TENNIS Magazine: Federer Semi-Western

R

rbowser

Rookie
Yeah, yeah, I know nobody really cares, but I've seen and participated in many posts relating the topic about RF'S Forehand grip. Some say eastern like Sampras, others semi-western. Many others like me say he uses a sort of 'hybrid', a mild-semi western or an extreme eastern. Near the end of the eastern grip, and extremeley close to the semi western bevel. Tennis magazine states he uses a semi western, and that does makes sense, where the the semi-western is a very versatile grip. BUT, why does Federer continue to hit more flat than spinny shots, even on clay?
FO06_HL1.jpg

Look at the picture...isn't it like an extreme eastern?
 
I seen Federer use different grips at different times on the forehand, including the semi-western.
 
rbowser said:
BUT, why does Federer continue to hit more flat than spinny shots, even on clay??
Click to expand...

You're making a seriously wrong assumption if you think his shots are flat.

Other than Nadal and possibly some guys like Andreev, he is producing more top spin (off both wings!) than anyone I have ever seen.

When he get's up to a low short ball and hit's it for a winner, the amount of top he puts on that ball is ridiculous.
 
His index base knuckle seems to be dead center behind the racket, eastern??
I am surprise he really does use eastern.
 
mucat said:
His index base knuckle seems to be dead center behind the racket, eastern??
I am surprise he really does use eastern.
Click to expand...

If you think Federer's knuckle is dead center behind the raquet in the pic above, please get your eyes checked. This has been discussed on the forums many times, and from all the reserach i have compiled (very little but its an educated guess), i would have to say that Federer 80% of the time uses a grip in between the eastern and the semi western.
 
How about someone finds a picture of him actually swinging at or making contact with the ball instead of his transition from neutral, which could have been a continental or some other grip.

It's like arguing about his grip while he's walking to the court with his racket.
 
There are slow mo videos of Fed hitting on Youtube. He seems to use a few different forehand grips, but I'm sure he's got one that he sticks with for baseline rallies. On some videos, he even seems to hit forehand returns with a continental grip. Usually, it looks like something between an eastern and semi-western.
 
Wow, nice calves Roger! Some of Roger's strokes are very flat, and than other times he whips a whole lotta topspin on. Bottle Rocket, I know what your talking about- those shots are sweet.
 
On his returns, Federer uses a pure eastern 3 / 3. (Index knuckle and heel pad on 3rd bevel.)

On his forehand it's a 3 1/2 / 3. This his index knuckle has shifted down to the edge between 3 and 4. This seems very consistent in several hundred forehands that I've looked at.

I've heard it said that he uses different grips on different forehands, and probably everyone's grip slides around somewhat at times. But I've been unable to find any clips or stills that show any shift that would substantially change the above definitions.

What confuses people about Roger is two things. First he has a conservative grip but combines that with the hand and arm rotation associated with extreme semi-westerns. In fact, he turns his hand over in more varied ways than probably any other player.

That's what makes him a genius. It's a new synthesis of technical elements.

The second point is about spin.

His forehand are averaging 2700rpms. That's compared to Sampras or Agassi at below 2000rpm. It's as much as Roddick. Nadal for reference is the highest at about 3500rpms.
 
TENNIS_IS_FUN said:
If you think Federer's knuckle is dead center behind the raquet in the pic above, please get your eyes checked. This has been discussed on the forums many times, and from all the reserach i have compiled (very little but its an educated guess), i would have to say that Federer 80% of the time uses a grip in between the eastern and the semi western.
Click to expand...

Easy there, big fellow on the internet. I was going to agree with you after looking at it again. But after looking at it more and more, the racket was not complete parallel with the surface of the pic. It is difficult to judge where the knuckle is in the pic (I even enlarge it 5x). I do know Federer use EE to SW grip, that why I said I was surprised by the pic.

One more thing, I notice I hold my grip more pistol than he does in the pic.
 
If you want to see how much Federer's forehand has changed, watch some clips back when Roger played Sampras and Agassi in his teens.... And no Roger is using the same grip he has always been using, its how he rotates the racquet face over the top of the ball on the follow through that makes the swing path resemble a more extreme grip than it really is, its still a variation of an eastern grip. Call it extreme eastern, modern eastern etc.
 
Lol. Almost every player hits spinny shots. I just said they feel flat compared to other topspin ppl like clay courters. His shots don't bounce nearly as high. And for the picture, he's preparing for a forehand....WHAT ELSE?!? He's going to hit a backhand like that. :? Yes, he might change grips, and his shots are very spinny, since he needs to keep it in play.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
How about someone finds a picture of him actually swinging at or making contact with the ball instead of his transition from neutral, which could have been a continental or some other grip.

It's like arguing about his grip while he's walking to the court with his racket.
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Again, same thing....when you start your takeback, would you or DO you suddenly change your neutral grip, which sometimes could be your forehand grip, to whatever grip you need? What your saying is true, that we should get a pic on contact, but this is a close as I can find. Someone really needs to stand behind him and take several pictures when he's hitting forehands. :D The takeback is definitley for the forehand side, I was just surprised because it does make sense kinda using semi-western on clay, but it's actually EE, so it's close enough.:p
 
the tiny diff in the grip angle isn't that important. The form of the swing and stance make it special. IMO
 
There have been hundreds of video clips filmed of his forehand, that are on various instructional sites.

I know those are not for free, but for those you have looked at them, it's clear that there aren't significant grips shifts going on.

As for the the trajectory, that is also an interesting point. With the modified eastern grip and heavy hand rotation, he can hit tremendous top spin and still hit in a flatter arc.
 
I watch federer play alot and rarely see him switch grips. I usually see him use the continental and the semi western. His forehand is special though because he pronates the wrist after contact. He also hits reverse forehand while being on the defense especially getting to balls in the corners.
 
Mr. Sean said:
I watch federer play alot and rarely see him switch grips. I usually see him use the continental and the semi western. His forehand is special though because he pronates the wrist after contact. He also hits reverse forehand while being on the defense especially getting to balls in the corners.
Click to expand...

How could you clearly see him switch grips? Even live in person would be hard. Someone should just ask him, but again, he'd probably say, 'i dunno'. We all know he has one of the best and versatile forehands in his game, but the question is his grip. How often does he use continental? It's basically for volleys and his return of serve. We'll never be sure..yet I don't know why I care so much. It's just that I read all these things that are complete opposite of each other.
 
JohnYandell said:
On his returns, Federer uses a pure eastern 3 / 3. (Index knuckle and heel pad on 3rd bevel.)

On his forehand it's a 3 1/2 / 3. This his index knuckle has shifted down to the edge between 3 and 4. This seems very consistent in several hundred forehands that I've looked at.

I've heard it said that he uses different grips on different forehands, and probably everyone's grip slides around somewhat at times. But I've been unable to find any clips or stills that show any shift that would substantially change the above definitions.

What confuses people about Roger is two things. First he has a conservative grip but combines that with the hand and arm rotation associated with extreme semi-westerns. In fact, he turns his hand over in more varied ways than probably any other player.

That's what makes him a genius. It's a new synthesis of technical elements.

The second point is about spin.

His forehand are averaging 2700rpms. That's compared to Sampras or Agassi at below 2000rpm. It's as much as Roddick. Nadal for reference is the highest at about 3500rpms.
Click to expand...



just a quick question about your terminology, do you mean the bottom, middle or top of his index knuckle?
 
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rbowser said:
Yeah, yeah, I know nobody really cares, but I've seen and participated in many posts relating the topic about RF'S Forehand grip. Some say eastern like Sampras, others semi-western. Many others like me say he uses a sort of 'hybrid', a mild-semi western or an extreme eastern. Near the end of the eastern grip, and extremeley close to the semi western bevel. Tennis magazine states he uses a semi western, and that does makes sense, where the the semi-western is a very versatile grip. BUT, why does Federer continue to hit more flat than spinny shots, even on clay?
FO06_HL1.jpg

Look at the picture...isn't it like an extreme eastern?
Click to expand...

I agree it looks like an extreme eastern to me too.
 
I thought he used Extreme Western. LKike he hits with the side of the raquet facing away from the court, he just turns his wrist a lot :P

Naw I thought it was a Extreme Eastern to me, But I dont know much about this bevel/knuckle stuff
 
If u watch his Slow Mo videos u can see the spin he adds on the ball also look at how fast his swing is and compare it to others he has alot of swinging speed and alot of power so topspin is a must
 
The Gorilla said:
just a quick question about your terminology, do you mean the bottom, middle or top of his index knuckle?
Click to expand...

What I think it means is that the base knuckle of the index finger ("X" on the crappy diagram below) is placed at the "bottom" of panel 3 on the grip instead of being centered on that panel, so that knuckle is on the edge between panels 3 and 4.


(side view of grip panels. "X" indicates placement of base knuckle of index finger, "H" indicates placement of heel of hand)


-------------------

panel 2
-------------------

H panel 3 x- Eastern FH
------------x-Extreme Eastern FH
H panel 4 x-SW FH heel & knuckle on 4
-------------------
 
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Anyone else notice that in the majority of the videos of him hitting forehands, he hits the ball near the bottom of the frame?

That seems to add even more to the effect of him "rolling over" the ball after contact.

I guess he realizes the advantage of the less extreme grips when playing defense. It also allows him to hit incredible pace without any sort of grip change, while also getting extreme top spin.

He's a great argument against all these western grippers (including myself).

You know, people say not to copy the pro's. In the case of Federer, what's the downside?
 
FiveO has it right.

The index knuckle is on the edge or ridge between 3 and 4. Even with the smaller handle he uses, the bulk of his heel pad is on (or behind) bevel 3. The last pic above shows that perfectly.

There are actually 6 distinct grips that are used widely on tour. This is why it's worth it to learn to understand the bevels. Terms like semi-western are almost meaningless at this point.

In thinking about it, I believe I can explain why so many people think Roger uses different grips. This is because he comes back to a neutral grip after every shot. So at the start of the shot he is always shifting his grip, either to his forehand, his backhand or his backhand slice.

Yes, he starts off every forehand shifting his grip. BUT that doesn't mean he is changing from one forehand grip to another. Rather from he is shifting from his neutral grip to his forehand grip--the same one he uses on all balls. Make sense?

That neutral grip is the same grip he uses for his forehand return. It's a 3/3. That's the same grip Sampras used for his basic forehand.
 
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rbowser said:
Yeah, yeah, I know nobody really cares, but I've seen and participated in many posts relating the topic about RF'S Forehand grip. Some say eastern like Sampras, others semi-western. Many others like me say he uses a sort of 'hybrid', a mild-semi western or an extreme eastern. Near the end of the eastern grip, and extremeley close to the semi western bevel. Tennis magazine states he uses a semi western, and that does makes sense, where the the semi-western is a very versatile grip. BUT, why does Federer continue to hit more flat than spinny shots, even on clay?
FO06_HL1.jpg

Look at the picture...isn't it like an extreme eastern?
Click to expand...
Christ look at his legs. I think Federer changes his grip for certain shots. By the way just because he hits flat shots does not mean his grip is not western. Federer hits a fair amount of topspin on everyone of his shots. He's not like a Nadal or Adreev who hit massive amounts every forehand.
 
J-man if that picture is your definition of a western grip, we are looking at the world differently. (Which is OK.)

You've got 3 bevels on the forehand side (4 if you want to count any version of continental that might involve bevel 2) plus the edges between them. Then you have the 2 anchor points of the heel pad and index knuckle.

Mathematically that's a few possibilities.

To be full western would be a 5/5. Even Nadal isn't quite that far under.
 
The "downside" question is also quite interesting.

Federer's grip is the grip of genius--and the grip of the masses.

The downside at the pro level is that the ideal contact height for a 3 1/2 / 3 is between the waist and mid chest. Perfect for club players up through 5.0's.

But in the pro game the ball is a LOT higher on most balls. Turns out that's also true in high level national junior tennis. Or college tennis.

So with the Federer grip you either have to explode off the court all the time to raise your contact point--or move way way back--or like Fed, play the ball somewhat on the way up a lot of the time.

That's really tough to do, which is why you see most pros, players who are phenomenally talented, still go underneath on the grip. It puts more high balls in your strike zone which is chest to shoulder with a grip say like Roddick's.

By the way here's a free Tennisplayer article from the May issue on the Easter Bowl that deals in part with the grip issue in junior tennis:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/..._bowl_2007/easter_bowl_2007_page1_public.html

We also put up quite a few free stroke files of some of the players there. These are all boys, with the girls coming soon:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/future_stars/future_stars_public.html
 
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Bottle Rocket said:
You know, people say not to copy the pro's. In the case of Federer, what's the downside?
Click to expand...
The problem for everyone else is that Federer has Agassi like talent in taking the ball on the rise and takes it one step further. When he chooses to he has the inhuman ability to roll the racquet face over the top of the ball to generate extreme spin, from his non extreme grip and swing path. Not to mention when he takes the ball on the rise, he hits it with so much pace and accuracy you can feel his opponent just give up.

The ability to do that on a consistent basis against the best in the world is a once in a lifetime talent, yep its just genius. Something that really can't be copied by everyone successfully, but we can try and fail and admire it.
 
The interesting thing is you can have Federer's grip or even Sampras's or Henman's which are pure 3 / 3 without having to use the (extreme) hand and arm rotation.

In the pro game, you bet, taking the ball early with this grip is the mark of the supernatural. But many club players would probably gain by going away from more extreme semi-westerns and hitting thru with the racket face more on edge--the traditional eastern type finish.

Again this is because the balls they are hitting are not at the contact height or hit with the pace and heavy spin of the pros, the top juniors, or college players.

That doesn't they can't use open stance and some hand and arm rotation when it fits, as it often does. They definitely should. But grip corelates most closely with (average) contact height in successful players at all levels.
 
alan-n said:
The problem for everyone else is that Federer has Agassi like talent in taking the ball on the rise and takes it one step further. When he chooses to he has the inhuman ability to roll the racquet face over the top of the ball to generate extreme spin, from his non extreme grip and swing path. Not to mention when he takes the ball on the rise, he hits it with so much pace and accuracy you can feel his opponent just give up.

The ability to do that on a consistent basis against the best in the world is a once in a lifetime talent, yep its just genius. Something that really can't be copied by everyone successfully, but we can try and fail and admire it.
Click to expand...

I would be careful in saying that Roger has an inhuman talent to roll his racket face over the ball. If you go through the video I have of Federer on my homepage (http://www.hi-techtennis.com/), frame by frame, you can see how his his entire arm, from his shoulder to his forearm to his hand, are all working together to lift the ball and turn it. Any wrist movement he uses is in synch and in harmony with his forearm and arm.

If anyone just rolled the racket face, the ball would go straight to the ground.

I agree with John that the genius of Federer is his ability to hit the modern windshield wiper with the Eastern grip. It's an incredible merging of two styles that allow him to do things others can't.

I also don't think people understand how difficult it is to do what he does. There isn't just one movement that makes his forehand. It's the synchrony of the parts - the use of the hand, forearm, arm, shoulder combined with torso rotation, all timed together, that make his forehand what it is. You can try to copy one piece of his forehand, but it won't get you his forehand. I think this is the danger in trying to copy him. You have to get it ALL right to hit like him. Same thing with Nadal.
 
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JohnYandell said:
That neutral grip is the same grip he uses for his forehand return. It's a 3/3. That's the same grip Sampras used for his basic forehand.
Click to expand...


John, so you're saying that his returns are classic eastern? Or his actual forehand
? I think he only uses classic fer returns, but I would think continental, and even his Extreme Eastern. Still confuzzledジ
 
That picture shows semi-western but a little over towards eastern grip. A little in the middle of the two. 3/3 is correct.
 
John, so you're saying that his returns are classic eastern? Or his actual forehand
? I think he only uses classic fer returns, but I would think continental, and even his Extreme Eastern. Still confuzzledジ
Click to expand...


In today's game, there's no way you can switch your grip to whatever you please in a split second return of serve. especially with serves like Roddick. Continental grip is what most players tend to return with (if and when they don't have much time).
 
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The 3/3 grip is what he uses for sure on fh returns. He may wait with a slight shift toward the continental and then rotate slightly down--hard to see in the video clips. If it is a shift it's very slight but he definitely hits with a 3/3. He shifts of course for the backhand return.
 
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interesting. I would naturally imagine one doesn't have much time to think grip and just think return it and place it. Thanks I never really looked at that area.
 
I agree with John that the genius of Federer is his ability to hit the modern windshield wiper with the Eastern grip. It's an incredible merging of two styles that allow him to do things others can't.
Click to expand...

I love John's argument about Fed's mix and match between classic and modern elements. When Fed retires, I hope somebody picks his head into his philosophy on stroke technique and all that. Then again, he'd probably shrug and go "oh I learned it from Mirka!" :)

He reverses his racquet with an Eastern grip, which is a brilliant idea. This adds both spin rate and gives you a longer "pull line" (for accelerating the racquet), so you get an overall heavier ball without using a more extreme grip or changing your swing plane. In fact, reversing the racquet has perhaps a much stronger effect on the Eastern than other grips, because your forearm gets to pronate much farther (almost 180 degrees) so that the racquet edge is flipped upside down. This is something that most people can do to add spin and pace without messing with their stroke too much.
 
tricky said:
I love John's argument about Fed's mix and match between classic and modern elements. When Fed retires, I hope somebody picks his head into his philosophy on stroke technique and all that. Then again, he'd probably shrug and go "oh I learned it from Mirka!" :)

He reverses his racquet with an Eastern grip, which is a brilliant idea. This adds both spin rate and gives you a longer "pull line" (for accelerating the racquet), so you get an overall heavier ball without using a more extreme grip or changing your swing plane. In fact, reversing the racquet has perhaps a much stronger effect on the Eastern than other grips, because your forearm gets to pronate much farther (almost 180 degrees) so that the racquet edge is flipped upside down. This is something that most people can do to add spin and pace without messing with their stroke too much.
Click to expand...


He what?

Do you mean he hits a reverse forehand?
 
Ah, yeah, I'm being loose with terminology -- I meant inverting the racquet. Inverting the racquet is, when you , during the unit turn, flip the racquet face so that the racquet remains on edge, but upside down. Doing this also establishes a laid-back wrist.

If you use a SW or W grip and take back the racquet on edge, you already do this. It's a natural part of the stroke. If you use an Eastern or very conservative SW grip, you probably don't. Not considered a natural part of the stroke. To do with it an Eastern grip, you end up pronating your forearm so that your thumb turns around 45 degrees counterclockwise, which can feel uncomfortable. That forearm pronation is really the key, and it's only significant if you do this with a conservative grip.

Again, the advantages are two fold: more spin, and potentially more pace (thus an overall heavier shot) while keeping the same contact zone and swing plane of your current grip.
 
Pretty much. You have to rotate the hand and arm as a unit within the contect of the hitting arm structure.

In club tennis it's going to be on high balls, low balls, and angles, not necessarily every shot--but at high velocity it allows players like Roger (top the food chain) to generate as much spin as players with more extreme grips.

I think I noted above he averages the same forehand spin rates as Roddick.
 
tricky said:
Ah, yeah, I'm being loose with terminology -- I meant inverting the racquet. Inverting the racquet is, when you , during the unit turn, flip the racquet face so that the racquet remains on edge, but upside down. Doing this also establishes a laid-back wrist.
Click to expand...

Do you have any photos, or diagrams of this. I'm having a hard time visualizing. I'm mostly interested in the takeback and what you mean by the racquet remaining on edge but upside down. Do you mean the face of the racquet that is going to strike the ball is facing the ground during the takeback??

Thanks in advance
 
It'll work just like that?
Click to expand...

Yup. When it's done right, you now have an Eastern FH with the spin of a mild SW as well as a "longer line" to pull into the ball. In other words, not just a spinnier shot, but a heavier shot. All the other characterstics of your Eastern FH pretty much stays intact.

There's a bunch of neat biomechanical stuff involving SRCs and forearm pronation-supination-pronation, as well as how forearm affects potential laid-back position of the wrist . . . . but basically the idea is that Federer wants to "wind up" your forearm to the maximum during the unit turn. The more you wind up the forearm, the heavier your shot.

Inverting your racquet with an Eastern grip pretty much maxes out what his forearm will normally allow. And, as a result his Eastern FH is as heavy as can be without altering the swing plane itself.

Do you have any photos, or diagrams of this. I'm having a hard time visualizing.
Click to expand...

I'm probably, as usual, overcomplicating it. You can use this slo-mo clip of Federer as a reference. Basically, watch how the racquet turns 180 degrees while he's holding it with both hands.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/..._evolution_modern_forehand_articlesample.html

1) Initially, both hands hold the racquet on edge or perpendicular with the ground. Thumb up.

2) As he begins to turn his hip, he rotates the racquet 90 degrees so that the racquet face is now "facing" the net. Thumb sideways.

3) He rotates the racquet another 90 degrees as he's completing the unit turn. By the time he releases his left hand, the racquet is on edge but upside down. His forearm is fully coiled. Thumb down.

Things to check for once racquet is reversed at end of unit turn:
1) Is racquet on edge and upside down?
2) Is wrist laid-back?
3) Is racquet tip pointing forward at about 45 degrees?

From there, then you do your normal swing.
 
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