Tennis serve trophy position balance

[Balint]

My one (among others) serve problem is, if I bend my knee, I lose my balance. I use platform stance and abbreviated motion. You could see my serve on Youtube: http://youtu.be/20oROlurfvU.
I tried – as Bollettieri adviced in video on Youtube ,,Sonic serve” – to find my balance by strech my hip forward, but I did not find my balance at all. As I see, e.g. Federers balance is not caused by streching his hip forward, but he bends before his knees.

Thanks for any advice

Balint

 

[LeeD]

What do you mean by needing balance?
You didn't fall down, so you're OK.
You need to raise your toss hand to initiate hip forwards archer's bow, you need to lower your hitting elbow, you need to commit to the serve, you need to be driving forwards at trophy position while both feet are still planted.
Watch vids of Fed and DJ.

 

[Tight Lines]

I think you are confusing leaning back and leaning right. If you lean right, you must throw your hip to the left for balance. I think that is what Sonic is talking about. Federer's knee bend has more to do with leaning back. They are both sources of power/loading.

But, IMO, you must correct your trophy position. Your upper arm is way too high compared to your shoulder. Study the trophy position on youtube and really learn that pose. Then, you can work on accelerating towards the ball from that position. As it is, you are dropping your racket too soon and losing speed. Stay in the trophy position for a split second longer. Then, you can explode into the ball.

Good luck.

Harry

 

[Chas Tennis]

In a high level serve, the purpose of the leg thrust is to raise the body with shoulder causing the racket and forearm to drop back which stretches the internal shoulder rotator muscles. You can also get this same stretch with other shoulder and body motions so using the legs is one contributing factor.

You head and shoulders do not rise up. Your front foot stays planted on the ground as you move forward unlike pro servers, that may be why you lose balance. The pros feet leave the ground and they jump a little forward. Your right foot has to step forward to keep your balance - pro server's right foot flies up high behind them. Your head is looking up at a awkward angle at ball impact unlike most pro servers. See videos.

I have seen your head-to-the-side orientation on some Stosur serves but not on the great majority of servers. Most pro servers are not looking up at the ball for impact, they break off looking at the last second probably due to neck stress.)

Watch feet and overall motion. Feet off ground, little jump forward. Right leg up behind (probably for balance).
https://vimeo.com/95462922

Stosur's unusual head position on some serves.
https://vimeo.com/87038955

Raonic's head position typical of pro servers. Eyes not on ball at impact. Should amateurs copy. ??
https://vimeo.com/53440915

Your shoulders look in a very risky orientation - stop until you understand this issue. The orientation of a server's shoulders can cause shoulder impingement - a serious shoulder injury usually involving the rotator cuff. Be very careful experimenting with serve techniques. Understand the Ellenbecker video for reducing the stress on the shoulder for the internal shoulder rotation serve, the technique used by all high level servers.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

Typical pro shoulder orientation for a high level serve, one very high and one very low at impact.

To better see your own shoulder orientation as discussed in the Ellenbecker and Jim McLennan videos, video from behind looking along the trajectory of the ball. Search (using box above on this page) : camera behind Chas Tennis for camera and serve issues in posted videos

 

[heninfan99]

My two cents OP:
Forget the ball and the toss for now.You're not getting into trophy position so just try to get into the position and ask a friend for live feedback.

Maybe even forget the legs for now. Just try to get your racquet, arms and upper body in position. Get that right first.

Here's a simple, abbreviated motion, easier than Federer's:
http://youtu.be/6eG37UZsur8

 

[TennisCJC]

Get your asse over your heels with a very slight knee bend before you start forward. Don't worry about pointing front hip or archer's bow.

I think you have a really good point. Balance is critical to a good serve and you will see a lot of rec players off balance before they start their forward motion in the serve.

I have a couple of friends who basically start their serves with a little flex in their knees on balance and basically don't change too much in the take back to trophy phase. They just toss it up and use a throwing motion with a bit of shoulder rotation.

A good drill to help with balance is to stand very open to the net with feet at 45 degree angle - assuming righty, the L foot would be near baseline and the R foot would be off to right but a foot or two further back. Then hit serves using nothing but shoulder rotation and a throwing motion. Keep you knees relaxed with a little bend but just let the shoulder rotation take the lead. Basically, you are serving with little or no leg motion.

From there, square up the stance or go to slightly closed and try to use only the shoulders and throwing action with relaxed legs.

You can hit ball pretty hard with just shoulder rotation and a relaxed throwing motion.

Then, try to work on pushing up and in with the legs as the final piece.

 

[Balint]

My two cents OP:
Forget the ball and the toss for now.You're not getting into trophy position so just try to get into the position and ask a friend for live feedback.

Maybe even forget the legs for now. Just try to get your racquet, arms and upper body in position. Get that right first.

Here's a simple, abbreviated motion, easier than Federer's:
http://youtu.be/6eG37UZsur8

Thank you for your answer, I think too, Gasquet’s serve can
be a better modell for me than Federer's.
I have traied to reach the trophy position without hittig the
ball. The scoulders tilt, the knees bend – it succeeded, but
I felt no balance. Schould I only practise it, or is there any
secret, to get the balance?
( Then when I traied to hit the ball, the all motion collepsed,
and my old serve motion come back.)

 

[LeeD]

There is NO balance involved.
Like any dynamic motion, the position is achieved thru several different MOTIONS, all coming into play for that moment in time.
Like a running long jump, you cannot replicate the moment in time when the runner hit's the launch pad. You need the running dynamics and the loaded launch leg, to achieve the MOMENT of dynamic pose.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

You need to get your heels off the ground when you bend your knees so that you can lay back slightly and still keep your balance. You do not really need much knee bend to get a bit of leg drive on your serve.

 

[Smarticus523]

You need to get your heels off the ground when you bend your knees so that you can lay back slightly and still keep your balance. You do not really need much knee bend to get a bit of leg drive on your serve.

It might help to think of it as "pressing your toes INTO the ground" rather than lifting your heels. I found this mental approach made a big difference.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It might help to think of it as "pressing your toes INTO the ground" rather than lifting your heels. I found this mental approach made a big difference.

Cool. If that works for you, use it. Wonder if thinking about it that way would work to get others to have their heels off the ground when laying back while bending the knees

 

[Mitcheson]

My take on it is that the trophy position is not a static position, it is part of a continuous movement involving weight transfer and leaning into the court.

If you were perfectly balanced you could stop or freeze at trophy but surely you should be leaning in and would fall forwards but as your momentum takes you up and forwards in this continuous movement there is no problem if it all works together with acceleration from there up into contact and follow through.

 

[Chas Tennis]

My take on it is that the trophy position is not a static position, it is part of a continuous movement involving weight transfer and leaning into the court.

If you were perfectly balanced you could stop or freeze at trophy but surely you should be leaning in and would fall forwards but as your momentum takes you up and forwards in this continuous movement there is no problem if it all works together with acceleration from there up into contact and follow through.

Not true.

Depending on the toss height and technique the Trophy Position can be briefly static (Sharapova) or very rapid (Roddick). Both techniques can be high level serves.

The only way to determine what is true in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse is to view high speed videos of ATP servers yourself, otherwise untrue information grows much faster than what is true.

I've posted on this issue of toss height and Trophy Position before.