Tennis strokes and tennis volley means nothing in pickleball doubles

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Agree.

Things I've noted:

You can't stay at the baseline in PB. You'll lose against the better players, without a doubt.

Get to the kitchen as quickly as possible after returning!

If you're serving, a good third shot drop or a low net clearance, high pace spin drive are key. The drive will usually produce a volley sitter from all but the best players. The drop will neutralize the point.

Learn to slightly adjust backward/forward at the kitchen when you or your partner hit the ball too high. Good chance of getting it back off the smash. The feet must always be moving like tennis. Anticipation is so important.

Never back up dinking. Adjust you body. Practice dinking and half-dink volleys are key.

Recognize when you're playing total defense and reset with a wide angle drop. Going offensive while playing defense will usually lose the point.

Get a good hitting partner to practice effective dinks and quick net exchanges.

Good list … agree with all. Also … I noticed in one of my early posts above I predicted I would not like leaning forward and hitting that bh ping pong like arming stroke. I was wrong … love it and the firefights. I am better at taking dinks out of the air when there … but still have to fight my instinct to step back on everything. I’ve also have a decent fh topspin speedup now from below the net, often find gap in middle between the opponents. I think perhaps that topspin on speedup which probably comes faster to tennis players is more important than the baseline topspin in doubles. I notice I lot of good intermediate doubles players that pretty solid at kitchen don’t have that topspin speedup … can be a point ender.

Funny ros story … your comment about getting in quick after ros reminded me. I know I need to come in behind every ros. I do most of the time … but I find myself missing hitting tennis baseline strokes. I would occasionally hang back just so I could hit more. :-D An instuctor (one of our many new pb friends) had watched me play in a 2 hour ladder/league. He came up to me and asked if I wanted a tip. Yes I did. He said never stay back after ros against good players because they are programmed to hit 3rd shot deep to foolish player staying back. You just made that key 3rd shot easy for them. I agreed … plead my wanted to hit tennis shots defense … and quit staying back (mostly;)).

6 months later … and I will still on occasion hit 3rd shot volley. Wife really struggled stopping hitting volley before the bounce. I think the odds are low we both got dementia at same time. :-D
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Agree.

Things I've noted:

You can't stay at the baseline in PB. You'll lose against the better players, without a doubt.

Get to the kitchen as quickly as possible after returning!

If you're serving, a good third shot drop or a low net clearance, high pace spin drive are key. The drive will usually produce a volley sitter from all but the best players. The drop will neutralize the point.

Learn to slightly adjust backward/forward at the kitchen when you or your partner hit the ball too high. Good chance of getting it back off the smash. The feet must always be moving like tennis. Anticipation is so important.

Never back up dinking. Adjust you body. Practice dinking and half-dink volleys are key.

Recognize when you're playing total defense and reset with a wide angle drop. Going offensive while playing defense will usually lose the point.

Get a good hitting partner to practice effective dinks and quick net exchanges.

I would like to drill … but generally not a court open when we play, and wife would rather just play. I took her to practice sand traps years ago and she asked “why would anyone get in there unless they had to” :love:

I think the #1 thing I need to drill his bh cc dinking. I want to switch to 2hbh cc dink … feels solid but need reps.
 
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Bud

Bionic Poster
I would like to drill … but generally not a court open when we play, and wife would rather just play. I took her to practice sand traps years ago and she asked “why would anyone get in there unless they had to” :love:

I think the #1 thing I need to drill his bh cc dinking. I want to switch to 2hbh cc dink … feels solid but need reps.
That's a huge problem... Finding courts that are available.

I'm trying to switch to 1HBH dinks from two :)
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That's a huge problem... Finding courts that are available.

I'm trying to switch to 1HBH dinks from two :)

I am mainly hitting 1hbh from baseline (flat drives and slice (almost all of tennis years 1hbh)) … but most of my dink errors coming from 1hbh dink. Most likely will end up hitting both … 2hbh sharp cc and 1hbh for everything else. I saw a tip (Briones) that we should hit more dinks to middle than always going sharp cc.
 

vex

Legend
I’m at 6 months into pickleball … and thought I would look at my initial observation/guesses about key pball doubles skills and see if they held up. I think most did … but you had pointed out a very important (I would say key) doubles skill that happens before all four at the kitchen.

And that is the serving team trying to get to the kitchen. The rules disadvantage the server getting to the kitchen … and you can only score on your serve. For the serving team the key part of point starts on 3rd shot, drop, drive and drop, teammates advance toward kitchen and sometimes retreat. Your level will be limited based on your serving pre-kitchen advance to the kitchen skills. I know … I finally committed to improving 3rd shot drop skills and the results were immediate.

I think we would probably end up disagreeing on the utility, importance … risk/reward of baseline big pace and spin. Obviously a nice club to have in the bag (I do), but I see very good doubles players without much pace and spin. But to me that isn’t the key point here … the key point is get good at the serving team dance to the kitchen, and receiving team skills trying to make it difficult for the serving team‘s advance.
Play most 5.0 level players now and the stuff people can do to keep the serving team pinned is crazy. Baseline power drive? Blocked and sent off court to the side. Dropshots to the middle? Forehand speed ups to your feet. Dropshot to the kitchen player’s backhand? Earnie’d. It’s intense.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Play most 5.0 level players now and the stuff people can do to keep the serving team pinned is crazy. Baseline power drive? Blocked and sent off court to the side. Dropshots to the middle? Forehand speed ups to your feet. Dropshot to the kitchen player’s backhand? Earnie’d. It’s intense.

What would you say separates 4.0 to 5.0 pball doubles … say from most important to least important. When I watch gold/final matches on youtube, I don’t see obvious glaring differences in skills like tennis. I figure cutting out the errors with same skills has to be a big part of it … just like tennis. Doubles unforced errors kill.
 

vex

Legend
What would you say separates 4.0 to 5.0 pball doubles … say from most important to least important. When I watch gold/final matches on youtube, I don’t see obvious glaring differences in skills like tennis. I figure cutting out the errors with same skills has to be a big part of it … just like tennis. Doubles unforced errors kill.
Hand speed and consistency. If you watch JW Johnson or Ben Johns you can see their ability to speed up with accuracy just is on a different level. Also the ability to hit resets when you’re behind and the other side is hitting down on you. Collin John’s is particularly great at pulling resets out of situations the other side should win.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Play most 5.0 level players now and the stuff people can do to keep the serving team pinned is crazy. Baseline power drive? Blocked and sent off court to the side. Dropshots to the middle? Forehand speed ups to your feet. Dropshot to the kitchen player’s backhand? Earnie’d. It’s intense.
Yet, still some dumbos on this forum think this is an anaerobic "activity" of dinking, only.

The skill and precision required just to keep the ball low in doubles is as difficult as any tennis shot.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yet, still some dumbos on this forum think this is an anaerobic "activity" of dinking, only.

The skill and precision required just to keep the ball low in doubles is as difficult as any tennis shot.

let’s exclude tennis serve :-D

Tennis players pay their pickleball dues:

1) hit too high
2) smashed
3) rinse and repeat

That goes on for long enough to buy a half dozen paddles … 20 in your case. ;)
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Play most 5.0 level players now and the stuff people can do to keep the serving team pinned is crazy. Baseline power drive? Blocked and sent off court to the side. Dropshots to the middle? Forehand speed ups to your feet. Dropshot to the kitchen player’s backhand? Earnie’d. It’s intense.
I was playing a decent team a few nights ago and one guy hit around the post on severely angled dinks, twice. Starting to see more Ernes as the level increases. Anticipating DTL then Erne for the win.

As you said, the ability of a receiving team to pin the serving team is a hallmark of moving to a higher level. It creates so much pressure. This is where you must learn to third shot drop and dink to reset the point to neutral. Hitting through generally doesn't work unless you can hit a couple inches above the net hard and flat. That may give a pop-up for an easy put away volley. The higher percentage shot is a drop or dink.
 
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Bud

Bionic Poster
let’s exclude tennis serve :-D

Tennis players pay their pickleball dues:

1) hit too high
2) smashed
3) rinse and repeat

That goes on for long enough to buy a half dozen paddles … 20 in your case. ;)
Then, the exasperation of a more experience player wondering why you didn't drop or dink into the kitchen and the explanation that you come from tennis and just started playing... :-D
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Then, the exasperation of a more experience player wondering why you didn't drop or dink into the kitchen and the explanation that you come from tennis and just started playing... :-D

I told my new pickleball friends for months that I would rather hit real tennis strokes and lose than hit that lame sad looking 3rd shot drop. Then we moved up the open play hierarchy and really, really wanted to beat those dinkers … no matter the cost (hello beautiful kitchen … where are the cookies)
 
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vex

Legend
I was playing a decent team a few nights ago and one guy hit around the post on severely angled dinks, twice. Starting to see more Ernes as the level increases. Anticipating DTL then Erne for the win.

As you said, the ability of a receiving team to pin the serving team is a hallmark of moving to a higher level. It creates so much pressure. This is where you must learn to third shot drop and dink to reset the point to neutral. Hitting through generally doesn't work unless you can hit a couple inches above the net hard and flat. That may give a pop-up for an easy put away volley. The higher percentage shot is a drop or dink.
100%

I play almost exclusively on the left as a right hander so I’ve been trying to improve my Earnie-counter to the BH drops I get. Alotta work to do still.

I have yet to execute an ATP because it’s always my BH and it just seems so unnatural haha.

I’ve also largely given up on slice returns because I’m finding them to be too inconsistent and float/net/short prone against strong serves. TS is much safer but I hate the time I lose for getting up to the kitchen without a deep floaty slice. Might be a mistake but I like that I’m able to put basically 100% of my returns in play and deep.
 

vex

Legend
Oh that sounds impossible to defend.
You need just the right ball to do it tho. The sequence is usually 1) they drop shot to the kitchen near the side line or 2) you send a dink low and deep along the sideline usually to thier BH, they awkwardly defend it back with a safe floaty dink, you jump to the sideline to Erne it
 
You need just the right ball to do it tho. The sequence is usually 1) they drop shot to the kitchen near the side line or 2) you send a dink low and deep along the sideline usually to thier BH, they awkwardly defend it back with a safe floaty dink, you jump to the sideline to Erne it
You Erne the dropshot? I assume getting there before it actually drops?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
You Erne the dropshot? I assume getting there before it actually drops?

Ernie is a volley hit in the air before it hits the court. The rule is you can’t hit volleys in the kitchen with any foot/toe/paddle :-D touching kitchen which includes the line. You also can’t step in kitchen after volley from behind the kitchen due to momentum. Jumping on angle across/above the kitchen to past kitchen sideline is the one volley you get to hit close to net.

I have not seen one ernie in 6 months of open play. The only 5.0 that plays is when head pro/instructor plays.

I have no current plans of ernie hopping at 65 … Achilles already sore. :-D But I have hit one ATP (around the post) and several ITP (into the post:-D)
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
100%

I play almost exclusively on the left as a right hander so I’ve been trying to improve my Earnie-counter to the BH drops I get. Alotta work to do still.

I have yet to execute an ATP because it’s always my BH and it just seems so unnatural haha.

I’ve also largely given up on slice returns because I’m finding them to be too inconsistent and float/net/short prone against strong serves. TS is much safer but I hate the time I lose for getting up to the kitchen without a deep floaty slice. Might be a mistake but I like that I’m able to put basically 100% of my returns in play and deep.

I’ve gone through a learning curve on ros. From day one … ok 2nd week after adapting to this way too short racquet :-D … I hit aggressive deep flattish topspin ros. For one reason … it was the one shot I could try and get my tennis fix. Two things became apparent 1) seldom invoked errors from better intermediates 2) had to move quickly to be at kitchen for server’s 3rd shot. So now my mindset on ros (other than having fun mixed in hitting tennis ros … 1hbh ros always gets the wtf was that looks) is 1) hit any ros that makes their 3rd shot more difficult 2) if it also gives me more time to get to kitchen even better. Now my most goto ros is deep high spinny … middle, backhands if you can find them. Good players tend to prefer to hit their 3rd shot drives off of flatter shots than high spinny. I then watch to see how effective opponent is at 3rd shot drop off of deep high spinny … unless getting hurt by it will be most of my ros because I gain no stress/rush advancement to kitchen.

Other ros … either forced by opponent to mix it up … or tennis fix creeps back in:
- 1hbh slice … I got that back after moving from graphite Prince Response Pro to carbon face paddles … slice … short, deep, drive, floaty does seem to mess with even good intermediates
- sharp cc from left side to right handed opponent … sometimes can find their bh
- vice versa … sharp fh cc from right side to left hander … find that bh

Basically … I do not look at ros or serves in pickleball doubles as a chance to win the point (and I can hit aces). I look at it as starting the point with my best advantage.

The #1 thing that drives me nuts in pickleball is how much the game allows players to hide their backhands. At least in tennis doubles you could force players to hit bh ros … and if they cheated over too far enough pace (and two serves) could make them pay. With one serve in pickleball … do you really want to go for that 2 foot target (yes … too often … but glorious when you find it :-D ).
 

vex

Legend
You Erne the dropshot? I assume getting there before it actually drops?
The Ad player (usually a RH player) often has his BH corner targeted for drops. Against double RH teams it’s the one spot u can drop onto a BH for sure. The counter is good players will recognize it and step to the side and erne it with their FH
 
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vex

Legend
I’ve gone through a learning curve on ros. From day one … ok 2nd week after adapting to this way too short racquet :-D … I hit aggressive deep flattish topspin ros. For one reason … it was the one shot I could try and get my tennis fix. Two things became apparent 1) seldom invoked errors from better intermediates 2) had to move quickly to be at kitchen for server’s 3rd shot. So now my mindset on ros (other than having fun mixed in hitting tennis ros … 1hbh ros always gets the wtf was that looks) is 1) hit any ros that makes their 3rd shot more difficult 2) if it also gives me more time to get to kitchen even better. Now my most goto ros is deep high spinny … middle, backhands if you can find them. Good players tend to prefer to hit their 3rd shot drives off of flatter shots than high spinny. I then watch to see how effective opponent is at 3rd shot drop off of deep high spinny … unless getting hurt by it will be most of my ros because I gain no stress/rush advancement to kitchen.

Other ros … either forced by opponent to mix it up … or tennis fix creeps back in:
- 1hbh slice … I got that back after moving from graphite Prince Response Pro to carbon face paddles … slice … short, deep, drive, floaty does seem to mess with even good intermediates
- sharp cc from left side to right handed opponent … sometimes can find their bh
- vice versa … sharp fh cc from right side to left hander … find that bh

Basically … I do not look at ros or serves in pickleball doubles as a chance to win the point (and I can hit aces). I look at it as starting the point with my best advantage.

The #1 thing that drives me nuts in pickleball is how much the game allows players to hide their backhands. At least in tennis doubles you could force players to hit bh ros … and if they cheated over too far enough pace (and two serves) could make them pay. With one serve in pickleball … do you really want to go for that 2 foot target (yes … too often … but glorious when you find it :-D ).
I’d encourage you to grind your driving topspin serve. Will you ace good players? Nope. BUT - 1) you will get occasional unforced errors and short balls and 2) you can prevent players from hitting offensive returns targeting ur own BH.

My serve is basically: hit the line and force a BH from where they’re hiding it OR make them hit a FH on the run. Again, good players won’t be aced but they also can’t hurt you if you serve like that.
 
The Ad player (usually a RH player) often has his BH corner targeted for drops. Against double RH teams it’s the one spot u can drop onto a BH for sure. The counter is good players will recognize it and step to the side and erne it with their FH
Oh like a classic tennis IO FH with the added element of dodging the kitchen.
 
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