Tennis Serve Wrist Snap: Harmful Myth?!?!

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ John, thanks for your take on this. Always great to get your perspective on these things. You are undoubtedly right about the flex (and deviation) from the drop up to the neutral position at contact contributing to racket head speed. I did not mean to dismiss this contribution. My contention is that this is secondary to internal rotation of the shoulder and pronation of the forearm. I am also reluctant to characterize this action as wrist snap.

Who was it that said, "the racket snaps the wrist" (rather than the wrist snapping the racket)? Was that Rod Cross, Howard Brody or someone else.

 

[toly]

Who was it that said, "the racket snaps the wrist" (rather than the wrist snapping the racket)? Was that Rod Cross, Howard Brody or someone else.

Physicist Rod Cross explains that the racquet snaps the wrist, not vice versa. See please link http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html
I’m not sure about that.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Thnx for the link, toly.

When you say, "I’m not sure about that", are you saying that you disagree with Prof Cross?

 

[GuyClinch]

Yeah we had this debate before. I have come around to Yandell's way of thinking..

I think the confusion of the serve arises from the fact you CAN use what feels like alot of wrist to do 'low speed' serves. (But even the service is a snap guy is rolling his elblow and using some shoulder)..

But as the physicist guy says its possible to use the wrist - but its just not terribly efficent. Such that when you really crank up your serve and really torque your body and roll your elbow its just going way to fast for your wrist to really add anything to the situation...

I think though despite what the physicist guy says (and this is what makes his argument seem a bit weak) the forehand is somewhat similiar. Most players don't seem to flex their wrist during the swing - its just a kind of natural movement from the laid back to the neutral position because of the huge force generated from the forward swings..

The wrist movement is more of a door knob twist if the forehand.. No doubt the physicst meant to describe this but he made it seem like forehands are indeed wristy - and I don't agree.

But you COULD flex your wrist if you really wanted too (in the forehand) - its doubtful it would help things though it would likely send the ball off in some weird direction I think..

Pete

 

[jswinf]

^ Snapping the wrist with an empty hand is one thing. It can be moved this way with a fair amount of force and speed. However, doing this with a 27" racket (with a 300+ SW) in hand is quite another. The inertia & the angular mass of the hand/racket system is just too great to effectively or safely use this action to accelerate the racket head. This is why internal shoulder rotation and forearm pronation are the primary actions used to accelerate the racket head.


.

Trying the experiment with a racket in my hand, I still feel like the wrist "extending" gets it moving fairly briskly, but I can't hit myself in the forehead. Any volunteers? Youzhny?

I feel like we've gotten into an area of "party line" responses. Just like a baseball pitcher uses everything from his toes to his fingertips to accelerate a fastball, if forearm muscles can add to the total process of speeding up the racket head as the wrist extends from laid-back to straight as it approaches the ball, that's just gonna happen.

And personally, I found that reintroducing the idea of letting my wrist do something rather than just connect my hand to my arm gave me back a little of the "pop" I'd been missing.

 

[bhupaes]

Nothing prevents one from snapping the wrist, but that's not the best use of the kinetic chain, IMO. Here's my optimal scenario...

When the racquet moves up from the "backscratch" position, it's powered by the big muscles of the body, shoulder, triceps, etc. The backwardly extended wrist creates the arc necessary to accelerate the racquet as energy is transferred. At this stage, the most important function of the wrist would be to position the racquet head appropriately with respect to the ball, IMO. If you are trying to actively impart power by snapping the wrist, and trying to find the optimal position at the same time - given that humans can usually do only one thing well at a time - something's gotta give. And it will probably be the positioning, leading to inconsistency. Nevertheless, the wrist has to move pretty quickly to position itself, so it will contribute some to RHS as a side effect. Also, ulnar flexion should be safe if performed at the right time, since it only contributes to spin after other wrist movements have set up the racquet properly, and in fact, this would lead to more consistency because of the increased spin.

 

[toly]

Thnx for the link, toly.

When you say, "I’m not sure about that", are you saying that you disagree with Prof Cross?

Yes, I have some doubts.
For example:
1. Cross stated, “At the start of the swing, the racquet is behind the back, almost at right angles to the forearm. By the time the racquet has swung around to impact the ball, the racquet and the forearm are almost in line. It looks like the wrists are being used to swing the racquet around, but it’s actually the other way around. The wrist rotates because it is almost limp and the rotating racquet pulls the wrist around.”
1. According to Cross, in most cases during impact the wrist stays in neutral. IMO, this technique can be used to produce flat FH, but never in case of the topspin FH. See please thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5429995#post5429995 posts 8, 12, 18, 20, 24, and 27. There are a little correlation between real FH videos and Cross analysis.
2. He also stated about serve, “It is obvious in Fig. 5 that the forearm rotation speed decreased quite a lot just before impact”. According to my analysis, the arm, and hence forearm, rotates in vertical plane (by using shoulder joint) with constant angular speed, thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5274916#post5274916 posts 1 and 7.

Nevertheless, I like his idea about centripetal force dominates, but his analysis is not very accurate.

 

[John marth]

The term wrist snap is used to teach pronation the wrist snap is just a concept to teach pronation because when hitting the ball there is forced wrist movement to hit the ball from a pronated serve position which is not detectable in videos.

 

[SinjinCooper]

The term wrist snap is used to teach pronation the wrist snap is just a concept to teach pronation because when hitting the ball there is forced wrist movement to hit the ball from a pronated serve position which is not detectable in videos.

Yeah but pronation is just the way we talk about way the arm pronates during arm pronation which is the pronating of the arm.

 

[heninfan99]

From Winning Ugly
Look in the mirror. Do You See Pete Sampras? Most recreational players (especially guys) believe if they can get everything right on the toss, the extension, the wrist snap, and the follow-through, they'll have a super serve. So they pursue that elusive monster at their own expense.

From Popular Mechanics

It was just the language of the day by pros and such.

 

[Sam Pras]

Yeah but pronation is just the way we talk about way the arm pronates during arm pronation which is the pronating of the arm.

Hey Cooper. I've asked you a number of times now and you have yet to respond. Do you have any credentials as a teaching pro or coach? And what about your player experience?

 

[bitcoinoperated]

It is just another thing that people fixate on by putting the cart before the horse. It happens as a consequence of doing other things right and being relaxed and shouldn't be an active focus.