Tennisplayer.net. Is. Awesome.

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eaglesburg

Guest
Seriously. Tennisplayer.net is like a dream come true. There are endless helpful articles with more coming out each month. They cover pretty much every imaginable aspect of the game in great detail. Also, John Yandell is very accessible, whether it be through email or through the tennis player.net forum. Every month he analyzes one submitted stroke of one member. I have read these and they go into very deep detail. I haven't even mentioned the video archives yet...there is amazing high speed footage of a variety of players. You can see every aspect of the strokes clearly.
Overall, tennisplayer.net easily worth the $144 per year for any dedicated tennis player. I highly recommend it, and I thank John Yandell and other contributors for putting together such a terrific site!
 

Mack-2

Professional
Do they have instructional videos showing you the stroke fundamentals? Like the Rick Macci videos on YouTube.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ Huge jumps in level are not going to happen overnight.

Yeah, $144 for online tennis advice sounds like a great deal.

Compare that to a handful of tennis lessons. The detail and insight gleaned from TP.net can be a great adjunct to tennis lessons. And can be read/viewed multiple times.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Thanks everyone. And to answer about the basic strokes. Yes. The best presentations of Rick's teaching system (evolved from Brian Gordon's research) are there for the forehand and the two hander. I just completed a new teaching system series on the serve which shows all the pro options and then presents the best choices for most players. It's a magazine so if you look through the archives there are about 700 articles at this point from about 70 coaches who have worked with over 20 Slam winners. But also a lot from smart working coaches everywhere...You can try it free for a month btw.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
^ Huge jumps in level are not going to happen overnight.

I'd be impressed with any improvement. If we had nickel for everyone who thought they made some discovery from reading about tennis online - we'd all be rich by now. Better way to learn - find good players - play with them.

Compare that to a handful of tennis lessons. The detail and insight gleaned from TP.net can be a great adjunct to tennis lessons. And can be read/viewed multiple times.

I got a lot out of my handful of private lessons. Maybe you had a bad coach..
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
i'd be curious to see if after watching all the online videos, OP's problem with the upper body leaning/falling back during contact on his forehand stroke is fixed.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
... Better way to learn - find good players - play with them. I got a lot out of my handful of private lessons. Maybe you had a bad coach..

No I didn't have a bad coach. Irrelevant. I think you missed my point. More than one way to learn -- different people respond to different styles of teaching. And many respond well to multiple types of input. More of a holistic or a multi-prong approach to learning. Note also that I suggested that TP.net can be be a good adjunct to tennis lessons.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
No I didn't have a bad coach. Irrelevant. I think you missed my point. More than one way to learn -- different people respond to different styles of teaching. And many respond well to multiple types of input. More of a holistic or a multi-prong approach to learning. Note also that I suggested that TP.net can be be a good adjunct to tennis lessons.

Note also that there is value in the information presented (by this site and others) beyond just increasing your NTRP level. Information such as this can dispel myths and incorrect assumptions about strokes, footwork and other aspects of tennis. It can yield a greater understanding of physics, mechanics, psychology and other aspect of the game.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
No I didn't have a bad coach. Irrelevant. I think you missed my point. More than one way to learn -- different people respond to different styles of teaching. And many respond well to multiple types of input. More of a holistic or a multi-prong approach to learning. Note also that I suggested that TP.net can be be a good adjunct to tennis lessons.

Do people learn sports 'different ways'? Or is that just speculation.. Until we start hearing about people who improved greatly because of video/written instruction I will remain skeptical.

As a thought experiment imagine if we had one set of players - and they took private lessons and played say 10 hours of tennis a week. Another group did the same thing - only they had access to tennisplayer.net. Do you think we would see significant differences between the two groups? What if there was a third group that didn't have private lessons - but played 10 hours a week and had access to tennisplayer.net?

Here are my guesses - there would be no significant differences between the two groups - AND if we had a third group that didn't have private lessons - they would do considerably worse. I been playing tennis for years - and the trend towards rapid improvement is very clear - lots of tennis and high quality in person coaching.

I just had this discussion with one of my USTA teammates - without any prompting he told me - hey Pete the only way to improve is to take lessons. I got a coach from Bolleteri and its helping me and my wife.. I can't say I disagree with him. He has gone from 3.0 to 3.5 - and should make 4.0 by next year.

Not only is this how tennis works - its seems true for most sports. Skiing, golf, basketball - et al..
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Do people learn sports 'different ways'? ...

Absolutely. As I coach, I see this all the time. It's not just sports either. Any decent educator will tell you that students have different learning styles -- visual, physical/kinesthetic, auditory, logical, verbal. Many learn best with a combination of 2 or more of these styles. There are also those who learn best in a solitary environment while others learn best in a social environment. Even teaching others can lead to greater insight.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/sportscoachmag/psychology2/maximising_skill_learning_through_identification_of_athlete_learning_styles
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298967/

... Until we start hearing about people who improved greatly because of video/written instruction I will remain skeptical...

AGAIN, I am not suggesting learning from a site like TP.net as a substitute for on-court training with feedback from a coach. I maintain that it is a viable adjunct for many individuals. Perhaps the wealth of information provided by TP and other sites does little or nothing for you. This does not mean that it has no value for others.

Another value that information derived from TP and similar sites is for keeping coaches up-to-date with current research and thinking. There is a good chance that some of the info that you are getting from those private coaches of yours is from some of this current research/thinking.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Absolutely. As I coach, I see this all the time. It's not just sports either. Any decent educator will tell you that students have different learning styles -- visual, physical/kinesthetic, auditory, logical, verbal. Many learn best with a combination of 2 or more of these styles. There are also those who learn best in a solitary environment while others learn best in a social environment. Even teaching others can lead to greater insight.

Those articles were not peer reviewed studies that showed us any real evidence of different learning styles in athletics. You get that right? All you are doing is speculating that some people learn differently with regards to athletics without quantifying it in any significant way. That's why I asked the OP for his anecdotal evidence.. He says the website is awesome -but is it fun to read about or is he experience real growth on the court? I don't need iron-clad peer reviewed studies - I would like to at least hear stories about how a program worked though..

The quantification is the important bit. If say reading the inner game of tennis (a book) raised the average NTRP of a player .000001 percent I wouldn't consider it a good use of my time. The it can't hurt theory isn't that useful to me. I have no problem with entertaining the notion that it could help - I'd just like to hear more before I buy into it. There are a lot of good coaches that sell online coaching. And while it's clear that their in person training has had fantastic results - we need to see a lot more about how the ONLINE training helped people.

What I want to see out of the online help gurus is before and after videos of people who have taken their programs. It's not scientific because you might have gotten better without said training (you are still playing tennis). But its a start.
 

CoachingMastery

Professional
I think there is a common misunderstanding between, “Different ways to learn” and “Different ways to hit a ball.”

These are two very different concepts and each possess different interpretations of each.

“Different ways to hit a ball” can refer to different methodologies or technical applications of physically hitting a ball. From one hand to two, from open stance to neutral to closed stances, from weak eastern forehand grips to severe western grips, there are indeed many ways to make the racquet interact with a ball. In addition, there are different spins that can be imparted on a ball which will require other ways to manipulate the racquet within a swing.

“Different ways to learn” refers to the ways in which a decidedly specific shot or stroke is conveyed by a teacher to a student. (Or, how an individual perceives the information or observes the information if self-taught.) Do we teach verbally, kinesthetically, guided discovery, or choose to let the student try to learn bits and pieces completely on their own?

Unfortunately, while there are indeed many ways to hit a tennis ball, there are only certain ways that will both biomechanically, as well as within the laws of physics, allow a player to eventually hit the ball within the bounds of truly effective means. (Being able to hit with more pace, more spin, more depth, more angles, with more touch, with more disguise, and within a greater selection of choices AND all within a concept of consistency and confidence.) There are far more ways that a student can hit a ball with inferior mechanics that they simply won’t improve past a certain point, predicated on the limitations of the chosen stroke, grip, or body position.

In teaching, the instructor who has the greatest array of cues, analogies, tools, and drills that pass on the correct hitting information that falls within what I call an “Advanced Foundation” is indeed a valuable asset and valuable instructor. Likewise, a pro who understands not only the limits of any number of particular stroke choices, but how to help the student avoid the common pitfalls associated with those patterns, (because, let’s face it, advanced stroke elements are usually seldom comfortable or familiar!), is again valuable and, in my opinion, priceless.

Sites like John Yandell’s site (TennisPlayer.net) as well as TennisOne.com (which I am affiliated with), and other on-line sites that provide visual guidance, along with valuable advice from proven instructors, provide both the idea of proper ways to hit a tennis ball as well as provide a wide range of ways in which the student can grasp those concepts.

In my opinion, we need to be clear in the difference between learning and hitting.

With these tools, the onus then is on the student to actively engage in what is being conveyed. They must recognize, emulate, practice, and adjust as they progress, in order to make the information become relevant. The percentage of value will of course be predicated on the ability of the student to take the given information and make it their own. Some it will be very minor, perhaps even detrimental for a number of reasons: They didn't interpret the information correctly, they didn't know what their own body/stroke was really doing, or they simply ignored certain aspects of the instruction. But, for others, those who are capable of correct reasoning, who can emulate correctly, who can overcome the human condition to go back to what was initially comfortable, such information is indeed priceless. No different than any instructional book.

To try and quantify through before and after videos of individuals is meaningless. Because of the aforementioned diversity in learning and interpreting, one pro's advice may very well produce an individual who was very successful. Yet, the very next student may have no clue because of a wide variety of reasons and conditions.

Thus, from my experience, (45 plus years teaching and playing highly competitive tennis, and training countless top-ranked players), I believe that most will definitely gain very valuable information from sites such as those mentioned. Is it valuable to the price paid? Well, if you got one tip that improved your volley, or your serve, or your groundstroke, or your strategy for the REST of YOUR LIFE, would you not find the money spent worth it? Of course, you have to engage the information to gain that value.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
GC,
Well there are numerous before and after studies in our Your Strokes section. They range form 3.0 to pro players to grand slam champions. You can see clear differences.We had a dad send in a video of a kid (a 12 year old girl) with a perfect ATP forehand that he said he developed just from what he learned on Tennisplayer. But I think the point to remember is that nobody anywhere is quantifying anything about the effectiveness of teaching tennis--it's not cancer drug research. If I read the Jim Loehr articles for example and learn certain postures and attitudes and experience improvement of the control of my emotions and have more positive energy in my matches, or if I understand diagonals by reading Craig Cignarelli or Allen Fox and play better strategic points, or if I understand the role of internal arm rotation on the serve and find clear improvement in my serve and in my enjoyment of tennis, and also enjoyment of my increased understanding and improved knowledge for it's own sake, that is what I see as the test. To be honest there is a lot of info out there that is pure hype and marketed like internet miracle products. If I was going to use one word to describe our writers it would be authentic.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Seriously. Tennisplayer.net is like a dream come true. There are endless helpful articles with more coming out each month. They cover pretty much every imaginable aspect of the game in great detail. Also, John Yandell is very accessible, whether it be through email or through the tennis player.net forum. Every month he analyzes one submitted stroke of one member. I have read these and they go into very deep detail. I haven't even mentioned the video archives yet...there is amazing high speed footage of a variety of players. You can see every aspect of the strokes clearly.
Overall, tennisplayer.net easily worth the $144 per year for any dedicated tennis player. I highly recommend it, and I thank John Yandell and other contributors for putting together such a terrific site!
I think there can be no doubt of the huge value of that site. Even the forum is an excellent reference for more perspective on the material of the site.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I learned to serve from "Sonic Serve", a video camera, and lots of trial and error.

http://www.amazon.com/Nick-Bollettieris-Stroke-Instruction-Series/dp/B0019KDUPW

I learned to ski from "Anyone can be an expert skier" and a season pass to Alta/Snowbird when I first moved out to Utah 15 years ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Anyone-Can-Be-Expert-Skier/dp/0966128206

My younger brother learned to play golf from Ben Hogan's "Modern Fundamentals" and lots of trial and error.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Lessons-Modern-Fundamentals-Golf/dp/0671612972

I'm learning basic gymnastic static strength progressions from gymnasticbodies.com

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/

I don't think learning fundamentals from a book (or on-line video) is that uncommon.

I think Guy Clinch is completely backward. You can learn the mechanics and fundamentals of a movement (serve, forehand, golf swing, golf chip, etc) from a good video or book. But if you want to move beyond that, you will almost certainly need a coach. And his opening question is completely flawed (as pointed out by SA). No matter where you get your instruction (on-line, book, coach, etc), it's going to take time and practice to be able to execute what you've learned and put it all together to move up levels.

I don't even think Guy Clinch actually believes what he's saying. I think he's just being an antagonistic tool (like always). At least I hope so. Otherwise, he's probably the biggest fool I know.
 
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GuyClinch

Legend
But I think the point to remember is that nobody anywhere is quantifying anything about the effectiveness of teaching tennis--it's not cancer drug research. If I read the Jim Loehr articles for example and learn certain postures and attitudes and experience improvement of the control of my emotions and have more positive energy in my matches, or if I understand diagonals by reading Craig Cignarelli or Allen Fox and play better strategic points, or if I understand the role of internal arm rotation on the serve and find clear improvement in my serve and in my enjoyment of tennis, and also enjoyment of my increased understanding and improved knowledge for it's own sake, that is what I see as the test. To be honest there is a lot of info out there that is pure hype and marketed like internet miracle products. If I was going to use one word to describe our writers it would be authentic.

I always liked the articles over at tennisplayer.net - I read a bunch of the free ones - very enjoyable. I was just curious if the OPs glowing review translated into actual better play. I am glad it worked for some people..even if it hasn't yet for the OP..

I personally don't think its crazy to wonder about the true value of online instruction. I remember how you pointed out that now world number #1 Novak was entirely ignorant of how to hit a serve. He claimed its all in the wrist - but you convinced us its not. Good job - but you have to wonder how guys like Novak can be so ignorant of the game - and so incredibly good at it.

That's the first issue - and the second issue is how much value does it add compared to free online instruction..
 

GuyClinch

Legend
To try and quantify through before and after videos of individuals is meaningless. Because of the aforementioned diversity in learning and interpreting, one pro's advice may very well produce an individual who was very successful. Yet, the very next student may have no clue because of a wide variety of reasons and conditions.

I thinking meaningless is going way to far. Coaches who have proven track records of getting results from online instruction have a big leg up in my book. If there was some course here - and people were taking it and just starting to post videos about it.. Well you would have to take notice - and think about taking that course.

I been meaning to ask you - you still about keeping the plane the same. I notice that on high level pro forehands - the wrist certainly does hinge. It goes from fully laid back - to somewhat laid back at contact - all the way to a kind of neutral position after contact. Some would call this 'snapping' the wrist - even if its more a function of letting the wrist relax then actively snapping it..
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Great question about Novak. In general to master a physical motion athletes need an image and a feel. Words can point them in that direction. But when they start to try to talk about it, words are a different medium from the imagery and feeling of physical movement. Great players aren't thinking in words when they execute so when they have to talk they grasp on to concepts they have heard or been told that don't always match what they actually do. There is the famous Pete Sampras story about trying to give a junior volley clinic. When the organizer--Elliot Teltscher--asked Pete to explain to the kids how to volley his face turned white and he said: "I don't know how to volley."

I wrote a long explanation in some thread about the current research on the wrist. What Brian's work shows is that the players actually are inhibiting the flex, or the speed of the flex. Sounds crazy right? But in reality with the weight of the racket and the speed of the swing the wrist would come all the way around on every swing if it was completely loose. The key to understanding it is that the wrist angle is helping determine the shot line by creating the angle of the racket head at contact. A change of 10 degrees in the angle of the racket head is the difference between the two corners on the other side. The angle needs to be controlled precisely.
So yes your description is in general correct: more laid back, then less laid back, then neutral. But going inside out you well see the wrist is more laid back at contact and stays laid back longer-- again in general, although you can always find a piece of video that supports any argument. Going crosscourt from wide positions near the right sideline, the wrist will come forward more so the racket head creates the shot line at contact. And everything inbetween. Of course there are exceptions and things are more complex with the wrist with the extreme grips, but basically the mechanism is the opposite of what everyone thinks.
 
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JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
As for Tennisplayer versus all the free stuff. First of all, sadly, a significant chunk of that "Free Instruction," including some well known sites I won't mention, is basically paraphrasing (and usually bad paraphrasing) of Tennisplayer material and many of these guys turns out are or were subscribers... They'd get kicked out of college for that but it doesn't rise to the level of federal copyright infringement (unfortunately).
But I think the big difference (and this also applies to the paid instructional courses) is that no one person knows it all. I created Tennisplayer in part because I wanted to learn as much as I could from the reputable voices in the game. And to have a research laboratory where I could study high speed video to come up with my own answers. There are hundreds of articles from 70 coaches on Tennisplayer, including coaches who between them worked with or coached over 20 Grand Slam champions. But many of the best coaches we have aren't famous necessarily. And I learned something from each one--or I wouldn't have published them. Guys who pontificate on You Tube I find often haven't had that much actual coaching experience or done the basic research and so in many cases just have it wrong or incomplete. But it is free...The bottom line is the game is too fast for the human eye. About 20 times too fast. That's the main reason why there is so much disagreement. But as information and knowledge evolve I hope to continue to package it in a way that is easy to understand and accessible.
 
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