TENNIS Magazine: Federer Semi-Western

He reverses his racquet with an Eastern grip, which is a brilliant idea. This adds both spin rate and gives you a longer "pull line" (for accelerating the racquet), so you get an overall heavier ball without using a more extreme grip or changing your swing plane. In fact, reversing the racquet has perhaps a much stronger effect on the Eastern than other grips, because your forearm gets to pronate much farther (almost 180 degrees) so that the racquet edge is flipped upside down. This is something that most people can do to add spin and pace without messing with their stroke too much.

Since inverting the racquet (with an eastern grip) allows you to pronate and coil your forearm, are you saying it enables you to swing faster to generate more spin?
 
I've scanned through these posts and has anyone raised the notion that this picture is likely a service return, which would in effect negate a lot of the discussion. Look where he is standing, getting ready to hit a forehand on the far left side. Could be an inside-outie, but looks like a service return to me. Like one poster said, even the great Federer most likely cannot shift his grip and probably uses a straight Eastern for returns, and IMO closer to a SW for his groundies.

For the guy who said this is the grip of genious, and of the future...forget about it. Go try it. 90% of the other top 20 men use a more extreme SW or W, and there's a reason for that-they are closer to mortals than Fed.
Fed's grip is an abberation these days....
 
is Federer just taking his racquet back with the racquet face facing the ground like Sampras, but unlike Sampras maintaining this position while laying back the wrist?
 
I've scanned through these posts and has anyone raised the notion that this picture is likely a service return, which would in effect negate a lot of the discussion. Look where he is standing, getting ready to hit a forehand on the far left side. Could be an inside-outie, but looks like a service return to me. Like one poster said, even the great Federer most likely cannot shift his grip and probably uses a straight Eastern for returns, and IMO closer to a SW for his groundies.

For the guy who said this is the grip of genious, and of the future...forget about it. Go try it. 90% of the other top 20 men use a more extreme SW or W, and there's a reason for that-they are closer to mortals than Fed.
Fed's grip is an abberation these days....

Yes, you are probably right, yet it's genius. Look at the posts above, he uses the eastern, or extreme eastern (not clear, SOMEONE CLARIFY) to return. I mean, if you look at all his forehand pictures, it's too eastern to be semi-west or western, but not close enough to continental that his index is completley on bevel 3. It's at the close end.
 
The analysis that I did of the grips is based on looking at several hundred video clips. That picture does however, show his groundstroke grip, the 3 1/2 / 3. I call that an extreme eastern, but ultra mild semi-western, or hybrid could describe it. It's square in between Sampras and Agassi.

The point is that terminology can be confusing. It's easy to say that's "eastern" or "semi-western" but because there are up to 4 possible bevels and 2 anchor points involved in the forehand grip, that's not sufficiently precise.

When you study pro forehands you can see that there are actually 6 different grips that are commonly used--from Heman to Nadal and everything in between.

The quote by the way was not "grip of genius, grip of the future." The point was basically the opposite. "Grip of genius, grip of the masses."

The various semi-western versions are dominating pro tennis, but as is discussed in some detail above, the grip (if not all the swing components) is well-suited for the contact height of balls that most players face.
 
Since inverting the racquet (with an eastern grip) allows you to pronate and coil your forearm, are you saying it enables you to swing faster to generate more spin?

So, basically, there's two issues:

As you know, the topspin issue really is about hand rotation. The larger the arc, the more the hand rotates through the hitting zone. Thus the more topspin you can generate without altering the swing plane of the hitting arm.

There's various variables that influences the size the arc. The degree you coil/pronate the forearm in the unit turn is one of them. Depending on grip, most WWers pronate forearm about 45-90 degrees, so that the racquet is first established on edge. Because Federer is inverting his racquet with an Eastern grip, he's getting close to 180 degrees. This is of the techniques he uses to increase the effective arc of his hand rotation.

Typically, the forearm supinates and pronates (i.e. the supination-pronation cycle) through the stroke of a swing. At the transition point between backswing and forward swing, the forearm has to supinate in order to open up racquet face properly. And then, the forearm naturally pronates through the forward stroke as you finish the stroke. That pronation facilitates hand rotation.

The more your forearm has to supinate, the more it will pronate. By precoiling the forearm during the unit turn, you basically force your forearm to supinate a lot more in order to open up the racquet face. And that in turn means you'll get more pronation through the forward swing and therefore more hand rotation. More topspin.

The second issue, the pace, is influenced by the laid-back position of the wrist. Because the above technique causes the forearm to supinate more to establish hitting position, your wrist will also naturally be much further back in the hitting position. A more laid-back wrist means you now have a "longer" line to accelerate the racquet before it comes around. It's effectively the same as increasing your arm extension in the unit turn to increase the swing arc. BUT, you get this without changing the arm structure of your stroke.

As a result, racquet head speed goes up too. And because you're using an Eastern grip, most of that speed goes into increasing pace on the ball. As a result, you now have a heavier shot.

Federer isn't the only one who does this. Sampras and Scud did something similar, as did Laver. Safin inverts his racquet with a conservative SW .

is Federer just taking his racquet back with the racquet face facing the ground like Sampras, but unlike Sampras maintaining this position while laying back the wrist?

Federer's backswing really deserves its own thread. My hunch is that, through watching videos or learning from his Aussie coach, he ended up modeling his swing after Laver, albeit with modern WW mechanics. There's mechanical things that Laver uniquely did in his stroke, which are also seen in Fed's stroke.

And, in fact, you can argue that the Federer FH is really Laver 2K.
 
Last edited:
I see you really made the backswing thread. I read all the stuff about it. i saw the FO finaln today and say that Rafa's and Roger's forehand kicked pretty high, around five foot something since they're like 6'1" and it went near their ears. I know the clay is a huge factor, but how do you produce so much topspin? If Fed really uses the easternish grip, and you say he uses a backswing similar to of a western, does that help you with adding more spin?
 
If Fed really uses the easternish grip, and you say he uses a backswing similar to of a western, does that help you with adding more spin?


Fed's backswing superficially resembles a Western-style swing, but the mechanics of it are different by virtue of his forearm rotation. Same applies for Nadal -- HIS swing may resemble Verdasco's or Bruguera's, but his mechanics are very different as well. His backswing is really most like Federer's. It *looks* like he arms or muscles the ball, but he's mostly taking advantage of the "jet pack" it provides for free. His arm kinda goes along for the ride.

With that said, Yandell has a great series of articles making a persuasive argument that Federer's FH -- in general -- uses a lot of extreme elements more common with Western grip players.

The most "practical" thing he does is to invert his racquet. That alone, without changing any of your actual stroke mechanics, increases both spin and pace. Everybody already comfortable with the WW swing ought to try it out.

His sometimes straight-arm forward swing gives his hand more freedom to rotate. Roughly, a straight-arm forward swing Eastern grip will gives you the same amount of hand rotation as a moderate SW grip swung with the elbow tucked. This is a difficult swing, though.
 
I've been reading many posts, especially the backswing post. I thought I understood supination and pronation, but I don't. I mean, you say counter clockwise, and clockwise, I kinda get it, but still doubtful.
Ok: here are my examples: when you say you pronate or supinate, do you turn your forearm to the right if you're a righty, and if you keep going, does your palm open? Give simple examples to help me understand, because I understand everything besides these two terms!:-(
 
For the right-hander:

Pronation = Palm closes / Left / Thumbs down / Counterclockwise / Lock the door

Supination = Palm opens / Right / Thumbs up / Clockwise / Open the door

When in doubt, remember that pronation is what you do at the end of your serve. Supination is the opposite of that.
 
If you think Federer's knuckle is dead center behind the raquet in the pic above, please get your eyes checked. This has been discussed on the forums many times, and from all the reserach i have compiled (very little but its an educated guess), i would have to say that Federer 80% of the time uses a grip in between the eastern and the semi western.

Agreed. His "bread and butter" is a the so-called "Strong Eastern". But, he does change based on the situation. 80% with this grip is probably a good guess.
 
On his returns, Federer uses a pure eastern 3 / 3. (Index knuckle and heel pad on 3rd bevel.)

On his forehand it's a 3 1/2 / 3. This his index knuckle has shifted down to the edge between 3 and 4. This seems very consistent in several hundred forehands that I've looked at.

I've heard it said that he uses different grips on different forehands, and probably everyone's grip slides around somewhat at times. But I've been unable to find any clips or stills that show any shift that would substantially change the above definitions.

What confuses people about Roger is two things. First he has a conservative grip but combines that with the hand and arm rotation associated with extreme semi-westerns. In fact, he turns his hand over in more varied ways than probably any other player.

That's what makes him a genius. It's a new synthesis of technical elements.

The second point is about spin.

His forehand are averaging 2700rpms. That's compared to Sampras or Agassi at below 2000rpm. It's as much as Roddick. Nadal for reference is the highest at about 3500rpms.

Interesting post. Thanks
 
The other important point to note about Feds f/h is the fact that he hits the ball with the racquet face at a 31 degree angle. That's why his stroke looks flat, and yet the ball spins. It's explained in more detail in "Technical Tennis".
 
You are correct about the racket angle--but it's true on only a percentage of balls. Others (most) are square or very close. The tilt is also less on others with 30 degrees being an extreme.

That video clip came from our high speed footage that Rod and I had been debating. At a certain ball speed, ball height, swing plane, and swing speed it'll work.

Not sure it's something conscious Roger does in those situations however--in fact it's undoubtedly a matter of feel.
 
Back
Top