Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
We don't need to agree either.
Tennis will Shrink after Djokovic retires, it will need a New Federerlike player to take it out of the doldrums....
- Thread starter Razer
- Start date
Meles
Bionic Poster
Djokovic certainly is a VERY nice asset. Despite their injury troubles Sinner and Alcaraz are more than capable of carrying the game easily. Medvedev is a far more appealing character/player than Murray. Alcaraz is Big 3 level and Sinner is close enough or there already. Frankly Nadal destroying everyone at RG for the last darn near 20 years isn't all that compelling. The game may be better off with a more balanced field. 2024 clay field (and Madrid was horrific) still has some promise for RG, but this year may be surprisingly weak without Sinner at RG. Anyone with any sense knows that Alcaraz if he's healthy will finish off what should have happened in 2023, a drubbing of Djokovic at RG. Carlos won't start choke cramping midway through the 2nd set again.
(Kudos to Nole for bringing that out of him, but just a huge fluke.)
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic certainly is a VERY nice asset. Despite their injury troubles Sinner and Alcaraz are more than capable of carrying the game easily. Medvedev is a far more appealing character/player than Murray. Alcaraz is Big 3 level and Sinner is close enough or there already. Frankly Nadal destroying everyone at RG for the last darn near 20 years isn't all that compelling. The game may be better off with a more balanced field. 2024 clay field (and Madrid was horrific) still has some promise for RG, but this year may be surprisingly weak without Sinner at RG. Anyone with any sense knows that Alcaraz if he's healthy will finish off what should have happened in 2023, a drubbing of Djokovic at RG. Carlos won't start choke cramping midway through the 2nd set again.
Leave it to you to paint this vivid image and I know you've been waiting for this for a long time. Diamond age didn't quite get it done but I guess these guys will, or better yet age will do it. All jokes aside, no player is bigger than the game and once the big 3 are all gone, the game will move on like it always has. I just think to keep interest at its highest we need some interesting personalities and some great rivalries. Alcaraz has the natural charisma and flashiness in his game to make him a big star. I like Sinner but he seems more shy and introverted, and his game is not as appealing. I think Rune could be a great rival to them if he ever got it together, and he has lot of personality. Medvedev is 28 and his days at the top are probably numbered.
Meles
Bionic Poster
I've been saying that for a long time in tennis circles with tons of Djokovic fans. The fact that Alcaraz beat Djokovic a month later on his most sure thing surface I think leaves little doubt.
This has to be one of the stupidest threads of all time. Djokovic's most secure fortresses (Australian Open and Wimbledumb) have been assailed by Sinner and Alcaraz in the last year. I still think Nole could win the next three slams, but 2023 US Open might also be his last. I will admit with Sinner and Alcaraz both withdrawn from Rome and Sinner already questionable for RG that 2024 RG may be a golden opportunity for a Big 3 slam, but zero is still a distinct possibility. On hard courts Sinner and Alcaraz in 2024 have prime Djokovic numbers; that is some stiff competition and I'm quite sure their rivalry will sell extremely well with the tennis public.
Diamond Age wasn't that bad a call. I can't help that some of these fools have the worst coaching imaginable and Medvedev doesn't seem to be motivated to repeat at any event. And frankly how was I supposed to anticipate that a guy who lost two years of his career to a gimp elbow would suddenly get a new lease on life in 2021 as a servebot?(Djoko
) Thiem gimping out was another shocker which has allowed this rampage. Thiem had a real opportunity with Zverev floundering. Zverev finally might do something here in 2024, but still way too much of a pusher when the chips are down. Zverev finally has a 2nd serve in 2024, but Tsitsipas and Shapo still haven't learned how to slice or return. How was I supposed to know they would continue to be that stupid with their coaching? (With the current crop I'm not totally sold on JCF being right for Carlos.)
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Its about saying how morally right they are in their dislike for him. Has nothing to do with him giving their favs so many heartbreaks. Anyways, I'm not saying anymore on it. Bowing out of the thread.
Certain players receive unfair assistance, yet their fanbases also seek the moral high ground. It's evident that certain delusional fans were not engaging in good faith discussion or argumentation.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
The Alcaraz win at Wimbledon was a great win and the biggest win of his career. It's just after that Djokovic laid down the hammer and won the next 4 tournaments he played in a row, and beat Alcaraz twice letting him know he was still the best. Djokovic losing his grip on the game now I think is somewhat mental because maybe he's losing some motivation, plus I think he overdid at the end of 2023 when he should have opted out of DC, that exhibition, and United Cup and took a much needed break. Recovery is very important at his age.I've been saying that for a long time in tennis circles with tons of Djokovic fans. The fact that Alcaraz beat Djokovic a month later on his most sure thing surface I think leaves little doubt.
This has to be one of the stupidest threads of all time. Djokovic's most secure fortresses (Australian Open and Wimbledumb) have been assailed by Sinner and Alcaraz in the last year. I still think Nole could win the next three slams, but 2023 US Open might also be his last. I will admit with Sinner and Alcaraz both withdrawn from Rome and Sinner already questionable for RG that 2024 RG may be a golden opportunity for a Big 3 slam, but zero is still a distinct possibility. On hard courts Sinner and Alcaraz in 2024 have prime Djokovic numbers; that is some stiff competition and I'm quite sure their rivalry will sell extremely well with the tennis public.
Diamond Age wasn't that bad a call. I can't help that some of these fools have the worst coaching imaginable and Medvedev doesn't seem to be motivated to repeat at any event. And frankly how was I supposed to anticipate that a guy who lost two years of his career to a gimp elbow would suddenly get a new lease on life in 2021 as a servebot?(Djoko
Djokovic will be 37 in a couple of weeks though and he can't keep this up for much longer. It's already crazy impressive he was able to do it this long. His biggest opponent is really age because to me he showed in 2023 what he can do this new generation when he's playing up to his ability. However, he will slow down. So yes these guys will take over but I put that less on their level and more on Djokovic getting older, and his level dropping. Sinner has been very impressive this year though, no doubt about that.
I told you about your diamond age guys though. Lol. Djokovic had too much fire left in him to give his mantle up to those guys. Once his resurgence came, I saw another dominant run coming. I just didn't think he would be this dominant. Thiem's collapse was tragic. He was the one guy who actually could put Djokovic on his back heels and he would have been a real challenger to Djokovic if he had maintained his level from 2019-2020. I didn't think he would have such a steep decline so fast.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
I agree Joker does not bring excitement like Fed and Rafa did. He is boring and the only reason he leads in slams is from the last few years of pounding on mugs.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
It needs someone even half as epic as Nadal 
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Ahead? .... really?
Anyone with more slams can look like he is ahead overall but that is not what being ahead means. Djokovic was ranked 1 and ruling tennis from 2011 until now with some time in between during his injury phase when Fedal took control of tennis once again only to relinquish it to Novak when he returned back from his surgery.
Whatever lead Nadal had over Novak in Slams was because of he taking a lead early by maturing much earlier, but this doesn't mean much cause from 2011 Nadal was under Novak's shadow.
The baldy was ranked 2 behind Novak from 2011 till now and today he is officially second, and even when he was ahead in slam count to Novak he was behind Federer.... So your Nadal was really not ruling Tennis, the guy was never GOAT. Today Djokvoic is GOAT and rules over Nadal who is below him for eternity.....
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Apun94
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz, if he stays healthy and keeps improving, will finish as a bigger star than Djokovic. Yes Djokovic will have the slams and will most likely be better than Alcaraz as a player when both finish their careers, but his game and personality is a lot more attractive than Djokovic's and it's not even close. Also, even when now that Djokovic barely plays tournaments outside slams, tehe viewership numbers are very high. The game has certainly not missed Djokovic and rightly so
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Alcaraz might not win more than 5-6 slams, his body is not built to dominate tennis. To become a bigger star one needs to win slams, develop a fanbase over a decade, fanatics to argue in your favor, to fight for you.... all this comes with winning slams.... you won't find gael monfils or kyrgios having fans ready to fight for them...
So no, Alcaraz will need to win lot of slams if he has to develop stardom even compared to djokovic. Djokovic has a loyal Slavic army ready to fight for him, who does Alcaraz have? Spaniards? Only a matter of time before Alcaraz is forgotten as soon as a new young rising star emerges, already Sinner seems to have Alcaraz's number.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
"Djokovic has a loyal Slavic army ready to fight for him".
What does that even mean?
Will they kill people, if thet don't like him? I wonder what they will do when their Serbian tennis overlord retires. Will they keep his memory alive and – like today – flood any message board that speaks negatively about him? Or will they fade away once they have nothing to share except Nationalism? The Former Player board may be horrible when every discussion about Bill Tilden or Rod Laver is going to be infected by "Djokovic would kick his ass, because he's the GOAT and numbers don't lie, you're all FEDAL fans who refuse to accept Nole as your lord and savior".
I for one cannot wait for him to retire (and probably run for office in Serbia) because so many of his fans are delusional and polluting online discussions that are meant to be fun and informative.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Fight for him means fight verbally/by typing in a debate/discussion. Not actual fighting, they are not mercenaries/private army. You are taking statements too literally.
Djokovic isn't retiring anytime soon, he wants to play 2028 olympics you know.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
I was joking, you should know that. And the "fight" you describe here is exactly the type of annoying behaviour you see on this and other boards. What's the point of it? Do you really think this will help gain him popularity? Because it's quite the opposite. Every non-fan of Djokovic is sick and tired of this fanatic troll army. And you know what? I think he is too.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I mean, he can only face who is in front of him, so it's not his fault, but really cheapens things when you start comparing GOAT players. As much ado has been made about Federer's start, and beofre. Been the same argument going years back, but it's muddy at best. What is clear though when talking about tennis shrinking, which the OP implies, is Djo's lack of global appeal compared to Federer and Nadal already shrunk tennis, but Alcraz and Sinner, and a new crop of players are bringing the excitement and drama back, which is what makes the sport of interest.
Just an awkward transition point until we get Nadal and Djo to retire.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Based on...what? He is not a better player than Djokovic and not an ounce of charisma. while lacking the kind of spectacular, one-of-a-kind game where said charisma would never factor (e.g., Lendl or Sampras, who preferred to let their games serve as their "character"). So, how is Alcaraz going to "finish as a bigger star than Djokovic"?
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_phantom
Hall of Fame
Because that's a very low bar.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
_phantom
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz is already a bigger draw at every tournament.
Djokovic is popular among people who have connections to the former Yugoslavia region in one way or another, but he does not rule over all Slavic countries. People in the Czechia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria.... are not that interested in Djokovic.
I also think you are a bit confused by what you are seeing online. What is happening with the cult level support for Djo is more a case of a vocal minority. And it doesn't take a lot of people to appear like a crowd on the internet. You know for a fact that Djokovic is a third wheel in India, behind Fedal and by a large margin too, but looking at social media, you'd think he is dominating there.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz does have a spectacular game. Few players are more fun to watch than him.
DIMI_D
Hall of Fame
The great ALPHA!!!
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
We will never see someone on par with the Big 3 or a Fed like player again. Sinner was the only shot and his hip is falling apart already. The only course we are going to get is a MUG Rublev tour. A host of them . No big 3 talents though. At least none that will stay healthy anyways
Tennis will be gone due to loss of revenue and viewership before we see a big 3 talent
Tennis will be gone due to loss of revenue and viewership before we see a big 3 talent
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
It's amazing how so many "tennis fans" do nothing but whine and complain about the state of tennis. I swear, like 80% of the threads are some variation of complaining about weak era. If you don't like it don't watch. If something caused me so much visual distress, I would just do something else with my life instead of continuing distress.
With that said, last year was a rough year for tennis and the sport is clearly in a transition period sort of like the last transition period prior to peak Federer. This was inevitable once The Big 3 aged. I do think the likes of Alcaraz and Sinner are worthy of leading the next generation of healthy so I think there's plenty to be excited about going forward but you have to put aside the unrealistic expectations that every generation has to be Big 3 level good or else they suck and the sport is doomed. That generation was once in a lifetime good for any sport individual or team that's not likely to be repeated ever again.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Sampras, Mcenroe, Borg, Lendl, Connors have all had Big 3 type years and you could say they were all close in talent too.... So if Sinner and Alcaraz are not of that level (especially since the entire 1990s gen did not have even a Safin/Murray level player, let alone Big 3) then the sport will take a dip. Great talents should automatically come every year 10 years which is a generation, there is no excuse, Natural selection does not stop for anyone. If there is none for 1.5 decades since Djokovic then it will be a matter of worry.
basil J
Hall of Fame
Sampras backhand was solid in this match.
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
People here act like tennis didn't exist before the big 3 era
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Agreed. As in my earlier examples, McEnroe was already a star on the rise before he won his first major; after that, he quickly became a legend. Becker made history with his first major, and was a compelling personality that fans around the world found as appealing as his fantastic talent. Alcaraz--with two majors to his name--is not a cultural blip outside of the sport, and not "the person to watch" within it. Some go on and on and on about Alcaraz either being a star, or will be one, yet they have yet to explain how this is happening, or evidence of said stardom.
It does not exist, and there's a number of reasons behind that, if one takes an honest look at all things Alcaraz,. That said, his fans, who desperately cling to the idea that Alcaraz is going to "save" men's tennis, fail to demonstrate the hollow status they've handed to him.
messiahrobins
Legend
Wishful thinking i am afraid.
The reality is if you look across social media forums is Nadal won the GOAT debate in 2022. Fans were invested in tennis during the Big 3 Era. Nadal won the most slams in that era although Federer was barely playing since 2019. But at least Djokovic was, and Nadal beat Djokovic on his way to setting the slam record at 22.
Djokovic however won 4 slams when Nadal was injured and Federer retired so there were no h2h matchups. It was all after the Lord Mayor show. That is not my opinion, it is just what i see posted all over various forums and X and FB.
Also you are wrong again as Nadal dominated Djokovic 2012-2014. It is only post 2014, when Nadal and Federer were way past their best Djokovic won the bulk of his slams. That, to sports fans doesn't equate to goatness.
You contradict you whole argument saying Nadal was only ahead as he won more when younger then try to celebrate Djokovic when Federer and Nadal were not even playing!! Are you on twitter at all?
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Only numbers matter in the end.
Most ppl now say that Djokovic is GOAT, I have never heard anyone call Nadal GOAT, maybe you are one of the few people who does that. A guy with 208 weeks as Rank 1 does not have any claim for GOAT if he does not hold the slams record.
messiahrobins
Legend
Again you are making stuff up. The consensus is Nadal is GOAT (i dont actually agree as it happens as i dont think the Big 3 are necessarily greater than Sampras and Borg). Go to X, FB, REddit and indeed other sports forums.
Statistics dont determine a GOAT. Is Lewis Hamilton GOAT lol. Most NFL fans dont say Brady is GOAT QB. Many have Rogers ahead of him and Montana and a few others.
Yes, you need huge achievements of course, but you also need to dominate your rivals at the biggest events and have the highest peak level. Novak did neither.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
The bold statement is laughable...
Bud... Statistics determine who is the greatest on the court..... Off the court Federer has his clout and perhaps he still is slightly bigger than Djokovic? but Nadal definetly is not..... Nadal is probably 3rd now in terms of significance now if you add on court+off court clout..... overall Djokovic is the Greatest now ....stats matter.... Lewis Hamilton did not win the 8th title required to take him past Schumacher, he failed as Verstappen clipped his wings forever.... So no Hamilton is no GOAT but this doesn't mean numbers dont matter, the most important thing is numbers....
messiahrobins
Legend
You just contradicted yourself lol. As i say just pop on other forums. Shumacher isnt GOAT. Nobody has him over Senna .
mtommer
Hall of Fame
Or the tour should just hire a really great marketing firm.
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz winning 2 slams, 5 Masters and 13 titles by the age of 20 is ATG level stuff and if he had stayed healthy, those numbers could have been more gaudy. Sinner is a bit of a late bloomer relatively but his play of the last 6+ months is certainly an ATG level stretch.
Who knows where it goes from here especially in terms of their health but I think tennis is in goods hands going forward with those two leading the way. I do think The Big 3 has spoiled some tennis fans to the point where if these two don't play at Big 3 level for the next decade plus that it would be a failure.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
So Nadal is your version of Ayrton Senna who thrilled you more than anyone at his peak ?
Look I get your sentiment bud, Nadal must have thrilled you in ways that nobody did with his scintillating athleticism and raw power, but unfortunately in the end the world looks at numbers and the slams record is mandatory. Djokovic crossed Federer and became the best statistically with the Slams+Number 1 stats, before him Fed had this and before Fed Sampras had this.
messiahrobins
Legend
When did Djokovic beat even close to peak Federer to get the slam record? Senna dominated his rivals. Nadal was the most successful at the slams while he could play.
Nobody disputes Djokovic is statistically the greatest, everyone says it. The fact so many prefix it with 'statistically' is a backhanded compliment. Hamilton is statistically the greatest as well.
Leaving Nadal aside, i find it hard to put Djokovic ahead of Federer when at his very peak he was losing slams in 2011 and 2012 to way past peak Federer.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I'd like to see all the polls that are making him the consensus GOAT myself....something tells me they will be magically lost to the black hole of cyber space.
messiahrobins
Legend
Are you on FB ot X?
Purestriker
Legend
Will OP shrink when this happens? Asking for a friend.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Maybe our friend Becker serve might have link to such polls ... hehe... I mean we've never seen any polls in Media where Nadal was leading, it is either Federer or Djokovic, Fed lead those for decades and now Novak has started to exert his dominance in polls which is obvious ever since started to come near Federer's mark.... but where are the polls that had Nadal leading them ? Big mystery...
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yes. I have not seen any polls either and certainly nothing from the pros that give it to Nadal. It would be nice to just have some links or screen shots
Purestriker
Legend
The olympics thinks it's all three of them.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
There is no consensus on social media. Only people stating random stuff and arguing. Most of the time something pretty essential is lacking; facts.
Like now.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Tennis has two sets of objectives: the Grand Slam, the only distinguishing achievement for being the GOAT, and the Best of the Rest achievement with the majors count. None of the so-called "Big Three" ever won the Grand Slam, thus they lacked the talent and court understanding to reach that perfect status of GOAT, and where Nadal is concerned, he's could not reach the Best of the Rest level. For die-hard Nadal fans, and the eternally bitter Federer fanatics, Djokovic surpassed them--he is the best of this century's male players, leaving his rivals in the dust...but he too is not a GOAT player.
messiahrobins
Legend
I agree with most of that except for Djokovic surpassing Fedal ,as for me it all came too late, which i have only recently come round to. But i have seen on X some compelling arguments. If Novak had won more than 7 slams before the end of 2014, say 10 id have a different pov, or had he won W last year of course.
But your main point is valid. The Grand Slam is what counts, and the GOAT is Graf of tennis.
Omega_7000
Legend
I was the most ardent tennis fan and have lost interest because Djokovic's tennis is robotic/not exciting and the results are predictable with the lack of any young ATG talent for 15 years now apart from Alcaraz.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is not gonna roll over and let the youngsters win just because there is no ATG in 1990s gen, so even if you are bored blame the youngsters, not Novak.
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