroe fh). We all want good extension ... whatever that is exactly. When I watch Fed slow motion FHs ... I see hand/butt cap go toward ball, but not necessarily court target location. For example ... check Fed FH @00:45 below. Looks like his hand goes toward ball ... but turns left before contact (we all know it has to because swing goes around ... even low to high swings).

The reason for my "huh" is Dragy's original FH video would have past my test of good fh swing ... I'm trying to see difference between his first video and then the wall. I know what good extension is on my 2hbh ... but not as clear on FH.

@00:45 ... slow motion FH ... his hand path towards ball/right net post, court target ends up being down the middle.

I wonder what hand path we should strive for with non-flip FH?

Ok, on that forehand he is hitting slightly cross court, you can see the difference easily because the very next ball he hits straight or slightly inside out.

So on the :45 ball he gets his hand outside and under the ball then follows the line to the target as long as possible then once he hits full extension the arm wraps around to the left.

OP is trying to guide or carry the ball forcing pronation and prematurely pulling to the left.

J

 

[J011yroger]

Good afternoon sir Jolly. My question is with hand path going to the left. This place is confusing ... one thread says pull hand left and Jolly says toward target. Obviously our hand goes to the left at some point in a tennis swing. I am going to assume your "toward target" comment is for flip FHs (probably not same for McEnroe fh). We all want good extension ... whatever that is exactly. When I watch Fed slow motion FHs ... I see hand/butt cap go toward ball, but not necessarily court target location. For example ... check Fed FH @00:45 below. Looks like his hand goes toward ball ... but turns left before contact (we all know it has to because swing goes around ... even low to high swings).

The reason for my "huh" is Dragy's original FH video would have past my test of good fh swing ... I'm trying to see difference between his first video and then the wall. I know what good extension is on my 2hbh ... but not as clear on FH.

@00:45 ... slow motion FH ... his hand path towards ball/right net post, court target ends up being down the middle.

I wonder what hand path we should strive for with non-flip FH?

Non flip is even straighter because you don't cover the ball as much. The outside to inside or inside to inside is minimized.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Ok, on that forehand he is hitting slightly cross court, you can see the difference easily because the very next ball he hits straight or slightly inside out.

So on the :45 ball he gets his hand outside and under the ball then follows the line to the target as long as possible then once he hits full extension the arm wraps around to the left.

OP is trying to guide or carry the ball forcing pronation and prematurely pulling to the left.

J

Do you think the hand/butt cap towards ball is a "always" on flip FHs ... regardless of court target? Not everyone would have the same size flip/lag ... but I could see hand towards ball being a common element. I have never heard that said here ... and before I dropped conversion to flip FH, I never had that thought.

 

[J011yroger]

Do you think the hand/butt cap towards ball is a "always" on flip FHs ... regardless of court target? Not everyone would have the same size flip/lag ... but I could see hand towards ball being a common element. I have never heard that said here ... and before I dropped conversion to flip FH, I never had that thought.

Yes, it's a bit more sophisticated than that but obviously your hand has to go to the ball.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, it's a bit more sophisticated than that but obviously your hand has to go to the ball.

J

1) hand to ball
2) then racquet head extends toward target

Jolly and BBP new tennis methodology ... $ 50/50%

 

[Chas Tennis]

Not much angular separation of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips. 'Separation' is an indicator of how much the abdominal and trunk muscles are stretched for the forehand.

Compare to Djokovic in a match when he is hitting a big forehand.

Djokovic is more flexible than most ATP players so take care of your back with your trunk twisting.

 

[J011yroger]

1) hand to ball
2) then racquet head extends toward target

Jolly and BBP new tennis methodology ... $ 50/50%

Lol, the Jolly method is coming together nicely. I don't know if it works or what to do about it but it looks and sounds fantastic.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

Your swingpath is wrong, you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target but you are instead pulling your hand to the left.

Also you are forcing the pronation/windshield wiper with your arm. That's the path to injury and inconsistency.

J

"you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target"

Do any of these forehands from another thread accelerate the hand in the direction of the target? Where? Are the hand and racket paths, as seen from above, nearly circular?

OP's topic

Overhead view of the forehand of Frank Salazar's forehand.

Federer forehand from above.

Toly composite video of Federer forehand. Remember that if objects move across of up and down in the frame the video can be more accurate but if an object moves toward or away from the camera accuracy is lost. (Think of a bullet going straight up or down in the frame and then across the frame. Now think of the bullet coming directly toward the camera, no movement in frame it gets bigger....)

Serena Williams forehand stop on 53 and 1:00 displays of wrist and racket angle.

Will Hamilton forehand from above camera view.

They look as if the hand goes in a circle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp6EgRqLMSo

Does this have to do with circular vs linear forehand techniques?

Is there video evidence for thinking that the racket or hand paths in the highest level tennis are in the direction of the target?

Are players taking words like 'in the direction of the target' as an instruction?

 

[J011yroger]

"you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target"

Do any of these forehands from another thread accelerate the hand in the direction of the target? Where? Are the hand and racket paths, as seen from above, nearly circular?


They look as if the hand goes in a circle?

Does this have to do with circular vs linear forehand techniques?

Is there video evidence for thinking that the racket or hand paths in the highest level tennis are in the direction of the target?

Are players taking words like 'in the direction of the target' as an instruction?

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

J

Very interesting. The picture is from a Toly composite video.

Also, the Toly video of Federer in the linked thread of post #46 shows what appears to be a straight line in a similar part of the hand path. (blue dots)

Will look at the high speed videos.

Issues -

1) Salazar Movement. The Salazar video shows that he was moving considerably to the left (see his head position) while stroking. What affect is that movement to the left having on the straight line? Is he adjusting the hand for a straight line while moving?

2) Toly's Composite Process. The Toly's composite process- using Photoshop layering I believe - does not move the hand once recorded in a composite picture. In the Salazar video, what effect is that having on estimating the hand path as circular or linear?

3) Hand No Longer on Straight Path Around Impact. In the Salazar picture, the hand is no longer on a straight path already when the racket head is still about 2 feet before impact with the ball. The forces of the arm restraining the hand cause that inward acceleration, and produce a circular hand path. Other more conscious forces cause the forward acceleration.

4) When is 'in the direction of the target'? It may be a personal understanding of mine, but for all 'in the direction of the target' comments I have always assumed that they applied to the orientation of the racket face over an increased range around impact, not well before impact. This is why I worry about ' toward the target' as a bad instruction. I don't see 'toward the target' around impact in any of the forehand videos in the post #46 linked thread. In fact, around impact the racket face orientation is changing very rapidly and so is the hand path. Your instruction does not specify when 'toward the target' applies.

5) Serena Williams Forehand Hand and Racket Paths. The Serena Williams Toly composite video is also linked in post #46 and shown. She may have been stationary and the stroke appears to have a more circular hand path. But I have to view the video itself to see her rotation and movement.

6) Linear vs Circular Forehand Technique Issues. If you have a more linear forehand that may allow a different hand path than the circular forehand techniques in the videos. ? See Dan Brown forehand video "I'm on your side". But the upper body seems to do a similar turn linear or circular technique. ?

 

[Dragy]

Thanks for comments, guys! I'll work with it further on. Meanwhile, being a poster, not a voiceless lurker, I'll address and argue now:

lack of reps?
your shadow swings look great (ie. what you're trying to do)

Lack of reps is what they say. Actually, I don't get reps in a well-set conditions, like hand feeds -> general feeds/ball machine. I play matches, I hit CC and other drills with some partners (who are ok with a bit of practice, not warmup-and-match only players), and I have the wall. My shadow swing is here for at least 1.5 years. Though never transferred when the ball was introduced. I beleive the yesterday's wall hitting was the first time I consistently got my arm staright at slot and further into the swing, thanks to some concious focus.

seems like you just need to hit alot more balls,... specifically focusing on a consistent racquet face during the swing, on a variety of balls... as well as establishing more consistent movement (footwork) that give you better spacing relative to your contact point (you jam yourself from time to time)
but i think that all gets sorted out after a few million more balls.
to me, what you're trying to do seems right (unit turn, pat the dog, wieght xfer, low to high swing, etc...)
if there's any one critique is that your footwork should be more actively trying to fight for the ideal contact... but maybe you're still struggling with recognizing wher ethe ball is gonna be, so you don't know where to move to...
but again, that's just seeing alot more balls.

I've been more or less happy through the winter season with my baseline forehands. Struggled a tad with shorter balls. But generally ok. Then the red clay came in with the warm season and a 1-day tourney full of junkballers finished the disaster. I got back to self-analisys. I mean, I've seen many balls, I guess. Or look the other way - very few in a progression from controlled conditions to rallying to playing...
As for being jammed, my recent find is that for me it's not the spacing which is responsible. At one point I just tried some easiest drop feeds and genle shots for nothing but good spacing (straight arm) + sweetspot contact. I failed until I started hitting earlier, out in front. And now if I manage to get the in-front contact, I'm good. My feel for spacing and footwork can do that, but if I let the ball fly more than optimal... have to tuck elbow in to get stringbed on it.

some things to try... drop feed yourself 100 balls (force yourself to take at least 3-4 steps away)... swing out.... with good shape, see where the stroke breaks down... can you hit a high % of those balls in, with good spin, shape, etc...
then try a ball machine
etc...

Definitely worth. Did a couple of times at the wall.

Your swingpath is wrong, you should be accelerating your hand in the direction of the target but you are instead pulling your hand to the left.

Also you are forcing the pronation/windshield wiper with your arm. That's the path to injury and inconsistency.

J

I'm into the accross hitting as per @5263! It just doesn't work the other way in my world. However, you might got caught by a number of my hits where I pulled it to the left when jammed to still hit the ball, namely struggled with higher contacts when my ball approach was bad.
For WW - I do use ISR intentionally and more pronounced on some shots, which prooved useful for closing the RF and bumping up spin for shots like dipping passers. And it's injury-safe contrary to pronation. Meanwhile, once again, there are number of shots in the video where I do WW as a last second save being jammed. Not good. For most shots I don't add on any WW, and most wall shots felt like "let go" into contact.

That's much better. If you want good wall practice use that line that comes straight out from the wall and hit along it. That will get your hand accelerating to the target because if you don't then the ball won't go straight. The goal is to hit the ball on one bounce and have it come straight back to you without needing to move left or right hardly at all.

The other thing you should do is put a piece of tape or a mark on the wall 3' over the height of the net and aim for it. This will teach you how to correct.

It will be frustrating at first but the more you do it the better you will get at it.

J

Yeah nice focus ideas. I generally try to keep the shot line (there could be 4-5 people hitting this side of wall same time). It's just that I was really into timing and swing sequence, straightening my arm, uncoiling early, having that first segment of the swing low to get a spinnier shot (re-inventing this for my game, got too flatty slappy recently)) and releasing smoothly into the contact. Really don't want to mix in too many things at a time.

Not much angular separation of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips. 'Separation' is an indicator of how much the abdominal and trunk muscles are stretched for the forehand.

Compare to Djokovic in a match when he is hitting a big forehand.

Djokovic is more flexible than most ATP players so take care of your back with your trunk twisting.

Thanks for comment, familiar with the idea. It's a bit a subject of intensity. I've been very gentle with those hitting focusing on form. You're referring Djoko matchplay, meanwhile... I'll look for this later, when I have an intense hitting filmed.

 

[Dragy]

Do you think the hand/butt cap towards ball is a "always" on flip FHs ... regardless of court target? Not everyone would have the same size flip/lag ... but I could see hand towards ball being a common element. I have never heard that said here ... and before I dropped conversion to flip FH, I never had that thought.

Having noticed how this is important to you I used my compilation mad skills to create this:

Notice how differently the racquet can move in the first segment (registered!) of the forward swing: Nadal going for more spin gets his hand lower and, therefore, closer to the body. So the swing direction has steeper outward path than the one DelPo produces for a flatter shot - this guy starts swings much more from behind the ball. Now at contact they are almost mirror images. Follow-through will take them apart again.