Tennis in post-World Cup city

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Having noticed how this is important to you I used my compilation mad skills to create this:

Notice how differently the racquet can move in the first segment (registered!) of the forward swing: Nadal going for more spin gets his hand lower and, therefore, closer to the body. So the swing direction has steeper outward path than the one DelPo produces for a flatter shot - this guy starts swings much more from behind the ball. Now at contact they are almost mirror images. Follow-through will take them apart again.
"Important" to me might be a stretch since I dropped flip and the micro ;) backswing ... but I am curious.

It would look like both players/pics support the fact (regardless of swing plane or hand position/spacing at back of slot) that hand travels on path to ball for a while. You can't really check it for sure without the frames aong the path.path

If we just think logically about a flip fh it seems to be this:
1) hand starts on path to approaching ball from slot, butt cap forward
2) before contact hand moves left, racquet rotates around hand to bring racquet head to contact

Basically hand starts like it is going to hit the ball, but then racquet head replaces hand on the line to ball contact.

I have to admit I am confused on Jolly's swing hand to court target. It seems to me the line is always the ball, and stance and muscle memory flip/stance/racquet face variations produce the path of ball. It's like the 3 ball extension swing thought would be through the line of ball (ends up being right net post area) ... but then natural forces of circular swing ... hand path, lag release, racquet face squaring up, internal muscle memory micro adjustments based on zillions of reps ... happens. :D No wonder tennis is hard.

I find the 2hbh much simpler to observe/understand extension. We can pull up picks of Djokovic, Nadal with the non-dom arm fully extended toward net in follow through. When I am hitting my targets the best, and with easiest pace ... my swing thought is exactly what Jolly said. I feel like I am swinging/reaching for target with my left arm/hand. I know that doesn't really happen ... again swings are circular ... inside out towards contact and arm/hand/racquet forced to swing around.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
We can pull up picks of Djokovic, Nadal with the non-dom arm fully extended toward net in follow through.
Here you go:

Funny, it was not that easy to pick one DelPo FH with full extension - he tends to bend his arm early after contact. Or maybe his contact is less in-front? Nadal - take any non-heli finish:
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Meanwhile, This extension is after the arm+racquet accross movement (the ball flies along the center service line):
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Here you go:

Funny, it was not that easy to pick one DelPo FH with full extension - he tends to bend his arm early after contact. Or maybe his contact is less in-front? Nadal - take any non-heli finish:
Your pic grabbing skills are getting good. You accused me of thinking "statically" once ... don't catch that illness. ;)

fyi ... bent arm at contact should be illegal on all strokes accept dom arm on 2hbh.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
You accused me of thinking "statically" once
Did I? Shame on me.
It's just where the chat developed to. In motion, extension woud stand for not slowing down the arm and not bending it prematurely. If one really tried hitting through several balls, every next one would be hit closer to the tip. Moving forward through the swing mitigates this to some extent (as well as 3 balls flying fast towards the stringbed).
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Very interesting. The picture is from a Toly composite video.

Also, the Toly video of Federer in the linked thread of post #46 shows what appears to be a straight line in a similar part of the hand path. (blue dots)

Will look at the high speed videos.

Issues -

1) Salazar Movement. The Salazar video shows that he was moving considerably to the left (see his head position) while stroking. What affect is that movement to the left having on the straight line? Is he adjusting the hand for a straight line while moving?

2) Toly's Composite Process. The Toly's composite process- using Photoshop layering I believe - does not move the hand once recorded in a composite picture. In the Salazar video, what effect is that having on estimating the hand path as circular or linear?

3) Hand No Longer on Straight Path Around Impact. In the Salazar picture, the hand is no longer on a straight path already when the racket head is still about 2 feet before impact with the ball. The forces of the arm restraining the hand cause that inward acceleration, and produce a circular hand path. Other more conscious forces cause the forward acceleration.

4) When is 'in the direction of the target'? It may be a personal understanding of mine, but for all 'in the direction of the target' comments I have always assumed that they applied to the orientation of the racket face over an increased range around impact, not well before impact. This is why I worry about ' toward the target' as a bad instruction. I don't see 'toward the target' around impact in any of the forehand videos in the post #46 linked thread. In fact, around impact the racket face orientation is changing very rapidly and so is the hand path. Your instruction does not specify when 'toward the target' applies.

5) Serena Williams Forehand Hand and Racket Paths. The Serena Williams Toly composite video is also linked in post #46 and shown. She may have been stationary and the stroke appears to have a more circular hand path. But I have to view the video itself to see her rotation and movement.

6) Linear vs Circular Forehand Technique Issues. If you have a more linear forehand that may allow a different hand path than the circular forehand techniques in the videos. ? See Dan Brown forehand video "I'm on your side". But the upper body seems to do a similar turn linear or circular technique. ?
I'm sorry, is this a list of things you are going to look into or did you have a specific question for me?

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Here you go:

Funny, it was not that easy to pick one DelPo FH with full extension - he tends to bend his arm early after contact. Or maybe his contact is less in-front? Nadal - take any non-heli finish:
The more to the right you make contact the sooner your elbow bends post contact, otherwise it would be a slap.

J
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
The more to the right you make contact the sooner your elbow bends post contact, otherwise it would be a slap.

J
Nah, doen't bother me. It bends in the follow-through normally when arm slows down. It was just a notice that said to be flatter hitter DelPo extends less ultimatively than Nadal.
What bothers me is:
1) Bending the arm to meet the ball and stringbed with desired orientation - seems to be product of mistimed, late swing and trying to survive with not enough in-front contact.
2) Pulling the extended arm accross the body and making contact with still fully laid back wrist - seems to be product of mistimed, early swing and trying to keep the racquet plane facing the target longer to still hit the ball to the intended direction, not hook it to the left.

Both are tools for some situations and intensions, bud mark mistimed swings for routine strokes.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I'm sorry, is this a list of things you are going to look into or did you have a specific question for me?

J
I brought up some considerations for the issue of the straight hand path toward the target.

Each one needs some more thought. Serena's stoke is well shown in another Toly video. It looks circular.

I'd like to hear any comments you have on each point.

The toughest issue for you is that the hand is curving away from a straight line and reorienting the racket as it does, well before impact. I said that my interpretation of 'racket face on a line to the target' has always been racket face through a range around impact, not well before.

It looks like a lot of work to work on the Salazar video.

It is interesting because I still have the thought to move the racket face on a line around impact. But the Serena stroke does not show any of that. See the racket angles shown as lines at the end of the video. Interesting because 'toward the target' may not be true with the current high level circular forehands. ?

It might be true for you especially if you have the linear forehand technique. Too bad getting high speed video from above is so difficult.
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
Filmed a practice set today, so can keep thread posted :rolleyes:
Wall-hitting form doesn't transition easily into points play ... but what clearly distinguishes this from my previous videos is I'm now wearing my cap backwards!
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
When I look at this 240 fps high speed video for the angle between the forearm and racket leading to impact, I see more angle than in yours. This rapidly changing angle, of course, develops racket head speed from ISR so it is essential. This video has the camera aligned with the ball's trajectory (azmuth).
To do stop action single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. Look at the shadows at the elbow to directly see ISR (lasts 1/4 sec as played back and maybe around 28 milliseconds in real time).

Your video is not high speed, the racket head is out of the frame and the camera is aligned with the court center line, not the ball's trajectory. Motion blur is small, a big plus. At low frame rates (25 or 50 fps?) the camera should catch only one frame (25 fps) randomly from each serve that corresponds to the frames, ISR leading to impact, in the high speed video. In other words, you can look at a lot of your serves and see if you can find the crisp forearm to racket angles shown on the high quality slice serve shown above. I looked at several and think this is an issue for your serve. There is also similar a kick serve in my Vimeo videos.

An alternate approach is to put 3 or 4 tape markers (each different color or shape) around the upper arm just above the elbow and video close enough so that you can directly see the ISR and racket head. Put some tape markers on your wrist band also. With a slow camera frame rate you would have to repeat serves and get one frame per serve.
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
Hey Chas, hope you're well!
The video is 60fps. Yes, I do look into my serves every now and then, though not working on it in current period. I've been noticing the angle I get. My grip and and wrist are pretty loose through the motion. Here's myself compared to Nicky Ki hitting a 132 mph serve.

Makes me believe my racquet-arm angle is "in range" and maybe not a major issue for my serve. I've been toying with gripping tighter (closer to hammer grip) and will maybe do it again and look for results.
By the way, have you elaborated any suggestions to address the issues you point out? Just when you call someone for lack of racquet-arm angle, what should they do?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Hey Chas, hope you're well!
The video is 60fps. Yes, I do look into my serves every now and then, though not working on it in current period. I've been noticing the angle I get. My grip and and wrist are pretty loose through the motion. Here's myself compared to Nicky Ki hitting a 132 mph serve.

Makes me believe my racquet-arm angle is "in range" and maybe not a major issue for my serve. I've been toying with gripping tighter (closer to hammer grip) and will maybe do it again and look for results.
By the way, have you elaborated any suggestions to address the issues you point out? Just when you call someone for lack of racquet-arm angle, what should they do?
You looked at angle at impact, that is one data point. But before impact, what angles were typical of your serves for the forearm-to-racket angle? The smaller the angle (for 90 d. and above) the more racket head speed is developed from ISR. Your angles might be large in my opinion, suggest that you check it out.

Compare videos from the same camera angle to a high level serve. Kinovea side-by-side video is perfect for this. You can put a protractor on the forearm to racket angle of the slice serve video that I supplied and do the same with yours. Accuracy is not so good because of 2D image of 3D space and ISR angle but if the camera angles are the same the comparison can be pretty good.

When the forearm to racket angle always seems larger (larger is toward 180 degrees) then I don't see how the racket head speed is developed as well. I can only have some confidence comparing two serves with high speed video from the same camera angles. Also, if the ISR is late relative to impact less speed will be developed.

If we had above camera view videos like the FYB ones we could look at ISR angle preceding impact much more directly.

Want ISR angle vs time and forearm-to-racket angle vs time before impact to evaluate ISR effectiveness on the serve. Actual angle measurements are difficult. Compromise, and do by comparison to high level serve instead of by actual measurements. There are other joint motions not considered.

Here is a view of Nick Kyrgious's serve looking along the trajectory.

Shows forearm-to-racket angle and good ISR timing. Compare this and the earlier slice serve. When the racket head is going directly away from the camera it minimizes the apparent motion of the racket head. Picture a bullet going directly toward the camera, it does not seem to move much......
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
Shows forearm-to-racket angle and good ISR timing. Compare this and the earlier slice serve. When the racket head is going directly away from the camera it minimizes the apparent motion of the racket head. Picture a bullet going directly toward the camera, it does not seem to move much......
Is this somehow related to my racquet-arm angle you brought up earlier?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Is this somehow related to my racquet-arm angle you brought up earlier?
Yes, you use this video to compare Kyrgios forearm-to-racket angles to yours.

To do stop action on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

Go to first frame that shows "0:06" sec. Move forward and back around that first frame at 0:06. Notice that all other motions seem almost still except the high speed racket motion caused by the ISR, moving the racket to the left and forward. Notice the angle between his forearm and racket. That is the critical ISR motion of the high level serve that you want to compare to your serve.

A protractor is not accurate due to the camera's 2D image of 3D space. But if you use the same camera viewing angles the apparent angle shown by a protractor will allow comparisons. Work with it. Demo it with the racket in your hand.

To compare your 60 fps serve clips to this high speed video - Now go and find all those forearm-to-racket angles among all your serves. Those would be a frame or two before impact from each serve. You are only recording about 1 frame for about every 4 frames that are in the Kyrgios video. I think that your angles will mostly be larger. Note that the faster the racket moves the less probably that you will catch it at a given position. But if you compare a large number of 60 fps frames, from the same camera angle and the serves are the same type and similarly performed then the forearm-to-racket angles should be the same at the same location of the racket.

You need that changing forearm-to-racket angle to develop racket head speed from ISR. Also, if ISR starts late, when the angle is larger, that reduces racket head speed for the serve.

Of course, it is much better to have high speed videos for all serve videos. 60 fps is one frame every 16.7 milliseconds. One estimate for the time of ISR, start to impact, is about 30 milliseconds. Using 60 fps you only get one or two frames for each serve between the start of ISR and impact. One or two frames is what you are recording.

There are other joint motions contributing to serve speed that are not considered here.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Hey guys, what’d you say about these FHs?
Not very explosive.

Looks like you're "aiming" instead of hitting.

You look fairly young, and should be able to hit a much bigger FH than that, if that's your goal.

How hard can you hit your FH if you're not worried about it going in the court?
 

Morch Us

Professional
The best tactics I have for you is "ball tolerance". Check the number of hits in each rally, and you are playing on clay (which is supposed to have a lot bigger rally count). Too much unnecessary change of directions causing uncontrolled situations for you and also creates unforced errors. Also this does not allow you to get comfortably consistent with your shot depth and spin.

Have a bit more patience to keep the ball in the same direction and adjust the shots (if the last shot was a bit too short, adjust it a bit so that it goes deeper, without adding any other variable like change of direction).

Obviously I am not saying never change directions. Just saying have a bit more patience, and when you change direction, have a purpose.


Would be nice if you could, apart from technique flaws' pointers, share some insight to tactics
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Yes, you use this video to compare Kyrgios forearm-to-racket angles to yours.

To do stop action on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

Go to first frame that shows "0:06" sec. Move forward and back around that first frame at 0:06. Notice that all other motions seem almost still except the high speed racket motion caused by the ISR, moving the racket to the left and forward.
Almost still may mean something different to different people, but even at 1 frame +/- there's elbow straightening. Followed by full arm swing forward towards and through contact (simultaneously with ISR and wrist ulnar deviation and whatever is also there).
Notice the angle between his forearm and racket. That is the critical ISR motion of the high level serve that you want to compare to your serve.
<...>
I think that your angles will mostly be larger.
I did look onto my serve and I didn't observe significant difference in racquet-to-arm angle.

But my main question remains without answer. What's your suggestion for those who wants to reach smaller angles in that part of serve? How?
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Not very explosive.
There're 2 resposes to this. First, related to the latter video, I was practicing an exagerrated backswing a coaching guy suggested, so likely not maxing out swing speed. Not slowing down too much though. Also the swings I see in this video are definitely not the ones I'm after, fundamentally different. And although I believe I picked some useful stuff from the practice, I won't keep this form.

Also, I'd say I'm more of a fluid type guy rather than explosive. Would you call DelPo explosive? Not compared to me but to ATP top players?
How hard can you hit your FH if you're not worried about it going in the court?
I hit it over the opponent's back fence at times, flat ascending trajectory.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
There're 2 resposes to this. First, related to the latter video, I was practicing an exagerrated backswing a coaching guy suggested, so likely not maxing out swing speed. Not slowing down too much though. Also the swings I see in this video are definitely not the ones I'm after, fundamentally different. And although I believe I picked some useful stuff from the practice, I won't keep this form.

Also, I'd say I'm more of a fluid type guy rather than explosive. Would you call DelPo explosive? Not compared to me but to ATP top players?

I hit it over the opponent's back fence at times, flat ascending trajectory.
Oh, I didn't catch the note about the exaggerated backswing and not using max swing speed.

How tall are you?

DelPo's Thorhand is definitely explosive! But, the mechanics are different when you're 6'5". Most of those tall guys have very fluid swings (Khach, DelPo, Anderson). Compare to guys under 6'0" with a good FH like Rios, Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian, etc - they seem more explosive to me because they're trying to generate high RHS with a shorter lever arm.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Almost still may mean something different to different people, but even at 1 frame +/- there's elbow straightening. Followed by full arm swing forward towards and through contact (simultaneously with ISR and wrist ulnar deviation and whatever is also there).

I did look onto my serve and I didn't observe significant difference in racquet-to-arm angle.

But my main question remains without answer. What's your suggestion for those who wants to reach smaller angles in that part of serve? How?
The smaller forearm to racket angle is there at the Big L, it's around 90 d. As that angle rapidly increases and the angle of ISR starts and continues to impact and beyond these two angles show a signature to a video camera. Here is that signature.


You have captured all the frames of all your serves leading to impact involving ISR? And they appear to be similar/very similar to Kyrigios's serve frames of the same type serve regarding the forearm-to-racket angles and how they progress to impact? Is that correct?

I would then look for ISR timing by elbow shadows. That will be hard to see and time with 60 fps and 16.7 milliseconds between frames that are captured at random times. And the serves may vary in performance or technique. High speed video is probably required to see ISR angle vs time.

If those are both very similar using your 60 fps data I'd suggest that you then get high speed videos of your serve and view your serve and a high level serve side-by-side. If still similar then you can't get any useful feedback (differences) from high speed videos. If no differences then you would have a high level serve.

But maybe some easy pickins would be in the feedback comparison. For example, ISR might start very late and only rotates 35 d before impact (instead of, say, 80 d.). Or other observations.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Almost still may mean something different to different people, but even at 1 frame +/- there's elbow straightening. Followed by full arm swing forward towards and through contact (simultaneously with ISR and wrist ulnar deviation and whatever is also there).

I did look onto my serve and I didn't observe significant difference in racquet-to-arm angle.

But my main question remains without answer. What's your suggestion for those who wants to reach smaller angles in that part of serve? How?
Make contact lower.

J
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Oh, I didn't catch the note about the exaggerated backswing and not using max swing speed.

How tall are you?

DelPo's Thorhand is definitely explosive! But, the mechanics are different when you're 6'5". Most of those tall guys have very fluid swings (Khach, DelPo, Anderson). Compare to guys under 6'0" with a good FH like Rios, Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian, etc - they seem more explosive to me because they're trying to generate high RHS with a shorter lever arm.
Well, I didn't make that note actually. The cue felt contradictory to my beliefs, but still thought -why not try and see what happens? Then I filmed it as it was to show here without any comments, just to listen to what guys tell with clear minds.

I'm 6'2". Does this look different to you:
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Not bad, still pulling to the left too much.

J
I think what I hit there is close to this:
Actually, I don't see me pulling to the left more than she does. However, that's not my model to follow...

As I thought about your pulling left comments, I have one idea. Unless I focus on this, I tend to swing from both below and behind the ball, while looking at men with steep low-to-high swings I noticed the swing starting closer to the body and developing outwards towards the contact until pivot point. Me setting up to have the racquet come from almost directly behind the ball makes me pull to the left to get the stringbed hit the ball as my arms rising closer to shoulder level and getting farther from the body. If I focus on outwards swingpath I won't need that correction. Or flattening out the swing may mitigate that as well. Or you can just call it "get better spacing". Anyway, should try.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Well, I didn't make that note actually. The cue felt contradictory to my beliefs, but still thought -why not try and see what happens? Then I filmed it as it was to show here without any comments, just to listen to what guys tell with clear minds.

I'm 6'2". Does this look different to you:
What % swing would you say you are hitting there? i.e. how close to "full power"?

It just looks like to me in your videos that you're leaving a lot of power on the table!
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
What % swing would you say you are hitting there? i.e. how close to "full power"?

It just looks like to me in your videos that you're leaving a lot of power on the table!
You want him to hit max power against a wall? Whaaaat? Are you messing with Dragy? If so ... ok ... sounds fun. :D
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
You want him to hit max power against a wall? Whaaaat? Are you messing with Dragy? If so ... ok ... sounds fun. :D
Good point about not hitting max against the wall, but in the points video he posted, is just didn't look to me like he was trying to hit the ball that hard.

So just curious from his perspective, how hard does he feel like he's hitting, and how much is still in reserve? Potentially very big FH!
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Good point about not hitting max against the wall, but in the points video he posted, is just didn't look to me like he was trying to hit the ball that hard.

So just curious from his perspective, how hard does he feel like he's hitting, and how much is still in reserve? Potentially very big FH!
Got it ... just let me know when we are messing with Draggy's mind. I will help ... I have skills in that area.

I agree with your point ... "come on 6' 2" dude ... time to hit that big fh we see lurking in your body/stroke". He needs to step up that fh like Curious. :D
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
@IowaGuy I cut some harder forhands from today's reel, check the video.

@J011yroger as far as my opinion goes it's more a footwork, ball judgement and adjustment issue for me. I do well when I manage to get to ball in good posture. I do better on hard courts. Now better footwork for me currently would be higher intensity footwork. While toning down swing speed makes me slower (as tones down general intensity of my performance). Moreover, what I feel and see on tape, slower swings don't get me to better consistensy. Surprisingly (or not) swinging explosively produces good shots consistently if I mange to get to ball properly. While the latter is achieved with more or less same frequency no matter how slow or fast the swing is. I possibly can bump up consistency bunting the ball weakly, but that's not the good route. I guess my best bet would be maxing my footwork intensity to find and protect the contact point (as per @nytennisaddict) and keeping swing intensity at ~70% not slowing it purposefully any lower.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Open court season abruptly ended in Moscow since Sept 23 - it's now 10-15deg C and rainy. Done. Finita. Meanwhile indoor court prices spiked - my favorite location fares 1.5x times more for prime time than it was last year. ~$37. Taking into account economic growth of 0-2% anually... Why?!!!

To keep my fellow tt crowd informed and enterta... well, it's a boring video. Some hand feed forehands being work in progress. Critics?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Open court season abruptly ended in Moscow since Sept 23 - it's now 10-15deg C and rainy. Done. Finita. Meanwhile indoor court prices spiked - my favorite location fares 1.5x times more for prime time than it was last year. ~$37. Taking into account economic growth of 0-2% anually... Why?!!!

To keep my fellow tt crowd informed and enterta... well, it's a boring video. Some hand feed forehands being work in progress. Critics?
(To me 'hand feed' has meant to take a ball in your hand, bounce the ball and strike it. Or if a coach tosses a ball in front of you.)

Your strokes look good enough that evaluation would best be done using a model forehand and comparing side-by-side videos. Kinovea is a free open source program and it easy to use. It have many capabilities for video analysis. You can use Kinovea to select individual frames, add graphics and text and save the image.

Kinovea forum thread with Version 8.26.
http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=854

One issue is to compare your separation between the line of the shoulders and the line of the hips.

I use Version 8.25. Here is a side-by-side one hand backhand comparison.
Single frame on Vimeo - hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. When trying to advance single frame, sometimes on Vimeo it will skip frames, especially for side-by side videos. But the original video works fine on my computer.

You can measure shot speed by how many ball diameters the ball travels.
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
using a model forehand and comparing side-by-side videos.
I don't model any exact player. I look into many of the best figuring out key fundamental similarities and checking the instructions/ideas I pick from numerous sources against them. Modeling a serve being hit from one same setup every time is ok. Modeling groundstrokes hit from different balls with different intentions seems partially useful, at best. However I've been comparing myself to Fed, Nadal, Zverev, Cilic, numerous times looking for significant deviations and trying to explain them.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For stroke technique issues, my approach is to look for what a high level player does when they are not pressured and when they want to hit very heavy pace, i.e. their best shots. Practice often is lower intensity but if high pace practice might be OK.

It is difficult to estimate angles. For example, what is your maximum separation angle. 30 d? 15 d? When does maximum separation occur? I believe that I may have seen, as a recommended maximum separation, 30 d or 20-30 d. But that angle would best be estimated from a camera view from above - we never have that.

Can't measure 3D space from a 2D video? Then the practical solution is to compare similar strokes from similar camera angles. If you can get near identical camera views you can compare and see if you are doing about the same amount of separation vs time.
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
For stroke technique issues, my approach is to look for what a high level player does when they are not pressured and when they want to hit very heavy pace, i.e. their best shots. Practice often is lower intensity but if high pace might be OK.

It is difficult to estimate angles. For example, what is your maximum separation angle. 30 d? 15 d? When does maximum separation occur? I believe that I may have seen as a recommended separation, 30 d or between 20-30 d. But that angle would best be estimated from a camera view from above, we never have that.

Can't measure 3D space from a 2D video? Then the practical solution is to compare similar strokes from similar camera angles. If you can get near identical camera views you can compare and see if you are doing about the same amount of separation vs time.
I think a good forehand separation discussion belongs here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/shoulder-turn-and-shoulder-hip-separation-not-much-in-neutral-stance-fhs.627433/
@ByeByePoly was after it.
Now back to my forehands, I won't look into this at current phase working on some different things which are more relevant to my development. We can look if I get separation angle when I film open stance forehands.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Open court season abruptly ended in Moscow since Sept 23 - it's now 10-15deg C and rainy. Done. Finita. Meanwhile indoor court prices spiked - my favorite location fares 1.5x times more for prime time than it was last year. ~$37. Taking into account economic growth of 0-2% anually... Why?!!!

To keep my fellow tt crowd informed and enterta... well, it's a boring video. Some hand feed forehands being work in progress. Critics?
That's it ... that's the easy pace that should come from your wingspan with good rhythm. We can talk about technique all we want ... but show me good pace that looks effortlessly and you have to be doing most of it right imo.

I was a Ferrer type rec player ... that is not how you should play. You should think rec version of Del Potro ... your future is not running around like a rabbit (be glad for that). More consistent (can't be clearing the shrubs and fence ... wtf :eek:) ... with put away pace when presented. That is your future ... I see it clearly. OK ... yeah, on 2nd cup of coffee. :p
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Re-opening this private chamber, got a hitting session recorded and analyzed with SwingVision App. Here are all forehands of a full hour, minus some warmups I cut in the beginning... Kind of meditative to watch yourself in such a reel :rolleyes:
Intensity and quality ramps up a bit towards the end, so click through (y)
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Re-opening this private chamber, got a hitting session recorded and analyzed with SwingVision App. Here are all forehands of a full hour, minus some warmups I cut in the beginning... Kind of meditative to watch yourself in such a reel :rolleyes:
Intensity and quality ramps up a bit towards the end, so click through (y)
Single frame use Period & Comma keys. To select YT video always use Alt + Left Mouse Click, otherwise the video starts playing.

Compare separation and all other sub-motions.

In many forehands, Djokovic shows a lot of separation and his range of motion may be too much for many players. Greater separation may be too stressful for your body. ?
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Re-opening this private chamber, got a hitting session recorded and analyzed with SwingVision App. Here are all forehands of a full hour, minus some warmups I cut in the beginning... Kind of meditative to watch yourself in such a reel :rolleyes:
Intensity and quality ramps up a bit towards the end, so click through (y)
Smooth ... I think those FHs are smooth enough to fall asleep to ... move over sheep. 8-B
 
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