Tennis needs to introduce a zero tolerance doping policy

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Testing isn't problematic that is just it. The interpretation and execution of what happens with the result is problematic (i.e. ignoring the result, or favoring one player or country over another, or hiding the result). That is the problem. The testing isn't problematic.
Testing is problematic if the results are inconsistent and I believe they are.
 

Jonas78

Legend
This is my last reply to you. In order...

1. Very easily. My words were "drive over the limit". If you didn't know the limit, then you could not form an intention to drive over it. You're still getting a fine.

2. You're responsible for what is stored in your apartment. It doesn't matter how it got there. You are presumed to control the space. You're getting a fine.

3. When you state that Sinner's physio massaged steroids into his open wounds, you are reproducing the testimony of Sinner and his team. The ITIA tribunal found their story plausible. It's still no more than their testimony.
I have never said doping shouldnt be punished, nor have i said i believe Sinner. They have presented a plausible explanation, his physio has confessed, and experts say its possible. Apart from that i dont have a clue if its a cover up or not.

Im only saying there should be mitigating factors if you have a positive test, and im saying that neither strict liability or banning players for life will solve the problem.
 
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The boundary may be arbitrary, but all that tells you is it's important how you draw it. It reflects your values, priorities and so on -- like any other boundary. It's certainly not subjective, unless we draw it poorly ie. "PEDs are things that make you feel funny". Fortunately, we can and do draw it with reference to objective criteria.

I agree the techniques will likely be ahead of detection. That no reason to endorse cheating.
You can make objective "criteria" for what constitutes "PEDs" but at the end of the day, the value of your criteria for "PEDs" will always be completely subjective and arbitrary because anything can enhance "performance" so choosing to ban some "performance-enhancing" substances over others makes no sense at all since every substance and drug has potential advantages and disadvantages. Moreover, there is no immorality of "cheating" associated with using PEDs because there is absolutely no moral reason to stop others from taking PEDs based on his or her own individual judgement.
 
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You can make objective "criteria" for what constitutes "PEDs" but at the end of the day, the value of your criteria for "PEDs" will always be completely subjective and arbitrary because anything can enhance "performance" so choosing to ban some "performance-enhancing" substances over others makes no sense at all since every substance and drug has potential advantages and disadvantages. Moreover, there is no immorality of "cheating" associated with using PEDs because there is absolutely no moral reason to stop others from taking PEDs based on his or her own individual judgement.
We agree that personal morality has nothing to do with it. The goal of anti-doping is to ensure fair competition. You might say we can achieve that by removing all restrictions on PEDs. I'd be inclined to agree. But I don't want tennis to become a joke like cycling. Like it or not, the idea of naturalness is important to our appreciation of sport. Hence why we wouldn't watch two robots go at it, or if we would it would be a different thing altogether. That's not a subjective value, but it is a cultural value. I would prefer to see what people can achieve without pumping themselves full of testosterone. I would prefer to see competitions won on the field, not in a laboratory. The latter would be interesting -- kind of like F1, but it's not the same thing.

The other issue is that if you open the sport to PED usage, then you're not just permitting it, you're more or less making it mandatory, because competing at the highest level of the game would require their use (maybe it currently does already). I don't want the barrier to entry for my children to be whether they're willing to inject themselves daily and brave the health risks that come with that Although maybe others are okay with that. I'd be interested in hearing that perspective spelled out.

Anyway, I like the direction you're taking the conversation. This is what it's really about.
 
There is legal doping and illegal doping. In reality, every athlete in the world is doping. Multivitamins and herbal supplements, protein bars and shakes, caffeine, electrolytes, even water at changeovers are all forms of doping designed to enhance and sustain performance. To be honest, some of the items on the banned list do seem to be arbitrary and unjustified, while others are nobrainers. There are also many legal products that enhance performance in such a way that they should be banned but they aren’t. So definitely doping lists are quite arbitrary.
You can make objective "criteria" for what constitutes "PEDs" but at the end of the day, the value of your criteria for "PEDs" will always be completely subjective and arbitrary because anything can enhance "performance" so choosing to ban and illegalize some "performance-enhancing" substances over others makes absolutely no sense at all since every substance and drug has potential advantages and disadvantages. Moreover, there is no immorality of "cheating" associated with using PEDs because there is absolutely no moral reason to stop others from taking PEDs based on his or her own individual judgement.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
WADA's governing body is composed of Ministers of Sport, or their delegates, from mainly Western nations. I don't think WADA is pro-Chinese or pro-Russian given its structure.

WADA is deeply corrupt. Tennis should not involve WADA in its anti-doping program. Tennis should refuse to participate in the Carrot appeal as well as refuse to enforce any CAS decision if WADA proceeds on its own. Tennis needs to find another way forward with anti-doping without WADA. An extra benefit of booting WADA is no more tennis wasting time with Olympics. (y)

“But when the agency, known as WADA, learned of the positive tests, top leaders did not crack down on China. Instead, they sidelined the investigative unit, choosing not to tell its investigators and analysts that the swimmers had tested positive, ensuring the matter would not be looked into any further.

The decision by the agency’s leaders to keep its own investigators in the dark raises new questions about WADA’s response to repeated incidents of possible doping by Chinese athletes.

And it creates new doubts about whether WADA meaningfully changed its operations and culture after its credibility was called into question by the discovery in 2015 that the agency failed to stop a Russian state-sponsored doping program that had operated without detection for years.”

Not incidentally, “Among the ways Chinese athletes were cheating, she said, was by taking undetectable amounts of a little-known prescription heart medication, trimetazidine, or TMZ, which can help increase stamina, endurance and recovery.” :sneaky:

 
We agree that personal morality has nothing to do with it. The goal of anti-doping is to ensure fair competition. You might say we can achieve that by removing all restrictions on PEDs. I'd be inclined to agree. But I don't want tennis to become a joke like cycling. Like it or not, the idea of naturalness is important to our appreciation of sport. Hence why we wouldn't watch two robots go at it, or if we would it would be a different thing altogether. That's not a subjective value, but it is a cultural value. I would prefer to see what people can achieve without pumping themselves full of testosterone. I would prefer to see competitions won on the field, not in a laboratory. The latter would be interesting -- kind of like F1, but it's not the same thing.

The other issue is that if you open the sport to PED usage, then you're not just permitting it, you're more or less making it mandatory, because competing at the highest level of the game would require their use (maybe it currently does already). I don't want the barrier to entry for my children to be whether they're willing to inject themselves daily and brave the health risks that come with that Although maybe others are okay with that. I'd be interested in hearing that perspective spelled out.

Anyway, I like the direction you're taking the conversation. This is what it's really about.
The thing is is that there scientifically and objectively is no such thing as "fair and equal competition". Every single individual has a different biological/genetic constitution so everyone will always have "unfair advantages" compared to other individuals. Whether or not that "unfair advantage" comes from natural unearned biological/genetic constitution or from PEDs is completely irrelevant to the fact that "unfair advantages" always exist no matter what between individuals which means that there is absolutely no such thing as "fair and equal competition". The only way to have athletic competition where participants do not feel pressured to take PEDs is not to attempt to ban all things considered "PEDs" since doping techniques always are a step ahead of anti-doping techniques, but to take away any incentive to take PEDs altogether by creating a sport where the majority of the "external rewards" such as money are given to the promotion and spread of the sport rather than to just pure competition.
 

LOBALOT

Legend
I think testing as it is is horrible. I don't agree with the word you said.

In what way? I am interested in hearing.

I think how we politicized it and let all these bogus excuses into the picture. The testing of itself is not the issue. Howe we use it is the issue.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
In what way? I am interested in hearing.

I think how we politicized it and let all these bogus excuses into the picture. The testing of itself is not the issue. Howe we use it is the issue.
For me it is personal. It is personal to me because at this time I am losing all interest in tennis. If Sinner is banned then I don't think I care about anything going forward. And the reason for this is that I think potentially the rivalry between Carlos and Sinner is the only truly fascinating thing that is going on right now. Well, I would add to that what Djokovic has done this year by winning the Olympics. So if he does very well in the Australian Open then I would be interested in that. But not if Sinner is banned because if Djokovic can win again to me it will be much less important with the number one player in the world prevented from competing.

To me whatever you say about the testing not being the issue is wrong to me because I think it is the only issue. It is the only issue because the testing is driving all of the controversy that is so important to tennis. I don't give a damn if in some other universe wiser people would be able to analyze the data in a saner manner. All I care about is it's not happening. It is a forking mess. And from where I sit it's not getting any better and it's probably getting worse.

It's just another way that this new social media world is driving people into two polarized camps. More than any time in the past we live in an era where people present things in a black and white manner. It happens in politics and it happens now in just about everything. I'm just sick of it. I also believe that most people who are talking about doping are really talking about who they like. You will find very few supporters of Sinner who don't say he is innocent. And you see a lot of people who don't like him who also want to see him driven right out of the game. How many people have you seen who simply say, I'm not sure what is going on and I'm willing to wait longer to make a judgment when and if we get more facts?

That's my position. Sinner could be innocent. Or he could be guilty as hell. Or anything in between. I don't know. What I do know is other players have gotten totally screwed in the past and have had their careers ruined. That's what sticks out to me. And all of this is driven by this testing. I absolutely despise the way they are doing this. I think they are screwing everything up. I think they don't know what they're doing.
 
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