Tennis Record site, out of business?

#13
In terms of overall ratings systems perhaps, but until USTA leagues switches to UTR there will always be room for sites that estimate players’ dynamic NTRP.
Well I can find some delinations across the measurements: 5 Utr should expect a bump to 4.0 ntrp, 7 utr should expect a bump to 4.5 ntrp. This covers almost 95% of rec players.

UTR does have a doubles and singles separate rating, so that has to be considered also.

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#14
I’ll first say, I’m not a fan of the rating sites.

Aside from being a guess as what USTA may be doing, I don’t like them because they feed the obsession of the “number” and people are less fun when they don’t want to play with someone, or certain line, or match because it may cause their rating to go down. This is recreational tennis. The addition of tr has only made it worse. A limited understanding of how ratings work adds to it.
They’re close-ish. TR does provide a nice view of information and could be valuable for scouting and filtering your matches in more ways as well as seeing all your results in a single view.
Who knows what USTAs stance really is on these type sites, but it doesn’t seem they have done much to make it difficult to scrape data from tennislink. There’s a lot they could be doing to prevent wholesale copying of player data without adding recaptcha to their site. I’m wondering if they have started making changes and that’s why tr hasn’t changed.

Or, the EU’s GDPR rule could be making things difficult. EU citizens, even those in the US, can request to have their data be deleted or face a steep fine. I imagine TR and TLS don’t have a good way to do that. Additionally, actions are to be taken to secure user data, users must opt in, etc etc. This type info likely applies.

I guess time will tell
 
#15
Interesting take....UTR is still pulling the data so I doubt it.

If I was USTA, I would prevent it from happening. Why give UTR and other sites free data. UTR isn’t anything without the USTA.
 

kevrol

Professional
#16
Well I can find some delinations across the measurements: 5 Utr should expect a bump to 4.0 ntrp, 7 utr should expect a bump to 4.5 ntrp. This covers almost 95% of rec players.

UTR does have a doubles and singles separate rating, so that has to be considered also.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
So you're saying that a dude with a UTR of 8 probably shouldn't be playing as a 3.5S?
 
#20
TR does provide a nice view of information and could be valuable for scouting and filtering your matches in more ways as well as seeing all your results in a single view.
TennisRecord is an exceptionally well designed site with a lot of data mined from the USTA. If you wanted to get the same information from the hot mess that USTA runs you'd have to pull it down yourself, and that's no fun.

I'm not sure I buy into the larger argument that sites like TR are having any significant impact on people's behavior. It's just the tool they used to justify it.

Or, the EU’s GDPR rule could be making things difficult. EU citizens, even those in the US, can request to have their data be deleted or face a steep fine. I imagine TR and TLS don’t have a good way to do that
I would wonder how their responsibility is impacted seeing that they are re-publishing someone else's publicly available information. I'm also not sure how the EU can enforce any punishment on an organization who never operates in the EU.
 
#21
Interesting take....UTR is still pulling the data so I doubt it.

If I was USTA, I would prevent it from happening. Why give UTR and other sites free data. UTR isn’t anything without the USTA.
I doubt the USTA cares all that much about UTR scraping data, especially since UTR is actively promoting the sport in the US, and the USTA can only benefit from that. The problem the USTA has with sites like TR and TLS is that they are attempting to mimic the USTA rating and deliberately blurring the line between being an official rating (which they aren't) and just a guess (which they are) in order to promote themselves while spreading potentially misleading information about player ratings. No one is going to say "hey, I'm a UTR 7, why wasn't I bumped to 4.5?", but there are those who will say "TR has me at 4.12, why wasn't I bumped?".
 
#22
Well, my matches are now updated, but I think they have some bugs to work out. I am a 3.5A, and it gave me a 3.0 for my first match after the 2018 scoring period. But it also used 3.0 for my dynamic, so even though I won a 4.0 match a week later, it only brought me up to mid 3.1x. I think they just need to click up my starting dynamic to 3.5 or 3.51 and it might be good to go.
 
#23
Well, my matches are now updated, but I think they have some bugs to work out. I am a 3.5A, and it gave me a 3.0 for my first match after the 2018 scoring period. But it also used 3.0 for my dynamic, so even though I won a 4.0 match a week later, it only brought me up to mid 3.1x. I think they just need to click up my starting dynamic to 3.5 or 3.51 and it might be good to go.
Depends on the rating of your 4.0 opponent. You may have played someone also playing up that's an average 3.5 player.
 
#25
Well, my matches are now updated, but I think they have some bugs to work out. I am a 3.5A, and it gave me a 3.0 for my first match after the 2018 scoring period. But it also used 3.0 for my dynamic, so even though I won a 4.0 match a week later, it only brought me up to mid 3.1x. I think they just need to click up my starting dynamic to 3.5 or 3.51 and it might be good to go.
I think you don't fully understand how their system works. Since you have match history, it uses your history rather than giving you a "starting point". So if USTA dropped you from 3.5C to 3.0C and you appealed back up to 3.5A that has nothing to do with how TR rates your matches ... TR doesn't even look at your rating to create a starting point, because they can't no one can ... except maybe @schmke because he has the black magic.

Your dynamic is fully separated from your USTA rating .... it is only determined by the ratings of the people on the court (the ratings according to TR), the outcome of the match and the math/algorithm that creates the new "rating"
 
#26
Well, my matches are now updated, but I think they have some bugs to work out. I am a 3.5A, and it gave me a 3.0 for my first match after the 2018 scoring period. But it also used 3.0 for my dynamic, so even though I won a 4.0 match a week later, it only brought me up to mid 3.1x. I think they just need to click up my starting dynamic to 3.5 or 3.51 and it might be good to go.
If you were a 3.0C and appealed up you'd get a 3.01 dynamic. If you were a 4.0C that appealed down - then you'd be something like a 3.49 for their calculations
 
#27
I think you don't fully understand how their system works. Since you have match history, it uses your history rather than giving you a "starting point". So if USTA dropped you from 3.5C to 3.0C and you appealed back up to 3.5A that has nothing to do with how TR rates your matches ... TR doesn't even look at your rating to create a starting point, because they can't no one can ... except maybe @schmke because he has the black magic.

Your dynamic is fully separated from your USTA rating .... it is only determined by the ratings of the people on the court (the ratings according to TR), the outcome of the match and the math/algorithm that creates the new "rating"
No, I was a 4.0 that appealed to 3.5A. So USTA obviously had me at 3.49-3.51, not 3.00. The dynamic used by TR was obviously created by them. One match would not take me from 3.49 to 3.00, no matter what the results.
 
#29
No, I was a 4.0 that appealed to 3.5A. So USTA obviously had me at 3.49-3.51, not 3.00. The dynamic used by TR was obviously created by them. One match would not take me from 3.49 to 3.00, no matter what the results.
Again, shouldn't make any difference .... you appealed DOWN to immediately play UP? odd.

Anyway .... look at your entire record 2018 and 2019 ... the dynamic rating should be a continuous progression .... there should be no leaps or wild changes and it has nothing to do with your actual USTA rating. The only place where there can be big fluctuations is in the match ratings .... good days/bad days good opponents/bad opponents .... and who you are partnered with in dubs will also make a big difference in the match rating.
 
#31
Oh, you must be talking about that match where we went to hit volleys in the warm-up at 5.0 sectionals and my partner said to me "I think my contacts are in backwards."

J
Best laugh of my morning .....

my favorite from a year ago or so .... partner says ... my vertigo has been acting up for days ... took my medication about an hour ago ... The.Worst.Match.Ever .... turns out medication for vertigo and tennis do not blend well.
 
#32
Again, shouldn't make any difference .... you appealed DOWN to immediately play UP? odd.

Anyway .... look at your entire record 2018 and 2019 ... the dynamic rating should be a continuous progression .... there should be no leaps or wild changes and it has nothing to do with your actual USTA rating. The only place where there can be big fluctuations is in the match ratings .... good days/bad days good opponents/bad opponents .... and who you are partnered with in dubs will also make a big difference in the match rating.
I guess I’m not explaining myself well. My only point is that TR maybe has some early season bugs. Yes, my dynamic progression was in the 3.3 to 3.45 range all of 2018 according to TR (a little higher according to the more accurate schmeke). And I was bumped to 4.0 which suggests it finished at 3.51 or so. TR started me at 3.0 to start the season. That seems like a bug to me no matter how bad my first result of the season was.

And I didn’t appeal down to immediately play up. I played 4.0 in the fall in anticipation of getting bumped. I was indeed bumped but appealed and it was granted.
 
#33
I highly recommend Schmke's analysis. Well worth it and very affordable for all the explanation he gives. I will throw in that I play both a lot of USTA league tennis and USTA tournaments. I was moved up from 3.0 to 3.5 with this last USTA adjustment in Dec. I also sometimes play in a league that uses UTR so I follow my UTR pretty regularly. GREAT in theory that UTR is considering more of a range of play but I humbly suggest my UTR is too low. My theory for this is that not enough people are enrolled in UTR so *I* can play tons of matches but the system doesn't know enough about my opponents. I will also throw out there that I found Tennis Record to be pretty accurate and "feel accurate" about myself and my opponents as I watched throughout last year. Also FYI at least here in So Cal, for tournament play, I'd say ranking around about 0.5 to a full 1.0 off the caliber of play at USTA league. As a strong 3.0 I dominated in my region playing at 3.5. Maybe it's because there aren't enough people signing up for tournaments at 3.0 so they eliminate 3.0 altogether so the 3.0s are playing at 3.5 and it has a cascade upwards effect. When I play tournaments I sit and watch other players too and chat and a lot of the men were saying absolute beginner men play at 3.5 and guys who have been playing a little bit will play at 4.0. Safe to say that's NOT a situation you'd ever find in USTA league play. anyway just some food for thought.
 
#35
Pretty sure is a bug. Guy that I know appealed from 4.5 to 4.0A had his dynamic start at 3.5. Sounds like their code is assuming players appealed up and not down.
I see the same thing in a match I played. It was 8.0 mixed doubles and the opposing woman was bumped to 4.0 and appealed down to 3.5A. She was given a dynamic rating of 3.01 in the system. The result was that even though I won the match 6-2, 6-3 I was given a dynamic rating "credit" of 2.99 for it. Lol.
 
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#36
No, I was a 4.0 that appealed to 3.5A. So USTA obviously had me at 3.49-3.51, not 3.00. The dynamic used by TR was obviously created by them. One match would not take me from 3.49 to 3.00, no matter what the results.
This is correct. So TR is only off 0.49 on you :eek:. Perhaps the time they took to improve things hasn't resulted in exactly what they'd hoped ...
 
#37
Pretty sure is a bug. Guy that I know appealed from 4.5 to 4.0A had his dynamic start at 3.5. Sounds like their code is assuming players appealed up and not down.
I don't think it's a bug per-se, just a poor assumption. Most likely when they pull the player ratings and see an "A" that matches last year's "C" rating for the same player, they don't know whether it was an appeal up or down. They could use their own estimate of the player's rating to make a guess ... but that assumes their 2018 estimate was reasonable.
 
#39
Mine updated as well. Has me at 3.91, down from the 4.12 predicted year end rating they had for me. I'm 4.0A, so they were definitely a bit high on the prediction, though they did correctly predict the bump. 3.91 seems about right, especially after a **** poor doubles win to start the winter season.

Anyway, I'm just happy results are populating again so I can stop using awful TennisLink to browse match histories.
 
#41
I guess I’m not explaining myself well. My only point is that TR maybe has some early season bugs. Yes, my dynamic progression was in the 3.3 to 3.45 range all of 2018 according to TR (a little higher according to the more accurate schmeke). And I was bumped to 4.0 which suggests it finished at 3.51 or so. TR started me at 3.0 to start the season. That seems like a bug to me no matter how bad my first result of the season was.

And I didn’t appeal down to immediately play up. I played 4.0 in the fall in anticipation of getting bumped. I was indeed bumped but appealed and it was granted.
You explained yourself just fine. I noticed the same thing. I played a 4.0A players that had appealed down from 4.5 and for some reason TR had him at 3.51 even though he finished last year at like 3.98 on their site. And he wasn't the only one. Seemed like an obvious bug.
 
#42
You explained yourself just fine. I noticed the same thing. I played a 4.0A players that had appealed down from 4.5 and for some reason TR had him at 3.51 even though he finished last year at like 3.98 on their site. And he wasn't the only one. Seemed like an obvious bug.
There are a couple of 4.5s from my area that have the "3.51" dynamic rating. One appealed down to 4.0. The other two are 4.5C
 
#44
You explained yourself just fine. I noticed the same thing. I played a 4.0A players that had appealed down from 4.5 and for some reason TR had him at 3.51 even though he finished last year at like 3.98 on their site. And he wasn't the only one. Seemed like an obvious bug.
Similar situation for me. It's now updated from 3.51 to 4.0006. They're obviously working through some issues :)
 
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