Tennis Serve Wrist Snap: Harmful Myth?!?!

sureshs said:
I don't see how most serves will go in unless there is some downward wrist movement just before and during contact. Exceptions are high arc second serves with incomplete finish.
Click to expand...

Upon close inspection of slow-mo video, it can be seen that the racket face is slightly open just prior to contact and nearly nearly vertical (for the serves shown below). As the ball has just left the racket, it can be seen that the racket face has started to close. However, there is no evidence of downward wrist movement before contact to speak of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GFkqD7GBZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO1X4m7FOuI
 
Kevo said:
With pronation it's easy to hit the ball down into the court. No wrist movement necessary. Just turning of the arm.
Click to expand...

Agreed to some extent. Maybe intuitive for serves headed to the right (for righties). Not intuitive for slices or T serves, where supination seems more natural. I guess the pros can hit slice serves with pronation, but I don't know about club players.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Upon close inspection of slow-mo video, it can be seen that the racket face is slightly open just prior to contact and nearly nearly vertical (for the serves shown below). As the ball has just left the racket, it can be seen that the racket face has started to close. However, there is no evidence of downward wrist movement before contact to speak of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GFkqD7GBZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO1X4m7FOuI
Click to expand...

Do you see any pronation in the first video?
 
All the videos of pros serving show the wrist straight before and after the contact, even long after the contact. The wrist snap on the serve is a myth.
 
Relax yourselves. During your serve the wrist acts as a loose hinge. If you try to force a 'snap', you will just hurt yourself.
 
Power Player said:
What may really help you get past this is what I have been doing. Make sure to grip the racquet low on the handle so your pinky is around halfway off of it. It should feel pretty comfortable, and you will just have to remind yourself right before you serve each time for a bit.

This will make a huge difference because you will not have to think about the wrist snapping, it is going to naturally bring the racquet head down.

The other thing that helps is the timing of the whole service motion. I have messed with mine a lot, and my serve has sucked for a while, but it is now clicking in where I am placing it into corners and hitting aces again.

stay real relaxed and slow on the whole motion and try mimcing the service motion on the fuzzy yellow balls site. That is the basic serve, but once you really get it right, the timing syncs up and you can get into a zone with your serve that should help you with the pronation.
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Perfect advice. For me continental grip with pinky finger out of the racquet grip gives me the pronation to get pace on the ball.

The main thing in tennis serve other than toss is how you bust into the ball during contact. Your follow though will give you a clean indication of whether you are robbing power or busting everything into it. Try to get this first and then focus on things that will improve your burst into the ball like leg push etc. Leg push, serve arch etc are important for getting maximum burst into the ball. But first make sure you have a decent toss and decent finish of serve if your finish is bad then how good you set your serve up will be of no use.
 
sureshs said:
Do you see any pronation in the first video?
Click to expand...

Absolutely (see evidence of pronation). Take a look at the racket on its way up from the scratch position. Stop the video at the point where the racket is more-or-less parallel to the ground. It is clear that the forearm is supinated since, at this point, it appears that he is going to hit the ball with the edge of his racket rather than the strings. As the racket head continues upward, the arm/racket is pronated in oder to present the strings to the ball.
 
SFrazeur said:
I HATE when I hear people say to "snap your wrist" on a serve. The motion is not a "snap," it is pronation. Yes. There is bound to be some fexion as a natural effect caused by the pronation.

wristandhandterm.jpeg


-SF
Click to expand...

There is a commercial on Tennis Channel where some dude is giving advice on snapping of the wrist on serve(using flexion).

Surely you have seen it.
 
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bad_call said:
adhering to earlier posts terminology clarification, reads to be "flexion".
Click to expand...

I freeze-framed every player at contact. There was certainly pronation to varying degrees.

Not one engaged in flexion into contact. Some show slight flexion well into follow through.

For example, look at 1:39. The arm and racquet are still in line post-contact. There's pronounced pronation immediately after that point followed by some flexion later

But there's not one single example of a player using flexion to swing the racquet head into contact as so many people have been instructed to do.

Last night while practicing I ran into a couple of friends and this topic arose. We all had the same experience with three different pros at our club. Each of the pros teaches students to "flexion into contact" with the ball as in: extend arm with racquet head above and behind ball and then flexion into contact with the ball. The results were the same for all of us: arm pain, inconsistent serves, and low powered serves. And we all had decided independently to ignore the instructors!
 
^^^There will be some pronation, otherwise you'd be hitting with the edge of the frame! The amount determines the angle of the racquet at contact and therefore the amount of spin (along with other factors obviously - swing path etc). But full pronation is delayed until after - for deceleration purposes.

Cheers

Ash
 
Ash_Smith said:
^^^There will be some pronation, otherwise you'd be hitting with the edge of the frame! The amount determines the angle of the racquet at contact and therefore the amount of spin (along with other factors obviously - swing path etc). But full pronation is delayed until after - for deceleration purposes.

Cheers

Ash
Click to expand...

Then that would mean pronation happens before contact.

I think pronation before contact can be followed by supination after contact. Why not?
 
The wrist flexion isn’t myth!!!

The pictures below demonstrate usual flat serve. On photo #1 Marat Safin is going to start pronation phase of the serve. The photo #2 is the same as #1, except there are added lines to measure the wrist extension. The alpha (α) angle is equal to 35°. Safin bent back the wrist (wrist extension) and the racquet face is in almost semi open position. On photo #3 the wrist is in neutral arrangement (α = 0°), the racquet travels around 35°. Thus Safin exploits wrist flexion very intensively to increase the racquet speed. And of cause he pronates around 90 degrees before and during contact.

14dqama.jpg

In the link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=370729&page=11 post 219 you can see very extreme wrist flexion and pronation 90 degrees.
 
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@Sureshs Yes, a little, by neccessity! But the bulk of the pronation comes after.

Supination - I cannot imagine why you'd want to supinate after contact or even what that might look like, so either I'm missing your point entirely or it's a barmy idea! :-)

@Toly - hard to see the angle of the wrist in shots 1 and 2, and your measurement of the angle between forearm and racquet face is not necessarily representative. The grip for example could alter the face angle while the wrist position remains neutral, a grip moved towards eastern forehand would make the angle you see in this picture if the wrist position is neutral. For me this isn't anything close to proof that there is active flexion of the wrist during the serve.

Cheers

Ash
 
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Ash_Smith said:
^^^ Yes, a little, by neccessity! But the bulk of the pronation comes after.

Supination - I cannot imagine why you'd want to supinate after contact or even what that might look like, so either I'm missing your point entirely or it's a barmy idea! :-)

Cheers

Ash
Click to expand...

If the racquet is moving in towards the body after contact for a slice serve, isn't it natural for the palm to point inwards rather than outwards?
 
Here is a link to a video clip that shows Andy Roddicks forearm internally rotating, whist practising at the London Masters in December.
http://www.procomparetennis.net/articles/read/andy-roddick-2nd-serve
For me, pronantion helps increase racket head speed which if done at the right time will increase the service speed. The timing of the pronation also allows the server to control the direction of the serve.
Reducing the tension on the grip will allow the forearm to move freely through the internal rotation, in my opinion relaxing the fingers is a good idea.
 
@Sureshs - But with the continued rotation of the shoulders the palm would end up facing away from the body anyway as it came across the body, if you supinated (for a right hander supination would be rotation clockwise - as per the picture SFrazeur posted) you'd end up losing some of your acceleration.

Cheers

Ash
 
TimothyO said:
But there's not one single example of a player using flexion to swing the racquet head into contact as so many people have been instructed to do.
Click to expand...

But don't they all use wrist extension (as per earlier photos/terms) to swing the racket into contact?
 
Ash_Smith said:
@Sureshs Yes, a little, by neccessity! But the bulk of the pronation comes after.

Supination - I cannot imagine why you'd want to supinate after contact or even what that might look like, so either I'm missing your point entirely or it's a barmy idea! :-)

@Toly - hard to see the angle of the wrist in shots 1 and 2, and your measurement of the angle between forearm and racquet face is not necessarily representative. The grip for example could alter the face angle while the wrist position remains neutral, a grip moved towards eastern forehand would make the angle you see in this picture if the wrist position is neutral. For me this isn't anything close to proof that there is active flexion of the wrist during the serve.

Cheers

Ash
Click to expand...
On picture 3 Safin keeps the wrist in neutral position and the racquet string bed is in vertical arrangement. Hence Safin uses continental grip. If his grip moves to eastern FH grip, the racquet should be semi open.:)
 
Ash_Smith said:
@Sureshs - But with the continued rotation of the shoulders the palm would end up facing away from the body anyway as it came across the body, if you supinated (for a right hander supination would be rotation clockwise - as per the picture SFrazeur posted) you'd end up losing some of your acceleration.

Cheers

Ash
Click to expand...

How do you bring your hand into a tucking position into your body with your palm facing outwards????
 
suresh,

By your statement above do mean turn your palm outward? In other words, if right handed, at and just after contact one pronates so the palm and striking surface of the racquet are facing outward to one's right?

Thta's what I see happening in these videos. And once I tried replicating that move this weekend three things happened:

I could serve more accurately and consistently.

I could serve more comfortably.

Combined with a shoulder and trunk turn I could serve with easy, smooth power...no need to rush.
 
TimothyO said:
suresh,

By your statement above do mean turn your palm outward? In other words, if right handed, at and just after contact one pronates so the palm and striking surface of the racquet are facing outward to one's right?

Thta's what I see happening in these videos. And once I tried replicating that move this weekend three things happened:

I could serve more accurately and consistently.

I could serve more comfortably.

Combined with a shoulder and trunk turn I could serve with easy, smooth power...no need to rush.
Click to expand...

Even on slice serves? Doesn't it put strain on the arm?
 
TimothyO said:
I freeze-framed every player at contact. There was certainly pronation to varying degrees.

Not one engaged in flexion into contact. Some show slight flexion well into follow through.

For example, look at 1:39. The arm and racquet are still in line post-contact. There's pronounced pronation immediately after that point followed by some flexion later

But there's not one single example of a player using flexion to swing the racquet head into contact as so many people have been instructed to do.

Last night while practicing I ran into a couple of friends and this topic arose. We all had the same experience with three different pros at our club. Each of the pros teaches students to "flexion into contact" with the ball as in: extend arm with racquet head above and behind ball and then flexion into contact with the ball. The results were the same for all of us: arm pain, inconsistent serves, and low powered serves. And we all had decided independently to ignore the instructors!
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, Im trying to use continantal instead of eastern forehand grip for serving but the few times Ive tried to flex into contact it hurts my wrist.
 
Ash_Smith said:
^^^There will be some pronation, otherwise you'd be hitting with the edge of the frame! The amount determines the angle of the racquet at contact and therefore the amount of spin (along with other factors obviously - swing path etc). But full pronation is delayed until after - for deceleration purposes.

Cheers

Ash
Click to expand...

I think pronation should come in a natural way in order for it to work.:)
 
sureshs said:
Then that would mean pronation happens before contact.

I think pronation before contact can be followed by supination after contact. Why not?
Click to expand...

The pronation on a slice serve is milder than a "flat" serve prior to contact in order to brush the ball (more of a glancing blow). The supinated edge of the racket comes upward toward the ball from the scratch and then opens up a bit (pronated) in order to present the string to brush the ball. The timing of the pronation is also somewhat different than it would be for a flatter serve.
 
toly said:
The pictures below demonstrate usual flat serve. On photo #1 Marat Safin is going to start pronation phase of the serve. The photo #2 is the same as #1, except there are added lines to measure the wrist extension. The alpha (α) angle is equal to 35°. Safin bent back (wrist extension) the writ and the racquet face is in almost semi open position. On photo #3 the wrist is in neutral arrangement (α = 0°), the racquet travels around 35°. Thus Safin exploits wrist flexion very intensively to increase the racquet speed. And of cause he pronates around 90 degrees before and during contact. ...
Click to expand...

Sorry toly, don't see it at all. None of your pictures on the previous page (or on post #219 of the other thread) show Safin with his wrist in a position of flexion. I see wrist extension and radial deviation but no state of flexion is discernible.

The wrist is fairly neutral at contact. Now we might refer to the motion or action of the wrist from its laid back position to its neutral position as combination of pronation, flexion and ulnar deviation. But your statement (in bold) is very misleading. It would appear to imply that the wrist assumes a flexxed position before and/or during contact - this is what wrist snap implies to those that hear the term -- this is not the case (no state of flexion is shown in any of the photos you have referenced).
.
 
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cliff said:
Here is a link to a video clip that shows Andy Roddicks forearm internally rotating, whist practising at the London Masters in December.
http://www.procomparetennis.net/articles/read/andy-roddick-2nd-serve
For me, pronantion helps increase racket head speed which if done at the right time will increase the service speed. The timing of the pronation also allows the server to control the direction of the serve.
Reducing the tension on the grip will allow the forearm to move freely through the internal rotation, in my opinion relaxing the fingers is a good idea.
Click to expand...

looks good to me no matter what terminology one uses.
 
Imo wrist snap is the byproduct of having a continental grip then swinging upwards into the serve. Shouldn't be something that is forced.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Sorry toly, don't see it at all. None of your pictures on the previous page (or on post #219 of the other thread) show Safin with his wrist in a position of flexion. I see wrist extension and radial deviation but state of flexion is discernible.

The wrist is fairly neutral at contact. Now we might refer to the motion or action of the wrist from its laid back position to its neutral position as combination of pronation, flexion and ulnar deviation. But your statement (in bold) is very misleading. It would appear to imply that the wrist assumes a flexxed position before and/or during contact - this is what wrist snap implies to those that hear the term -- this is not the case (no state of flexion is shown in any of the photos you have referenced).
.
Click to expand...
I’m very bad with English. Maybe I’m using wrong medical terms. Assume, my wrist/hand is in bent back position and I move it toward neutral wrist position. What is the proper name of this motion? I think it is wrist flexion, but I’m not sure about that.
I Google this word and got, “Wrist flexion is - moving the palm of the hand toward the front of the forearm”. See please http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Wrist.html It looks like I'm right!? or not?
 
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toly said:
I’m very bad with English. Maybe I’m using wrong medical terms. Assume, my wrist/hand is in bent back position and I move it toward neutral wrist position. What is the proper name of this motion? I think it is wrist flexion, but I’m not sure about that.
I Google this word and got, “Flexion is - moving the palm of the hand toward the front of the forearm”. See please http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Wrist.html It looks like I'm right!? or not?
Click to expand...

wrist_flex.gif


Part of the problem occurs because the term, flexion, is commonly used in 2 different ways. It is often used to denote the act of bending a limb/joint or it can denote the position of a limb (or extremity). From my own readings it appears that the 2nd usage is a bit more commonplace than the 1st.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flexion


I have seen a number of different definitions of the phrase, wrist flexion. One definition is: Bending the joint resulting in a decrease of angle; moving the palm of the hand toward the front of the forearm.

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Wrist.html
 
toly said:
...My wrist/hand is in bent back position and I move it toward neutral wrist position. What is the proper name of this motion?
Click to expand...

This is not clear from some of the definitions that I've encountered. However, I would say that a motion from an extended position to a neutral position could be characterized as a wrist flexion (according to the 1st definition I provided above). But it does not quite fit with the exrx.net definition that says, "Bending the joint resulting in a decrease of angle; moving the palm of the hand toward the front of the forearm". Moving the palm toward the neutral position is not really the same thing as moving the palm toward the front of the forearm.

It appears to be more common to refer to a wrist action from neutral to a flexed position as wrist flexion. The most common usuage of "wrist flexion" is the flexed position itself.

My objection was the statement that, "Safin exploits wrist flexion very intensively". This statement would very well lead the reader to believe that the wrist achieves a flexed position before or during contact according to your emphasis and the most common usage of the term "wrist flexion".
.
 
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TimothyO said:
Haven't tried it on slices yet, so not sure. But it was definitely very comfy whereas "snapping" my wrist in a "waving goodbye" fashion was painful.
Click to expand...

To me pronation is natural for top spin or kick serves (or at least what I pass my serves as). The slice seems to be different.
 
Try this practical experiment: hold your racket arm straight up so the inside of your wrist is just in front of your nose. Hold your other hand around your upper wrist so your racket arm can't move. Lay back (OK, extend) your wrist and curl your fingers, creating "knuckles." Now briskly "snap" your wrist, accelerating your knuckles into your forehead.

Hurts some, doesn't it? I think you have to give that kind of muscular action some credit as part of the "chain" of accelerating the racket head.
 
^ Snapping the wrist with an empty hand is one thing. It can be moved this way with a fair amount of force and speed. However, doing this with a 27" racket (with a 300+ SW) in hand is quite another. The inertia & the angular mass of the hand/racket system is just too great to effectively or safely use this action to accelerate the racket head. This is why internal shoulder rotation and forearm pronation are the primary actions used to accelerate the racket head.


.
 
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sureshs said:
To me pronation is natural for top spin or kick serves (or at least what I pass my serves as). The slice seems to be different.
Click to expand...

What is the orientation of your racket head as it initially moves upward from the racket head drop position for your slice serve (or for any serve, for that matter)? Most decent servers will have a racket edge leading on the way up. In order to present the strings to the ball rather than hitting the ball with the edge of the racket in this scenario, some rotation must be employed -- the resulting pre-contact pronation will be mild compared to a flatter serve.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
What is the orientation of your racket head as it initially moves upward from the racket head drop position for your slice serve (or for any serve, for that matter)? Most decent servers will have a racket edge leading on the way up. In order to present the strings to the ball rather than hitting the ball with the edge of the racket in this scenario, some rotation must be employed -- the resulting pre-contact pronation will be mild compared to a flatter serve.
Click to expand...

Yes it is mild
 
OK my favorite topic! (Ha.)

Wrist flexion occurs from the racket drop to the neutral position at contact. Wanna call that snap? Go for it. But high speed video at 500 frames of dozens of players show the wrist doesn't pass through this neutral or "in line" position during or right after contact.

After contact the hand and arm and racket continue to rotate with the wrist still in line with the forearm. Sometimes you see the wrist relax and fall past neutral pretty far out in the followthrough.

Biomechanics has shown that the flex to the contact does contribute to racket head speed. Whether that is a conscious muscle contraction, a motion driven effect, or something else, has been debated. A well known physicist says the racket snaps the wrist...

The guy on the tennis channel is very convincing--except that what he shows--the wave bye bye thru contact doesn't happen and I bet if we slowed down his serve we wouldn't see it there either.

I think the key is less what you call it, or how it is caused, but whether your hitting arm and racket are in the right positions during the motion.

For me as a coach when I saw people try to "snap" they shortened and tightened the motion, and most importantly stopped the internal rotation of the upper arm, which is probably the most important element.
 
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