Tennis "plateau" A level you reach and never improve.

Gael4

Rookie
Please. This is a textbook strawman argument. No one is saying that all top tennis pros are superhuman athletes (although probably a few are). YOUR argument is that any "average" athlete (with respect to natural athleticism) can become a top pro with sufficient training and mental coaching, etc etc. Most folks here are disagreeing with you and simply saying that you better start off with at least better-than-average (and preferably elite) natural athletic gifts if you want to succeed as a pro in tennis. This does not equate to a belief that "all tennis players are superhuman athletes." You're just making stuff up now.
Nope, that's not my argument. I guess that's a strawman for you too then.
Again, theiy may be gifted in skill or mental fortitude, as you can't really teach all of it. I'm saying that the level of fitness we see on the tour as of yet does not require any special talent. Special talent = superhuman = NBA.
 

thehustler

Semi-Pro
Comparing LeBron’s agility to Isner’s is basement level trolling.
Cool, focus on one part of what I've said, call it trolling and move on. What about the idea that Cilic is the only person 6'6" or taller to win a slam? LeBron is 6'8" I think. Maybe Isner would've been a world class basketball player had he gone that route. Maybe he'd be a stretch 4 or 5. Who knows. They play what they play. Basketball and tennis may have similar movements but they're completely different sports. One is a team sport, the other isn't. You can take a play or two off in basketball. Not every single posession is decided by you. In tennis it's you vs your opponent. Maybe LeBron moving side to side chasing a tennis ball would make him look ordinary, maybe not. Maybe Isner would be a HOF PF in the NBA. Would Usain Bolt be a great tennis player? Sure he's fast, but you can use speed against people.

In the end they all play what they play and What If is rather pointless, unless we can travel to a parallel universe and see them play a different sport.
 

thehustler

Semi-Pro
I think if you took any five great NBA players - like LeBron, Kobe, Harden, etc (take your pick) - and started them with world-class tennis training at a young age, a few of these guys would become top pros. Maybe not win Grand Slams or be top-20, but they'd be up there. They have all of the physical gifts, plus they work their ass3s off, plus they're mentally tough - beastly athletes. I'd bet on all five and be happy to be wrong on a few. (Compare the athleticism of Isner or Cilic or whomever as teenagers with that of these basketball players at the same age. It's just not the same.) For their size, pro basketball players are probably the best movers on the planet.
Not Harden. You can't flop to get a line call. :)
 

mdickson11

New User
Top Football Hockey Basketball players are better athletes than top tennis players as those sports are more demanding athletically. Also those sports dont require as much of an extensive time commitment and financial resources as the development of a tennis player. Tennis is more like baseball in terms of athletism. So genetic freaks ie Eric Lindros are more common place in sports like hockey football basketball. Rising to the top of tennis game requires a much longer and expensive development pathway as its just such a highly skilled endeavor and most players are eliminated on that basis that could have been very good tennis players whereas that elimination process is not so prevalent in other sports.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
Nope, that's not my argument. I guess that's a strawman for you too then.
Again, theiy may be gifted in skill or mental fortitude, as you can't really teach all of it. I'm saying that the level of fitness we see on the tour as of yet does not require any special talent. Special talent = superhuman = NBA.
I agree with you there. You can be an average athlete and get to the level of fitness required for pro tennis (which is high, but not superhuman). But, I don't believe you can be an average athlete (that is, one with average "athletic gifts") and have much of a chance at pro tennis no matter how hard you worked at it. I'd say "above-average" would be the minimum starting point in that regard. Do you disagree with that?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
There is a lot of generalization on this thread. I love basketball and think the top stars are some of the best athletes. But anyone who watches the NBA knows there are a lot of players, including top ones like Harden and Luka, who don’t move well laterally on defense. On offense both those guys who don’t have great jumping ability, run circles around the so called better athletes defending them. So it is not as if sheer speed or athleticism is always dominant in hoops.

Sampras trained with Charles Woodson and compared pretty well with NFL players. The big 3 are all comparable in their foot speed to Sampras though they might not have his hops. They probably all have more stamina than Sampras. You cannot just look at someone dunking and say that because the big 3 cannot do that they are inferior athletes. Hops is just one measure of athleticism.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Pat Etcheberry: Yeah, he was much, much faster than you think he was. I know this for a fact because when (Michigan cornerback) Charles Woodson won the Heisman Trophy (in 1997) coming out of Michigan, he came in and worked with me to get him ready for the (NFL) combine. At the same time, I was working with Pete at the time. A couple of times, I made them run and do some agility drills together and Pete stood right next to Woodson and did what Woodson could do.

Tennis Week: That's impressive because Charles Woodson was a great athlete.

Pat Etcheberry: Yeah and it showed that some of these tennis players are great athletes as well. A few of the football players said to me: "Hey, these tennis guys are a lot tougher than we think they are." They're on the court working out they're in the gym training and some of the tennis players are great athletes.

 

Gael4

Rookie
I agree with you there. You can be an average athlete and get to the level of fitness required for pro tennis (which is high, but not superhuman). But, I don't believe you can be an average athlete (that is, one with average "athletic gifts") and have much of a chance at pro tennis no matter how hard you worked at it. I'd say "above-average" would be the minimum starting point in that regard. Do you disagree with that?
Well of course I agree, I think I specifically said that in one of my posts. What makes the best tennis players special is not their physical ability (again, imo) but their skill and mental. It all started in response to a quote from Moratoglou who said that the most important aspect to be a tennis champion was mental toughness (or something like that).
 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
I'm done with this thread, but I'll speak my peace on the way out because @Gael4 chooses not to address my arguments. I've heard Tsonga, Wawrinka, and Raonic described as fat. Apparently, he's too young to know who John "Hot Plate" Williams was in the NBA. There are lots of fat basketball players, way fatter than these three cited. None of those three guys ever approached their peak performance with extra weight either, so it's actually a counter-argument.

Tennis players have to be able to compete for five hours, not an hour that's mostly stopped. You can't sub-out when your winded. Hell, you can't even compete at the top of the 60 year-olds in tennis without being supremely fit. I've watched fat 40 year olds school folks on the basketball court with long Js. I'm trying to get back into competitive tennis at 56 and the only thing holding me back is fitness. I could play competitive basketball right now. I've got teammates I can rely on to play D. I can just wait for the ball at the 3-point line and fire away. In tennis you only have yourself to rely on.

It burns my ass how little is understood about what it takes to be a top-level tennis player. Jesus, watch Messi and Ronaldo jog. I wish I could jog on the tennis court. Watch Lebron jog, when he should have been playing defense. There is no requirement to grind in a team sport the same way tennis players do. Please, will someone else go dig that ball out of the corner, I'm walking to the other side of the court and sitting on the next forehand I'm going to hit. Sheesh!
 
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Gael4

Rookie
Pat Etcheberry: Yeah, he was much, much faster than you think he was. I know this for a fact because when (Michigan cornerback) Charles Woodson won the Heisman Trophy (in 1997) coming out of Michigan, he came in and worked with me to get him ready for the (NFL) combine. At the same time, I was working with Pete at the time. A couple of times, I made them run and do some agility drills together and Pete stood right next to Woodson and did what Woodson could do.

Tennis Week: That's impressive because Charles Woodson was a great athlete.

Pat Etcheberry: Yeah and it showed that some of these tennis players are great athletes as well. A few of the football players said to me: "Hey, these tennis guys are a lot tougher than we think they are." They're on the court working out they're in the gym training and some of the tennis players are great athletes.

What you need to prove that elite level athleticism is not required in tennis is people who are successful without being elite athletes, not prove that there are no tennis players with elite athleticism.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
What you need to prove that elite level athleticism is not required in tennis is people who are successful without being elite athletes, not prove that there are no tennis players with elite athleticism.
You need to prove that. That was your argument.

I am saying the elite tennis stars are elite athletes too. Your argument was that they would not cut it in pro basketball. So I just showed some examples that there are elite basketball players who would would find it difficult to match the big 3s mobility and stamina.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Well of course I agree, I think I specifically said that in one of my posts. What makes the best tennis players special is not their physical ability (again, imo) but their skill and mental. It all started in response to a quote from Moratoglou who said that the most important aspect to be a tennis champion was mental toughness (or something like that).
What makes the best special is a combination of great physical ability, fitness, strokes, and mental toughness.
 

Gael4

Rookie
You need to prove that. That was your argument.

I am saying the elite tennis stars are elite athletes too. Your argument was that they would not cut it in pro basketball. So I just showed some examples that there are elite basketball players who would would find it difficult to match the big 3s mobility and stamina.
Don't know what to say, it's just simple logic. I'm tired of writing my argument over and over again and feel like I'm hijacking the thread. Just reread what I wrote.
 
Coaches absolutely get it though they don’t admit it openly.
Toscanini was said to have judged a piano competition. He scored most of the contestants 0 and a few were given 10s. When asked about his method, he shrugged and said "They can either play or they can't."

Toscanini wouldn't have been able to make a living as a tennis coach.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
That's because tennis requires much more than just athleticism. I simply disagree that they are even close to the level of fitness you see in many sports like basketball, football, rugby, american football, swimming, running, at the elite level. They are great athletes but not comparable, they are tremendously skilled though, so a top football or basketball player could never start tennis and be even half decent as a pro.
Gordon Hayward and Drew Brees both could have played pro tennis. Both are exceptional athletes - however if they played tennis people like you would have knocked their athletic ability and claimed they were just 'average.' Brees is well known for his junior tennis - and Hayward has a pretty serious tennis background as well - as is about a 5.0-5.5 currently.

There are a couple of positions in basketball and football which demand slightly better run jump athletes then you see in tennis... But this idea that hoops and football are full of far superior athletes then you find in tennis is simply nonsense. Tennis players stack up nicely - a big reason for this is simply numbers. The amount of men who have the height and muscle to play professional tennis is virtually all of them. Other sports have size/strength requirements so the competition is much smaller.
 

Gael4

Rookie
Gordon Hayward and Drew Brees both could have played pro tennis. Both are exceptional athletes - however if they played tennis people like you would have knocked their athletic ability and claimed they were just 'average.' Brees is well known for his junior tennis - and Hayward has a pretty serious tennis background as well - as is about a 5.0-5.5 currently.

There are a couple of positions in basketball and football which demand slightly better run jump athletes then you see in tennis... But this idea that hoops and football are full of far superior athletes then you find in tennis is simply nonsense. Tennis players stack up nicely - a big reason for this is simply numbers. The amount of men who have the height and muscle to play professional tennis is virtually all of them. Other sports have size/strength requirements so the competition is much smaller.
Obviously I'm not talking about people who did play tennis growing up too... As for 5.0/5.5 it is light-years from pro tennis
 

Bagumbawalla

Hall of Fame
I don't know if anyone mentioned this (I just sort of jumped to the end), but this idea of
a plateau reminds me, kinda, sorta, of the "Peter Princople), an idea that was popular in the 1970s.
The tag line is that "people rise to the level of their incompetence".

And, yes, we can see this in tennis- you are a thriving 3.5, having fun and getting the pick of teams
to play on, but then, you are bumped up into the 4.0s and you are a weak 4.0, and nobody wants you on their team,
and your game stagnates, and your spirit withers and dies.

Even in the pros, to an extent, we find people, with all kinds of talent, stuck in the low 100s.
And the reasons don't really matter (do they?)- too short, can't afford a good coach, don't have money for
travel, unwilling to change racket or style of play, personal problems/issues, other players are just better- whatever the reasons, everyone
except the #1 player finds him/her self stuck in a place (sort of Dantesque) from which the have no hope of rising.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Obviously I'm not talking about people who did play tennis growing up too... As for 5.0/5.5 it is light-years from pro tennis
Yeah but these guys aren't playing tennis anymore. Brees routinely beat Roddick as a junior... Hawyard is 6'6" and serves like Isner. If you watch Hayward play he is good but not super mobile compared to top tennis players. If we saw more NBA players and NFL players (dual sport guys) playing tennis you would realize that in comparison many tennis player are just as athletic.

Again its a numbers game - so many people are big and strong enough to play tennis - that each man competes with many more men for the big pay day.. NBA's athleticism is hugely exaggerated by the NBA. It's good marketing - but watching Charles Barkley play golf kinda shoots holes in that theory. FWIW volleyball players are often better leapers..

I say this as a pretty big NBA fan. Hate to break the news to people but James Harden is not in the same athletic class as Federer. He is far inferior.. There have been some superior athletes in the NBA like Allen Iverson - but that's the exception not the rule. Most of the guys are just really tall with some level of athleticism.
 
It can actually be a process that is much more efficient than you envision it to be. I've done it teaching classes at a major university ... where I would give a 20-minute presentation to the group ... and then 12-minute mini "privates" to each player ... over 5 weeks ... 10 classes ... for a grand total of $100 for each student ... ... ... I know ... OUCH ... how terribly GREEDY!

The solution is often not the total number of HOURS spent during each session ... but mere MINUTES of intelligently focused attention ... over a span of time.

The point is ... without "supervision" and proper "encouragement" ... players tend to revert to bad habits when a "conversion" to better technique doesn't immediately deliver evidence of quantifiable improvement ... when all they really need to do is mindfully stick with the progressive "program" of improving specific stroke components.

There simply ARE ... "valleys" ... between many (lower-to-higher) "plateaus"!

~ MG
I don’t teach, so I know nothing of what it would be like trying to help someone get better. I’d be the type that would say “your stroke sucks, forget everything you’ve been doing and do this.” I’d be afraid that someone would show up to the court with their terrible tennis game and tell people I was coaching them. It can’t be easy teaching tennis.
 
Football Hockey Basketball
Also those sports dont require as much of an extensive time commitment and financial resources as the development of a tennis player.
The Rossi’s beg to differ.

 

mdickson11

New User
The Rossi’s beg to differ.

What does that article say, I am too cheap to pay for it.

No arguing on football or basketball. Agree hockey maybe close as it's almost as highly skilled sport as tennis.

No doubt hockey requires extreme financial commitment and will be anomalies in both. Andy Murrays development cost was enormous in the millions but he was funded in large part by LTA (they paid $1m alone for Brad Gilbert to coach Murray) not sure if Murray had sponsors lined up before going pro. Most pro players are state sponsored or have deep pockets.

Cost to "turn" pro in hockey = almost nothing
Cost to "turn" pro in tennis = no clue but its lots $$$$$$$$$ ++++

Time required to get to pro level in tennis, most tennis players start age 4 to 6 and would be pretty much on court on regular basis all year right to pro.

Hockey players can start bit later and still go pro and typically do not play year round and maybe on ice much less than tennis players are on the court.

However I have not played hockey in a long time but I know the level of commitment in hockey is insane these days however I just can't see someone playing the hours in high level hockey like I see the hours high level juniors play tennis.
 
What does that article say, I am too cheap to pay for it.

No arguing on football or basketball. Agree hockey maybe close as it's almost as highly skilled sport as tennis.

No doubt hockey requires extreme financial commitment and will be anomalies in both. Andy Murrays development cost was enormous in the millions but he was funded in large part by LTA (they paid $1m alone for Brad Gilbert to coach Murray) not sure if Murray had sponsors lined up before going pro. Most pro players are state sponsored or have deep pockets.

Cost to "turn" pro in hockey = almost nothing
Cost to "turn" pro in tennis = no clue but its lots $$$$$$$$$ ++++

Time required to get to pro level in tennis, most tennis players start age 4 to 6 and would be pretty much on court on regular basis all year right to pro.

Hockey players can start bit later and still go pro and typically do not play year round and maybe on ice much less than tennis players are on the court.

However I have not played hockey in a long time but I know the level of commitment in hockey is insane these days however I just can't see someone playing the hours in high level hockey like I see the hours high level juniors play tennis.
Had to pay to see article? Anyway, his dad drove him 81.4 miles each way, six days a week from Rankweil, Austria to Kusnacht Switzerland for practice so he could train at a high level. Hockey not as big in Austria. Left after school, got home at midnight. Cost dad a couple of jobs along the way. Paid off as Marco went #9 in last NHL draft. One wonders why they didn’t move or find a host family closer to Kusnacht.
 

mdickson11

New User
Had to pay to see article? Anyway, his dad drove him 81.4 miles each way, six days a week from Rankweil, Austria to Kusnacht Switzerland for practice so he could train at a high level. Hockey not as big in Austria. Left after school, got home at midnight. Cost dad a couple of jobs along the way. Paid off as Marco went #9 in last NHL draft. One wonders why they didn’t move or find a host family closer to Kusnacht.
Link is asking me to pay and register maybe because I am in Canada. That's insane commitment for sure. Bit sad that at junior level tennis and hockey require so much money imagine all the kids that can't afford it.
 

Miki 1234

Rookie
most say its mental aspect that is most important, so probably concentration.
How to improve it this is the question.
Its not really possible if you are going to google it , you can get better but thats mostly consistency not quality. Longer not better concentration .Probably works same as IQ . Cant really raise it .
So you are left with average concentration against people with above average and even top lvl concentration like neo from matrix. From small edge right away to reading your game in long run .What now .
Well its easy do it until it makes sence to you.
.So you need to be carefull with this game .
 
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