Tennis Podcast Player of The year: Catherine Whitaker says Nadal, David Law-Fed/Nadal tie

[cc0509]

"Shut up already".

Losing your cool isn't a good look. Funny that the Djokovic fan on this thread with no axe to grind agrees that it's no big deal for a dominant world no.2 to still be capable of beating a dominant world no.1 regardless of age differential, yet the Federer fans insist it should be some mark of shame because Fed is 36. If Fed was what 36 used to be in tennis years, he'd be on the seniors tour right now instead of winning grand slams. The game changes. Players are now peaking in the early late 20's and 30''s (like Wawrinka) and teenagers are no longer capable of being dominant on tour. Fed still being a dominant player at 36 and Rafa still being a dominant player at 31 with so much milage on the clock is just part of that paradigm shift in the game which Federer bots refuse to acknowledge. Age literally ain't nothing but a number.

It's an incredibly dumb argument, and I won't be shutting up about how dumb it is.Sorrynotsorry.

The teenagers are no longer capable of being a force on tour because they aren't good enough. Plain and simple. Djokovic at age 19 or 20 was certainly good enough to be a force on tour. Nadal was a teenager when he won his first slam. Players like Zverev, Kyrgios, Shapovalov, etc. should be making a mark already or at least they should be doing so very soon. They should be taking it to Fedalovic.

As for age being just a number in pro tennis, that's also rubbish IMO. The only reason these older great players are still dominating is due to the fact that the younger players are incompetent. Djokovic and Nadal should not be losing to a five-six years older Federer at this stage of their careers IMO despite the better fitness of older players these days.

 

[Nishikorigoat]

This is the first time in the Open Era that two players have split all four Grand Slam events between them. Furthermore, the lowest ranked player between the two has beaten the other 4 times in 4 matches, has won more tournaments and has a better overall record. So determining the player of the season is not as straightforward as some want to believe.

The Majors are the most important events. The No.1 player out performed the no2 player overall in the biggest four events.

Rightly or wrongly legacies are not really defined at masters 1000 and below events. And if they were, then it must be noted that Federer is some way behind Nadal and Djokovic at that level.

 

[Nishikorigoat]

I think you could argue that Nadal's H2H with Djokovic is indeed respectable given that Novak has been by far his toughest matchup, just like I believe Novak has done well to be ahead of Federer(albeit slightly) as I've always felt Roger has the advantage in that rivalry due to his serve and variety even though some crazy Fed fans on here believe Novak should be leading by a huge deficit in the H2H simply because of the age difference lol.

Nadal has recently effectively suggested Djokovic at his best is the best the game has ever seen. Soderling reinforced that view. It's strange that Djokovic being absent for 6 months off tour seems to have enhanced his legacy.

I do wonder when these legends are long gone and pensioners whether the Djokovic Slam may carry far more weight than it does currently, it was practically airbrushed out of history when he actually achieved it. Time will tell.

One thing is certain , it's a waste of time arguing about goats when players are active. Much more objective many years after retirement when dust has settled and people are more neutral.

 

[Nishikorigoat]

It's not spin doctoring ya clown. If Fed was only 2 matches behind Nadal overall and was at least even in the slam H2H, then H2H no longer becomes much of a factor to separate them. It's too close, which I'm sure all the Federer puppets would happily point out.

The Djokovic H2H doesn' hurt Nadal"s GOAT claim. At all.

The Nadal H2H (for Fed), hurts Fed"s GOAT claim.

Learn the difference. I know nuance is an alien concept to some Fed fans, but really, it's a thing.

Nadal has a winning h2h v Djokovic at the Majors by some margin, that's the big issue. If their h2h was reversed and Nadal led overall but was 4-9 behind in the Majors then is goat claim would be damaged.

Best of five sets is the ultimate test. If it isn't then why have that format.

 

[Nishikorigoat]

Frustrated Nadal trolls like this one are only pushing their agenda because Federer won more than expected this year especially against Nadal. The desperation is starting to set in with them.

No offence but as a Nishikori fan who prefers players with double handed BHs but also truly admires Federer, in terms of desperation, from what I can see, it is Federer fans who have totally lost the plot since the USO if you look at other forums.

I think the goat debate is ridiculous when players are active but Federer fans do seem obsessed yet fail to recognise that by highlighting h2h in 2017 and elevation of masters 1000 events to same status as Majors that by doing so they are conceding Nadal is GOAT. Nadal has a vastly superior h2h and masters 1000 tally.

Best reaction would be to admit Nadal as player of the year but highlight the achievement of Federer in winning two majors at 36 and simply say let's see how Nadal does from this point forward.

 

[octogon]

The teenagers are no longer capable of being a force on tour because they aren't good enough. Plain and simple. Djokovic at age 19 or 20 was certainly good enough to be a force on tour. Nadal was a teenager when he won his first slam. Players like Zverev, Kyrgios, Shapovalov, etc. should be making a mark already or at least they should be doing so very soon. They should be taking it to Fedalovic.

As for age being just a number in pro tennis, that's also rubbish IMO. The only reason these older great players are still dominating is due to the fact that the younger players are incompetent. Djokovic and Nadal should not be losing to a five-six years older Federer at this stage of their careers IMO despite the better fitness of older players these days.

Jesus Christ, you are full of feces.

Both Nadal and Federer are "old" in tennis years and both are past their prime. Fed being a couple of years older means nothing other than he's still a great player. Nadal is not a player smack in the middle of his prime losing to some has been. It's the saddest and most pathetic argument I've seen from Fed fans. Fed and Nadal are multi millionaires with access to the most advanced medical science possible to keep them as fit as younger men. That has changed the game and it's not some minor point that can be ignored. Fed would not be playing at this level 20 years ago, because medical science would not have been at the level to allow him to.

As for the rest, read Nishikorigoat (another impartial fan who actually prefers Federer). The most telling H2H stat between Fed and Nadal is their slam H2H. Which Nadal will always own. Federer barely beat Nadal in best of 5 in a surface much more advantageous to his game. In slams, Nadal will always be favoured against Fed, because he's the greatest best of 5 player of this era.

As Nishikorigoat has pointed out, Fed fans have lost their mind since Nadal won the US open and blew the GOAT question wide open again

 

[Gary Duane]

Whitaker actually said Nadal barely edges out Fed and that she can see arguments for putting Fed ahead too. She also chastised Law for calling a tie and if he had to choose Law would have picked Federer. So no, most are not leaning towards Nadal. The facts indicate Fed was the best player of the year. Before you chime in about rankings....Wozniaki. It's irrelevant she didn't win a slam, she was #1, that's the bottom line. LOLLLLLL

Really? The facts say that?

 

[Gary Duane]

Fed and Nadal are multi millionaires with access to the most advanced medical science possible to keep them as fit as younger men. That has changed the game and it's not some minor point that can be ignored. Fed would not be playing at this level 20 years ago, because medical science would not have been at the level to allow him to.

Check out career stats for "short" Rosewall. You might have to question your assumptions about today, although I do not believe Federer would have been back in 2017 without miraculous surgery.

The most telling H2H stat between Fed and Nadal is their slam H2H. Which Nadal will always own. Federer barely beat Nadal in best of 5 in a surface much more advantageous to his game. In slams, Nadal will always be favoured against Fed, because he's the greatest best of 5 player of this era.

You are overlooking the fact that these two only played each other three times on grass, which is an obvious weakness in Nadal's record.

They are 3/3 off clay. In two of Fed's losses to Nadal he was the age of Nadal is right now, within a couple months.

In finals Fed is 3/4, off clay, in majors.

Only a fool would not see the amazing record of Nadal on clay, but when these two have met 13 times on clay in finals, and only 3 times on grass in finals, Fed's best surface, you have to be pretty prejudiced not to see that Nadal has not been around to challenge on grass.

That's how the fan bases operate. Fed fans want to say that clay is not important, and Nadal fans want to make it all about clay.

Fair would be somewhere in between.

As Nishikorigoat has pointed out, Fed fans have lost their mind since Nadal won the US open and blew the GOAT question wide open again[/QUOTE]

 

[octogon]

Rosewall was an anomaly in a much less physically demanding era of tennis.It"s not worth using that as an example of expected longevity in the modern game.


Players in the Sampras/Agassi era could barely drag themselves out of bed past the age of 29, they were in so much pain. Now chugging along after 30 appears to be the new normal.

Why Only use finals for slam H2H. They've played at other stages in slams off clay, and Nadal won those as well. TEN years Federer couldn't beat Nadal at a slam. That's incredible.

 

[cc0509]

Jesus Christ, you are full of feces.

Both Nadal and Federer are "old" in tennis years and both are past their prime. Fed being a couple of years older means nothing other than he's still a great player. Nadal is not a player smack in the middle of his prime losing to some has been. It's the saddest and most pathetic argument I've seen from Fed fans. Fed and Nadal are multi millionaires with access to the most advanced medical science possible to keep them as fit as younger men. That has changed the game and it's not some minor point that can be ignored. Fed would not be playing at this level 20 years ago, because medical science would not have been at the level to allow him to.

As for the rest, read Nishikorigoat (another impartial fan who actually prefers Federer). The most telling H2H stat between Fed and Nadal is their slam H2H. Which Nadal will always own. Federer barely beat Nadal in best of 5 in a surface much more advantageous to his game. In slams, Nadal will always be favoured against Fed, because he's the greatest best of 5 player of this era.

As Nishikorigoat has pointed out, Fed fans have lost their mind since Nadal won the US open and blew the GOAT question wide open again

I understand medical science, fitness, etc. have come a long way and that ATGs can play longer than before but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how old and past his prime Nadal is, Federer is more so. It also doesn't change the fact that, the younger players should be kicking the arses of the older and great players. If they aren't, they aren't good enough IMO.

As for the slam h2h between Nadal and Federer, I agree that Nadal owned Federer in that dept and Federer lost too many slam matches (off clay) to Nadal. But h2h isn't the most important measure for a tennis player. Things like slams number, weeks @ #1, etc. are more important and in that dept. Federer excels over Nadal at this time. If Nadal can surpass Federer's slam count, more power to Nadal. Let's see what happens.

As for Nadal always being the favorite in best of five over Federer "in the future", let's see. Surely, due to the age difference between them, that should be the future outcome for Nadal if Nadal can stay fit and injury free as well. In all seriousness, these two ATGs should not be dominating the sport and the younger players should be kicking arse already IMO. Let's see if Zverev can improve and if Kyrgios means what he says when he says he's trying to get more serious about tennis.

 

[Federev]

Whitaker actually said Nadal barely edges out Fed and that she can see arguments for putting Fed ahead too. She also chastised Law for calling a tie and if he had to choose Law would have picked Federer. So no, most are not leaning towards Nadal. The facts indicate Fed was the best player of the year. Before you chime in about rankings....Wozniaki. It's irrelevant she didn't win a slam, she was #1, that's the bottom line. LOLLLLLL

This this this this this this

 

[PrinceMoron]

Federer had the better hair and outfits, surely we can all agree on something


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 77403]

That's how the fan bases operate. Fed fans want to say that clay is not important, and Nadal fans want to make it all about clay.

 

[Tennisanity]

Really? The facts say that?

Yes, more big titles, H2H. Case closed.

 

[Gary Duane]

Yes, more big titles, H2H. Case closed.

Obviously the ATP does not agree.

I'd rate them about equal last year, but no one cares what I think.

 

[Tennisanity]

Obviously the ATP does not agree.

I'd rate them about equal last year, but no one cares what I think.

ATP often doesn't agree. CYGS >>>> Winning 4 Masters and going deep at 4 others. Yet the latter would finish first in the ATP rankings. Chew on that why don't you?

 

[Gary Duane]

ATP often doesn't agree. CYGS >>>> Winning 4 Masters and going deep at 4 others. Yet the latter would finish first in the ATP rankings. Chew on that why don't you?

Don't disagree with that example. Which has nothing to do with this year. Nothing to chew on. Merry Christmas to you too...

 

[mike danny]

Obviously the ATP does not agree.

I'd rate them about equal last year, but no one cares what I think.

But according to Nadal fans, Fed is the better player this year because of the H2H which is the tiebreaker.

 

[Tennisanity]

Don't disagree with that example. Which has nothing to do with this year. Nothing to chew on. Merry Christmas to you too...

One example is enough to prove ATP ranking does not always denote the best player.

 

[Gary Duane]

But according to Nadal fans, Fed is the better player this year because of the H2H which is the tiebreaker.

Hold on. You lost me. According to Nadal fans Fed is the better player this year???

I'm confused!

 

[Tennisanity]

Hold on. You lost me. According to Nadal fans Fed is the better player this year???

I'm confused!

For years the Nadal fangurls have been saying if titles are tied, then H2H is the tiebreaker. Thus, by their very own arguments, Fed must be declared the best player of 2017. On top of that the big titles aren't even tied in 2017!!!!

 

[Gary Duane]

For years the Nadal fangurls have been saying if titles are tied, then H2H is the tiebreaker. Thus, by their very own arguments, Fed must be declared the best player of 2017. On top of that the big titles aren't even tied in 2017!!!!

That was too convoluted for my little brain.

But yes, I've read over and over about the H2H, and I've argued against that idea repeatedly because:

1. The record has been rather close on fast surfaces.
2. Fed was there, time and time again, to challenge Nadal on clay, and that's where his H2H looks really bad.
3. Nadal has been missing in action since 2008, on grass. Only 3 meetings on grass means that Nadal has simply not been good enough to meet Fed on his best surface, something Nadal fans conveniently ignore.

Just to make my own position clear: I like both players, always have, and I think they are remarkably even in terms of careers. The same argument about Nadal not facing Fed on grass was valid last year for Fed not facing Nadal on clay.

I don't think either has been ducking the other. I just think it's worked out that way.

Most likely the final argument in evaluating their careers will be the final major count.

 

[Tennisanity]

That was too convoluted for my little brain.

But yes, I've read over and over about the H2H, and I've argued against that idea repeatedly because:

1. The record has been rather close on fast surfaces.
2. Fed was there, time and time again, to challenge Nadal on clay, and that's where his H2H looks really bad.
3. Nadal has been missing in action since 2008, on grass. Only 3 meetings on grass means that Nadal has simply not been good enough to meet Fed on his best surface, something Nadal fans conveniently ignore.

Just to make my own position clear: I like both players, always have, and I think they are remarkably even in terms of careers. The same argument about Nadal not facing Fed on grass was valid last year for Fed not facing Nadal on clay.

I don't think either has been ducking the other. I just think it's worked out that way.

Most likely the final argument in evaluating their careers will be the final major count.

You're talking about their whole career, that's another story. But for 2017 alone, Fed is the best. No doubt about that. It must proceed from the turds' very own arguments from history.

 

[octobrina10]

But according to Nadal fans, Fed is the better player this year because of the H2H which is the tiebreaker.

The H2H has never mattered to Fedfans, but all of a sudden, it became very significant to Fedfans this year! According to Fedfans' new logic, Rafa is the GOAT because of the H2H.

 

[Gary Duane]

You're talking about their whole career, that's another story. But for 2017 alone, Fed is the best. No doubt about that. It must proceed from the turds' very own arguments from history.

For the record, I don't agree, and I'm not a "Nadal turd", never have been.

I dislike FANatics, in any camp.

 

[Gary Duane]

The H2H has never mattered to Fedfans, but all of a sudden, it became very significant to Fedfans this year! According to Fedfans' new logic, Rafa is the GOAT because of the H2H.

Why do you care? Fed FANatics are totally biased. Always have been.

Do you really think YOU are open-minded, fair and balanced on the subject?

 

[Bobby Jr]

The H2H has never mattered to Fedfans, but all of a sudden, it became very significant to Fedfans this year! According to Fedfans' new logic, Rafa is the GOAT because of the H2H.

He can't be the GOAT as he's behind Federer on the most important metrics according to not only Fed fans but pretty much everyone who knows what's important in tennis across the open era.

The H2H is only relevant where you struggle to separate players - such as with Becker and Edberg. With Federer and Nadal there is a lot of daylight in some of the most important metrics between them, probably, most importantly, the time spent at #1.