Tennis without Djokovic......

ADuck

Hall of Fame
Ok, but even if that is case it's about even, and if we know that best 3 ever plays at the same time, lack of new atg is not surprise or uncommon thing. Add Murray in that story who is atg material and who suffered most against big 3 and that's about it... Nothing strange considering new atgs...
17 years might be a record, so I'd call it strange.
 

Fedforever

Hall of Fame
Ultimately I agree that it'll be beaten, but to offer a counter opinion, it might happen a lot later than you'd expect. I think it's very unlikely for there to be just one player playing as high a level as the Big 3 without another player playing at least near that level. I mean, is it a big coincidence that every time an ATG emerges, another one is there to stop him? It seems probabilistic that the top players of a single generation are never separated by huge levels.
We should be placing a bet on some 10 year old for 2045.......
 

beard

Hall of Fame
17 years might be a record, so I'd call it strange.
Record for what? You have 3 atgs in 17 years... Is it small number? And it's top 3 players of all times... You can't expect more to come when 3 biggest ever play simultaneously......
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Look how many Grand Slam Tournaments Nadal has missed or withdrawn from due to injury.

Then look at how many Federer and Djokovic have missed. It's not close. Nadal missed way more than both. Nadal should be way ahead of both of them in slams.

The numbers stack up. He missed a huge amount of opportunities to even play in certain slams, compared to his two main rivals. By law of averages, Nadal would almost certainly be way in front of both of them if hadn't lost so many opportunities to injury.

That's not overhyping Nadal and claiming he can't be beaten when healthy (he can). That's just the reality of the numbers.
Look how many majors both Djokovic and Federer have chosen to play INJURED. Nadal withdraws, Fedovic play anyway. It's impossible to assume that Nadal would win all or even some of the events he missed, just like it would be impossible to assume that Fedovic would win the tournaments that they'd played injured if they had instead been healthy.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Look how many Grand Slam Tournaments Nadal has missed or withdrawn from due to injury.

Then look at how many Federer and Djokovic have missed. It's not close. Nadal missed way more than both. Nadal should be way ahead of both of them in slams.

The numbers stack up. He missed a huge amount of opportunities to even play in certain slams, compared to his two main rivals. By law of averages, Nadal would almost certainly be way in front of both of them if hadn't lost so many opportunities to injury.

That's not overhyping Nadal and claiming he can't be beaten when healthy (he can). That's just the reality of the numbers.
Nadal's playing style has led to all the injuries as well as his triumphs though. So you can't have one without the other, and he is rightfully on 19 slams.

He may end with the record, but let's not pretend he deserves to have many more slams than he does in reality.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Nadal's playing style has led to all the injuries as well as his triumphs though. So you can't have one without the other, and he is rightfully on 19 slams.

He may end with the record, but let's not pretend he deserves to have many more slams than he does in reality.
I think the congenital foot defect (which caused the chronic knee issues) had more to do with his injury issues than his playing style. Not saying his playing style helped, but the underlying cause of his biggest issues over the years was down to a defect/medical condition out of his control. He'd still get injuries during his career without the foot defect, but probably nowhere as many.

Djokovic for me has just as physically intensive a game as Nadal's, but he's been blessed to remain mostly injury free throughout his career compared to Nadal.
 

ADuck

Hall of Fame
Record for what? You have 3 atgs in 17 years... Is it small number? And it's top 3 players of all times... You can't expect more to come when 3 biggest ever play simultaneously......
Why can't I expect it? I don't get your logic. It's the record for years between ATG career debut (or I'm guessing it is. I haven't looked at every single ATG's first year on tour and subtracted the difference between each)
 

beard

Hall of Fame
Why can't I expect it? I don't get your logic. It's the record for years between ATG career debut (or I'm guessing it is. I haven't looked at every single ATG's first year on tour and subtracted the difference between each)
How you calculatecalculated 17 years for atg debut?
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Doesn't speak well about the rest of the guys.
It still doesn't; esp. when the men's tour allows Roger "Methuselah" Federer to wade thru them like traffic cones during a driver's test! Don't get me wrong, the guys are great athletes, utilizing superior nutrition and physical therapies, but mentally they're lacking something! The BIG 3 have been the same for well over a decade and the NG isn't making me hopeful! Sascha's only won a couple Masters and the YEC after all this time of promise! Thiem's played a few major finals, but still hasn't gotten over the hump! The rest are the same; all kinds of ability, but they can't even beat each other consistently, much less Fedalovic! :unsure:
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
For fun, here’s a full list for Federer and Nadal. Obviously, this is subjective, yada yada yada.

AO 2008: Fed may be able to take this. He had mono, but then again it’s Tsonga in the final. 60/40.
USO 2010: 20/80 Fed. Nadal was too good and Fed wasn’t too great himself.
AO 2011: 80/20 Fed. Can’t see him losing to Murray, especially not the version that showed up in the final.
USO 2011: 50/50. On one hand, Fed surely put up the much better fight against Djokovic. On the other hand, Nadal has the match up advantage at this point in time.
RG 2012: 5/95. Nadal would have mowed him down in straights. Fed was pretty poor throughout RG 2012.
W 2014: 90/10. I don’t know who Djokovic played in his semifinal, but I don’t think that would be enough to beat Fed.
W 2015: 95/5. Gasquet in the final? lmao.
USO 2015: 90/10. It’s Cilic. Hard for Fed to lose here.
AO 2016: 70/30. I think he’d have beaten Murray.
W 2019: 95/5. If Fed ever lost a Slam final to RBA, I would probably leave the forum.

That’s about seven extra Slams for Federer, maybe eight. Man, the competition after 2013 without Djokovic would be completely in shambles. Now let’s do Nadal.

W 2011: 70/30. Tsonga could play a great match and beat him, but that’s unlikely.
USO 2011: 50/50. Read above.
AO 2012: 75/25. Murray played well in the semis, but Nadal would beat him.
RG 2015: 40/60. Can’t see him beating Murray+Stanimal given how poorly he played at this event. Since it’s Nadal, though, I’ll be generous.
W 2018: 90/10. He will never lose to Anderson.
AO 2019: 90/10. As poorly as Nadal played in the final, he’d be going up against Lucas Pouille... This would be the easiest AO draw of all time, without a doubt.

Nadal gets three extra Slams here. Maybe a fourth.
I still have more respect and reverence for Djokovic since he's always had to go thru Fedal to win his majors while Roger and Rafa have had their pigeons waiting many of those event finals! Fedal are the perceived GOATs and fan favorites, but Djokovic has had it tougher and's been just as successful, if not more where he's set records Fedal will never touch! :unsure:
 
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ADuck

Hall of Fame
How you calculatecalculated 17 years for atg debut?
The last ATG to appear was Djokovic, who debuted in 2003. Nadal debuted in 2001. Federer 1998. I'm getting this off the ATP website by the way.
Edit: If you want to add Murray he debuted in 2005.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Nadal's playing style has led to all the injuries as well as his triumphs though. So you can't have one without the other, and he is rightfully on 19 slams.

He may end with the record, but let's not pretend he deserves to have many more slams than he does in reality.
Thank you! If Nadal had had a little bit more of a brain with better advisors, he might be well ahead of Fedovic, but for his penchant to hang back near the back-stop w/ linesmen and ball-kids! He has to work so hard to beat "everybody;" even players outside the top 100 because of it! Playing that silly, defensive game is just so fk'n boring unless Nole is "working" him to death; ala '19 AO Chp.! That was hilarious after comments about him holding serve 60+ straight times so the fans can't say he was injured or not playing well! Nole was "in the zone" and kicked Rafa's arse! I can watch it over and over again! :laughing:
 
Thank you! If Nadal had had a little bit more of a brain with better advisors, he might be well ahead of Fedovic, but for his penchant to hang back near the back-stop w/ linesmen and ball-kids! He has to work so hard to beat "everybody;" even players outside the top 100 because of it! Playing that silly, defensive game is just so fk'n boring unless Nole is "working" him to death; ala '19 AO Chp.! That was hilarious after comments about him holding serve 60+ straight times so the fans can't say he was injured or not playing well! Nole was "in the zone" and kicked Rafa's arse! I can watch it over and over again! :laughing:
Nadal is not just a defensive guy.
 

beard

Hall of Fame
The last ATG to appear was Djokovic, who debuted in 2003. Nadal debuted in 2001. Federer 1998. I'm getting this off the ATP website by the way.
Edit: If you want to add Murray he debuted in 2005.
Looking that way Thiem could win 6 slams after big 3 puls out and reduce 17 to only 8... Or Zverev to 10 years... I think it's more logical to use year player became atg... But ok...
 

DSH

Legend
I'm not buying it.
On a fast-ish hard court, fed's game would've been more than enough to wreck havoc on rafa.
2011 fed is highly underrated
Nah!
Nadal played in the US Open 2011 final way below his standards because he was afraid of Djokovic at that point.

Against Federer the story would have been very different.
The Spaniard would have arrived confident if his rival had been the Swiss who, although he played that tournament at an excellent level, he was no longer the same dominator of the US Open (2004 to 2008), so he was already a beatable player.

Without counting, in addition, the wear and tear of his match against Serbian would have taken its toll on him in the following match and Nadal, being younger and in his prime, would have taken advantage of it very well in the final.
The Spaniard in 4 sets would have taken the title!
:cool:
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Nah!
Nadal played in the US Open 2011 final way below his standards because he was afraid of Djokovic at that point.

Against Federer the story would have been very different.
The Spaniard would have arrived confident if his rival had been the Swiss who, although he played that tournament at an excellent level, he was no longer the same dominator of the US Open (2004 to 2008), so he was already a beatable player.

Without counting, in addition, the wear and tear of his match against Serbian would have taken its toll on him in the following match and Nadal, being younger and in his prime, would have taken advantage of it very well in the final.
The Spaniard in 4 sets would have taken the title!
:cool:
Fortunately for us all and the record books of the game, Nole was having his 1st career year taking 3 majors and 5 Masters stopping the Fedal run going on since '05! Djokovic singlehandedly saved Federer's legacy for the time being since Nadal had been on a "real run" of his own from 2010! Remember, it wasn't as much fear that defeated him in all those finals in '11, Djokovic legitimately beat Rafa; even on clay in str. sets! Heaven knows what might have happened if not for Nole that season! :sneaky:
 
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