Tennisrecruiting.net a crippled bird?

[jcgatennismom]

New to this forum and ran into this old conversation. Learned a lot reading it and appreciate the hard work folks at TRN do. I ve been looking at the ratings of top 100 for a while and come from a pure number perspective with a question to folks or TRN.

Does anybody care about reclassing to “improve” your star rating at the end of 8th grade? Have there been any observations / studies on how that projects into the future?

Anecdotal-knew one kid who was 4 star in 8th grade. He repeated 8th grade and became a 5 star-think he was homeschooled or attended one of the virtual academies. Nice family. It worked for him-ended up playing for a top 20 D1 school. He still had to work his way into lineup-probably didn’t play line 6 into midway through his soph dual season but played dubs earlier. I think he turned 20 in fall of his freshman year. He was a regular in lineup his 3rd-5th years.

This decision could make sense for players who started tennis later, shorter/smaller kids, kids who could use the extra year for academics, eg to go from just college prep courses to more APs. However for kids already big for their age, already in top 10% academically, it could be counterproductive.

When my son was in 8th grade, he was a 3 star and his goal was just making varsity HS tennis at a state powerhouse vs concerns about college tennis. In retrospect he would have benefited from an extra year as he grew from a scrawny 5’5 early in HS to almost blue chip 6’2 at 18. With an extra year, he would have had more and better P5 offers vs mostly MMs. None of us have a crystal ball and we have no regrets. Do realize that this choice requires at least one year of private and/or homeschooling. For us, it was a priority for our son to have a public school education to have balance in his life and to be grounded. At his public school, students were allowed to take 2 courses online and leave at noon and still play on school teams-many on his team followed that hybrid model. Now in this post pandemic world, probably more athletes are hybrid or totally online and able to play for school teams.

 

[DannyOpris]

Wasn’t even aware of this until recently. I think as you mentioned it is a tough decision but from my perspective each parent of a performance tennis player should at least consider it or talk about the pros and cons.

From a pure number perspective I have to admit i was shocked of how big of a difference that makes in the TRN rank order. Granted there is a lag in publishing the ratings but i am familiar with top 200 list on both the 14s and 16s and the jumps in the rank order when you decide to move from one cohort to another are substantial.

Short term it’s almost a no brainer since it’s very hard to move up in rankings within an year if you stay with your cohort. Sounds like long term could help as well when thinking about school catch up , getting stronger and so on.


Personally, i have mixed feelings about this. What you said about having a well rounded individual resonate very well but at the same time when observing what happens…

 

[tennisfan17]

I will chime in as a college coach. We will use TRN sometimes as it can be helpful if we are on the radar for a prospective American but due to the amount of international players we recruit, TRn doesn't help us that often.

 

[DannyOpris]

Thank you for that perspective. I thought when looking at metrics the TRN ratings holds a pretty high weight in recruiting US players as one of the big three (national ranking, UTR and TRN). I am assuming when recruiting international the ITF ranking might be replacing the TRN. In general, i am hearing that international players have more drive and put more work to get recruited compared to US players. This might be a generalization. Would you agree with that?

 

[tennisfan17]

Thank you for that perspective. I thought when looking at metrics the TRN ratings holds a pretty high weight in recruiting US players as one of the big three (national ranking, UTR and TRN). I am assuming when recruiting international the ITF ranking might be replacing the TRN. In general, i am hearing that international players have more drive and put more work to get recruited compared to US players. This might be a generalization. Would you agree with that?

mmmmm.... I wouldn't say it is more drive or putting in more work exactly. Maybe on average they might put in more effort as a whole into getting recruited but are pockets of domestic players that put in similar levels of work. The biggest difference in my opinion is the mindset of potential recruits of international vs domestic students.

 

[LOBALOT]

Thank you for that perspective. I thought when looking at metrics the TRN ratings holds a pretty high weight in recruiting US players as one of the big three (national ranking, UTR and TRN). I am assuming when recruiting international the ITF ranking might be replacing the TRN. In general, i am hearing that international players have more drive and put more work to get recruited compared to US players. This might be a generalization. Would you agree with that?

What kind of stupid statement is that?

Kids no mater the nationality have goals and work toward them. Nationality has nothing to do with their ambitions and work effort toward achieving them.

Access to adequate coaching and the resources one country provides play a role in a player development and number of players as well as the countries focus on one particular sport or another (i.e. cricket in one country vs. say another i.e. not so much in the US).

In our neck of the woods here in the Middle of the West I see plenty of kids working their tail off at a sport, tennis, they have a passion for.

 

[DannyOpris]

mmmmm.... I wouldn't say it is more drive or putting in more work exactly. Maybe on average they might put in more effort as a whole into getting recruited but are pockets of domestic players that put in similar levels of work. The biggest difference in my opinion is the mindset of potential recruits of international vs domestic students.

What about the mindset is different?

 

[Casey 1988]

What kind of stupid statement is that?

Kids no mater the nationality have goals and work toward them. Nationality has nothing to do with their ambitions and work effort toward achieving them.

Access to adequate coaching and the resources one country provides play a role in a player development and number of players as well as the countries focus on one particular sport or another (i.e. cricket in one country vs. say another i.e. not so much in the US).

In our neck of the woods here in the Middle of the West I see plenty of kids working their tail off at a sport, tennis, they have a passion for.

The Rise of online tools/coaching has helped in sports like Tennis where you can have public courts, but no coaches like in parts of USA/Canada until Middle school and even then in Middle School you could have players who never played a match before so coach may have to work with the other players more. Also have more books on the sport on best % of hits on how to play specific opponents now then in the past. Both these items help players as well if no or limited coaching is avalible but you have opponets and courts.

 

[LOBALOT]

The Rise of online tools/coaching has helped in sports like Tennis where you can have public courts, but no coaches like in parts of USA/Canada until Middle school and even then in Middle School you could have players who never played a match before so coach may have to work with the other players more.

We get quite a few Canadian kids that come down our way and play from Ontario and man I am not sure what is in the water as they are producing some great players up there.

At one of this summer's ITAs a few Canadian juniors entered and they were pretty good.

 

[DannyOpris]

What kind of stupid statement is that?

Kids no mater the nationality have goals and work toward them. Nationality has nothing to do with their ambitions and work effort toward achieving them.

Access to adequate coaching and the resources one country provides play a role in a player development and number of players as well as the countries focus on one particular sport or another (i.e. cricket in one country vs. say another i.e. not so much in the US).

In our neck of the woods here in the Middle of the West I see plenty of kids working their tail off at a sport, tennis, they have a passion for.

sorry you took offense. It's not my point of view that is why I prefaced it with "I've heard" so let's keep it polite I happen to think that the amount of time and tournaments that US players put in is considerably higher than international players...my son being an US player. But with that said top US tennis colleges are recruiting a lot of international players...why is that?

 

[Casey 1988]

sorry you took offense. It's not my point of view that is why I prefaced it with "I've heard" so let's keep it polite I happen to think that the amount of time and tournaments that US players put in is considerably higher than internationally players...my son being an US player. But with that said top US tennis colleges are recruiting a lot of international players...why is that?

Schooling is better in other countries like Japan, Europe or even Canada so they are less likely to be forced to drop out because of grades. Common core on top of No child left behind has messed up USA and forcing from Corona Virus 2019 to go from where kids left off was wrong and I would have as president said all kids stay in grade they are in unless they want to test forward. Then force the test forward for all schools as an option from here on out only some schools can based on massive harassment to said kid or public pressure chose not to use but if none you are focred test kid to jump a grade but only one.

 

[tennisfan17]

What about the mindset is different?

At least in my (limited) experience I find that for so many junior players that are at the level I recruit for, they do not consider D2 a viable option and only look at D1. For women a 7.5-8.6 UTR and for men a 10.75-11.5 UTR. We compete in a conference where these levels are very standard but literally almost ever junior American player I have talked to in those ranges tell me they're too good for D2 and are only considering D1. More of the international kids I have talked to don't have this idea. Because of this, the way they go about presenting themselves is very different. If I think I am good enough for D1, then shouldn't it be the coaches contacting me and reaching out to me more often?
Plus being international, they have to market themselves more. At least for a majority of domestic students they have resources in place thanks to being closer or more aware of colleges near them. They do not have to necessarily market themselves to coaches in the same way.

 

[Casey 1988]

At least in my (limited) experience I find that for so many junior players that are at the level I recruit for, they do not consider D2 a viable option and only look at D1. For women a 7.5-8.6 UTR and for men a 10.75-11.5 UTR. We compete in a conference where these levels are very standard but literally almost ever junior American player I have talked to in those ranges tell me they're too good for D2 and are only considering D1. More of the international kids I have talked to don't have this idea. Because of this, the way they go about presenting themselves is very different. If I think I am good enough for D1, then shouldn't it be the coaches contacting me and reaching out to me more often?
Plus being international, they have to market themselves more. At least for a majority of domestic students they have resources in place thanks to being closer or more aware of colleges near them. They do not have to necessarily market themselves to coaches in the same way.

Also are lower/smaller D1 schools the players need to look at like in Upper Plains and Western Mid-west, nearly D2 schools or were only D2, 15--20 years ago and others in places where big DI/specific Collage Football League schools out shadow the smaller D1 .

 

[LOBALOT]

sorry you took offense. It's not my point of view that is why I prefaced it with "I've heard" so let's keep it polite I happen to think that the amount of time and tournaments that US players put in is considerably higher than international players...my son being an US player. But with that said top US tennis colleges are recruiting a lot of international players...why is that?

Understood. I guess I would have not seen the need to address the question on this forum.

I think Europe, etc. are doing a better job of developing talent and have fewer major sports (usually just soccer) to pull them away vs. in the US kids are certainly more involved in football, basketball, baseball, and now soccer.

Moreover, in my opinion the USTA does a very poor job with their tournament structure and development program. I think we are starting to see that with some of the very skilled players that are popping up on the tour out of the academies that rarely participate in the USTA process (If one can call it that).

 

[tennisfan17]

Also are lower/smaller D1 schools the players need to look at like in Upper Plains and Western Mid-west, nearly D2 schools or were only D2, 15--20 years ago.

For sure. Those are similar programs I am actively recruiting against for some players.

 

[LOBALOT]

At least in my (limited) experience I find that for so many junior players that are at the level I recruit for, they do not consider D2 a viable option and only look at D1. For women a 7.5-8.6 UTR and for men a 10.75-11.5 UTR. We compete in a conference where these levels are very standard but literally almost ever junior American player I have talked to in those ranges tell me they're too good for D2 and are only considering D1. More of the international kids I have talked to don't have this idea. Because of this, the way they go about presenting themselves is very different. If I think I am good enough for D1, then shouldn't it be the coaches contacting me and reaching out to me more often?
Plus being international, they have to market themselves more. At least for a majority of domestic students they have resources in place thanks to being closer or more aware of colleges near them. They do not have to necessarily market themselves to coaches in the same way.

As a D3 parent and huge fan of D3 academics and athletics I agree with this. I see so many kids (usually driven by their parents) with an unrealistic assessment of their skills and then when they come to that cross road and are faced with the reality that they are competing with a whole world of skilled players and aren't good enough drop out of tennis or play club without exploring the great opportunities that are available outside of D1.

I can't speak to D2 but D3 schools and the opportunities they present for academic and athletic achievement are amazing.

I don't mean to minimize D1 or what it offers as my son's coaches were all D1 players and coaches but simply mean to imply it is not the only opportunity out there.

 

[tennisfan17]

As a D3 parent and huge fan of D3 academics and athletics I agree with this. I see so many kids (usually driven by their parents) with an unrealistic assessment of their skills and then when they come to that cross road and are faced with the reality that they are competing with a whole world of skilled players and aren't good enough drop out of tennis or play club without exploring the great opportunities that are available outside of D1.

I can't speak to D2 but D3 schools and the opportunities they present for academic and athletic achievement are amazing.

Oh absolutely. Top 10 D3 programs compare to lower Mid Major D1s and top 120 D2. D3 tennis is so deep and has amazing academics and amazing competition.

 

[LOBALOT]

I happened to be at nationals today and saw some great play from kids demonstrating 100% commitment and skill that reflect the hard work that American kids have put into their passion for tennis.

 

[TennisBro]

I think Europe, etc. are doing a better job of developing talent and have fewer major sports (usually just soccer) to pull them away vs. in the US kids are certainly more involved in football, basketball, baseball, and now soccer.

Moreover, in my opinion the USTA does a very poor job with their tournament structure and development program. I think we are starting to see that with some of the very skilled players that are popping up on the tour out of the academies that rarely participate in the USTA process (If one can call it that).

Not that I am looking at your comment for the criticizm of the American tennis but for the parallel in between the EU-US, and I'd say Canadian, tennis organizations. There seem to be a few differences; one may be the training routines, another planning tournaments. Also, I see clay courts as an important standard to developing skills in EU and some EU camps more willing to negotiate the costs of training and living of its junior students. The whole process at the very young age prior to that 17th birthday of those fine talented kids is so complex and any little aspect such as food, accomodation, which surface you train on how much and how long, how often you spend time in the gym or which tournaments you play at what time may throw you off.

 

[TennisBro]

At least in my (limited) experience I find that for so many junior players that are at the level I recruit for, they do not consider D2 a viable option and only look at D1. For women a 7.5-8.6 UTR and for men a 10.75-11.5 UTR. We compete in a conference where these levels are very standard but literally almost ever junior American player I have talked to in those ranges tell me they're too good for D2 and are only considering D1. More of the international kids I have talked to don't have this idea. Because of this, the way they go about presenting themselves is very different. If I think I am good enough for D1, then shouldn't it be the coaches contacting me and reaching out to me more often?
Plus being international, they have to market themselves more. At least for a majority of domestic students they have resources in place thanks to being closer or more aware of colleges near them. They do not have to necessarily market themselves to coaches in the same way.

My 16-year-old son's at that very level of 10.75-11.5 UTR and I too wouldn't look at D2 but D1 for him which makes me as guilty as you well point out there. What you are saying raises the question of sponsorship and prospect of a pathway into the professional tennis after graduation. So; a) can a junior get full scholarship sponsored for D2? b) will longer periods of playing in D2 compromise the likelihood of playing in pros after the college years?

 

[TennisBro]

But with that said top US tennis colleges are recruiting a lot of international players...why is that?

To be honest, I don't know but guess; it's the money well spent. I believe the sponsorships, for international tennis players in the US colleges, are to cover the costs of the sport and education. That said, I sense the big brand names would like to stay international as well as competitive. Sorry if I am wrong but I couldn't help this assumption.

 

[tennisfan17]

My 16-year-old son's at that very level of 10.75-11.5 UTR and I too wouldn't look at D2 but D1 for him which makes me as guilty as you well point out there. What you are saying raises the question of sponsorship and prospect of a pathway into the professional tennis after graduation. So; a) can a junior get full scholarship sponsored for D2? b) will longer periods of playing in D2 compromise the likelihood of playing in pros after the college years?

I mean we have full scholarships available for athletes! Our athletes can get a full scholarship and get clothing and sometimes deals for gear. As far as going pro, d2 has had players get atp points and do somewhat well (KP pannu being the best case example) but even then people in general going pro from college is statistically low. If by the time you’re a senior in highschool and are under a 12 utr likelihood of going pro is even lower.

 

[TennisBro]

If by the time you’re a senior in highschool and are under a 12 utr likelihood of going pro is even lower.

I think that the UTR confuses some young players' abilities to become pros with all due respect. American colleges/coaches seem too heavy on the UTR rating but dealing with junior internationals from some parts of the world or just teenage players who play more often in areas with lower UTR ratings may require a better look at. Not judging you there but saying that the emphasis on UTR rather than junior world ITF rankings and accomplishments of the young players may be as important prior to considerations for those colleges or thoughts of future prospects.

 

[TennisBro]

I mean we have full scholarships available for athletes! Our athletes can get a full scholarship and get clothing and sometimes deals for gear.

That's good to know for D2 prospects. Thank you.

 

[LOBALOT]

Not that I am looking at your comment for the criticizm of the American tennis but for the parallel in between the EU-US, and I'd say Canadian, tennis organizations. There seem to be a few differences; one may be the training routines, another planning tournaments. Also, I see clay courts as an important standard to developing skills in EU and some EU camps more willing to negotiate the costs of training and living of its junior students. The whole process at the very young age prior to that 17th birthday of those fine talented kids is so complex and any little aspect such as food, accomodation, which surface you train on how much and how long, how often you spend time in the gym or which tournaments you play at what time may throw you off.

Understanding that this is anecdotal but I know 3 kids that were shipped off to Nadal's academy all through their teenage years and through high school and they washed out. I agree we need more clay court play here in the states (my son happens to be very good on the surface) but there is more to it than that. They also spent a fortune of $$$$ doing it so it certainly wasn't an affordable option.

So these kids washed out and certainly one can say they were not up to snuff but then that defeats the argument that playing on clay/cheaper play is what makes European play better.

By the way they all hated their experience there.

 

[LOBALOT]

I think that the UTR confuses some young players' abilities to become pros with all due respect. American colleges/coaches seem too heavy on the UTR rating but dealing with junior internationals from some parts of the world or just teenage players who play more often in areas with lower UTR ratings may require a better look at. Not judging you there but saying that the emphasis on UTR rather than junior world ITF rankings and accomplishments of the young players may be as important prior to considerations for those colleges or thoughts of future prospects.

I have a mixed opinion on this. There are certainly some great players from Europe for sure but I also see a lot of coaches that rely on their agent to ship kids over and more often than not the kids show up with inflated UTRs and they just aren't that great compared to what their UTR was and their UTR inevitable goes VVVVVV.

 

[Casey 1988]

I think that the UTR confuses some young players' abilities to become pros with all due respect. American colleges/coaches seem too heavy on the UTR rating but dealing with junior internationals from some parts of the world or just teenage players who play more often in areas with lower UTR ratings may require a better look at. Not judging you there but saying that the emphasis on UTR rather than junior world ITF rankings and accomplishments of the young players may be as important prior to considerations for those colleges or thoughts of future prospects.

Now with more and more cameras on phones even in second world or developing countries, people can send in film of a kid playing to the schools by if no computer put on YouTube and send the recruiters a link to specific video.

 

[LOBALOT]

Now with more and more cameras on phones even in second world or developing countries, people can send in film of a kid playing to the schools by if no computer put on YouTube and send the recruiters a link to specific video.

I just see some really lazy coaches out there. Instead of working and recruiting they pick up the phone... "He Ubaldo... Ship me 3 10.75 UTR kids for the fall season."

Boom done.

 

[Casey 1988]

I just see some really lazy coaches out there. Instead of working and recruiting they pick up the phone... "He Ubaldo... Ship me 3 10.75 UTR kids for the fall season."

Boom done.

On both sides I see people being lazy and not doing anything mainly because the governments of the world are not working right with leaders being lazy or ineffective with worst ones playing politics with the people of said country, so why should we work if the world is going downhill?

 

[TennisBro]

I have a mixed opinion on this. There are certainly some great players from Europe for sure but I also see a lot of coaches that rely on their agent to ship kids over and more often than not the kids show up with inflated UTRs and they just aren't that great compared to what their UTR was and their UTR inevitable goes VVVVVV.

This is exactly why I've just picked on UTR ratings. Some coaches know well how to "play the UTR ratings" and so choose tournaments/matches for their players to pump up those numbers. They also may be under the stress and pressure from sponsors, parents and perhaps employers to do everything they can to make their players standing out. Both EU and NA have the means to do that but Asia or Africa don't unless willing to travel frequently. All in all, rating juniors at ages 16-17 is a mission impossible; taking chances away from ones that are in "weak UTR areas" is tough.

 

[TennisBro]

I just see some really lazy coaches out there. Instead of working and recruiting they pick up the phone... "He Ubaldo... Ship me 3 10.75 UTR kids for the fall season."

Boom done.

I am not sure @Casey 1988 meant that recording the junior players for the purpose of recruiting is just sitting on the arse and scrolling down the cell phone for pics/videos. I believe that there are improvements to be done when judging international junior tennis players when UTR may be monopolized and manipulated. The poster may have a point as those that recruit for US colleges could consider players who mostly play outside their radars through the players' links and their effort demonstrated aside their achievements too. Our technologies have not only offered as ways to manipulate them but also methods we can use to look deeper in the matter (while sitting lazily)

 

[TennisBro]

Understanding that this is anecdotal but I know 3 kids that were shipped off to Nadal's academy all through their teenage years and through high school and they washed out. I agree we need more clay court play here in the states (my son happens to be very good on the surface) but there is more to it than that. They also spent a fortune of $$$$ doing it so it certainly wasn't an affordable option.

So these kids washed out and certainly one can say they were not up to snuff but then that defeats the argument that playing on clay/cheaper play is what makes European play better.

By the way they all hated their experience there.

Over two years ago, when my now 16-year-old son was 13 (and 10 months), I was in negotiations with the Nadal Academy and Sanchez Cassal Academy in Spain. Both were heavy on UTR rating and asked for my son to be schooled in their educational institution somewhere there. All that prompted me to think that I'd have to pay so much for the school (they suggested) and training that I'd not be able to afford it and to assume they did not believe my son was at a high enough level of tennis then. I had coached my son from his age of 3 and knew his level (sent videos to them), and I also had homeschooled my boy for as long (except a couple years in G6 and G7 of IB school). To make my story short, I felt, Nadal/Sanchez Cassal farms had deep pockets and nets spread for harvesting.

The most valuable experience my son got from a very short 3-month training with a former mediocre ATP player that had a lot of passion for tennis and development of young talent. Unlike Nadal/Sanchez Cassal chains that group many kids and treat them collectively and indiscriminately, this 40 year old French working tennis coach in a Barcelona academy has been able to give my son so much to keep and work with till this very day when my son is fighting for the dream top 100 in junior ITF rankings. I guess what I am saying is that there's a difference when care is given or when business is done.

 

[Casey 1988]

I am not sure @Casey 1988 meant that recording the junior players for the purpose of recruiting is just sitting on the arse and scrolling down the cell phone for pics/videos. I believe that there are improvements to be done when judging international junior tennis players when UTR may be monopolized and manipulated. The poster may have a point as those that recruit for US colleges could consider players who mostly play outside their radars through the players' links and their effort demonstrated aside their achievements too. Our technologies have not only offered as ways to manipulate them but also methods we can use to look deeper in the matter (while sitting lazily)

No, he never replied to me about my comment saying this was lazy but was saying coaches are too lazy at universities/collages/tech school and trainers/coaches are too lazy to make the videos was the point I kind of interpreted. Because in my comment I said they could send in Videos now easier then ever at some point as if implying this should be done more.

 

[TennisBro]

Thank you @Casey 1988 and sorry @LOBALOT

With my age, patience and reading skills, I fear I am going down a bit

 

[Casey 1988]

Thank you @Casey 1988 and sorry @LOBALOT

With my age, patience and reading skills, I fear I am going down a bit

Nah not mad becuse if I was, I would have used ALL CAPS in parts.

 

[DannyOpris]

Some good arguments and thoughts related to the college path and recruiting. On the original topic of this thread and strictly speaking on the impact that some of these metrics have I would say that US junior players have more pressure compared to international players versus just working on fundamentals, liking the sport in the long run and also being realistic about the odds of making it pro. There is no pressure to reclass to artificially inflate your TRN outside US. We played in Europe and we have yet to see players pulling out as injured or ill before a match is scheduled to not affect UTR. Worst instances are pulling during a match when starting to lose to a lower ranked player. No tool or system of measuring is perfect. My perception so far from playing both is that US junior tennis is more metric driven compared to Europe junior tennis and that has some unintended consequences and impacting players mindset. On the flip-side i have plenty of anecdotes of internationally well-know academies failing to deliver on the hype.

I also think that any player that’s on the track to play college tennis needs to be realistic about chances to turn pro which i believe is around 1% and should think about the full spectrum of wonderful opportunities to play tennis in US and not just focus on top D1 schools.

 

[LOBALOT]

Thank you @Casey 1988 and sorry @LOBALOT

With my age, patience and reading skills, I fear I am going down a bit

I have enjoyed our discussion. It is a good topic.

Soon it will be in the rear view mirror for me and my wife as tennis parents. My son starts his senior year shortly and with all the rules changes being discussed I will not be able to keep up.

He will be playing one singles for the first time as last year their previous one singles came back and took a COVID year so that will be fun to watch and see what he does with the opportunity.

 

[LOBALOT]

Some good arguments and thoughts related to the college path and recruiting. On the original topic of this thread and strictly speaking on the impact that some of these metrics have I would say that US junior players have more pressure compared to international players versus just working on fundamentals, liking the sport in the long run and also being realistic about the odds of making it pro. There is no pressure to reclass to artificially inflate your TRN outside US. We played in Europe and we have yet to see players pulling out as injured or ill before a match is scheduled to not affect UTR. Worst instances are pulling during a match when starting to lose to a lower ranked player. No tool or system of measuring is perfect. My perception so far from playing both is that US junior tennis is more metric driven compared to Europe junior tennis and that has some unintended consequences and impacting players mindset. On the flip-side i have plenty of anecdotes of internationally well-know academies failing to deliver on the hype.

I also think that any player that’s on the track to play college tennis needs to be realistic about chances to turn pro which i believe is around 1% and should think about the full spectrum of wonderful opportunities to play tennis in US and not just focus on top D1 schools.

I agree about the pressure thing and kids pulling out of matches. It is very frustrating to see and it happens all the time. We always told our son he was in the backdraw because he needed to improve and you do that by competing and playing and a fair amount of the time in the later rounds we would inevitably get a call from the tournament director that his opponent had pulled out.

Parents do put too much pressure on their kids. There is another thread out here about kids that get ready to make a choice of school and when they don't get into D1 they quit instead of looking at other divisions that relates to this.

 

[TennisBro]

I have enjoyed our discussion. It is a good topic.

Soon it will be in the rear view mirror for me and my wife as tennis parents. My son starts his senior year shortly and with all the rules changes being discussed I will not be able to keep up.

He will be playing one singles for the first time as last year their previous one singles came back and took a COVID year so that will be fun to watch and see what he does with the opportunity.

Aren't there choices in the field of sport/tennis after your son graduates? Or, isn't there anything after the senior year for your family as tennis parents? Can you try your son in Futures, like M15 to start with? My son got his first ITF point in men's category and ATP point at 15 when he was at UTR 10.5

 

[jcgatennismom]

Aren't there choices in the field of sport/tennis after your son graduates? Or, isn't there anything after the senior year for your family as tennis parents? Can you try your son in Futures, like M15 to start with? My son got his first ITF point in men's category and ATP point at 15 when he was at UTR 10.5

There can be a wild variation in the level of Futures in US vs globally. Even though my son only played a couple Futures a year during college summers or in Nov, twice he had to play UTR 13.8 in the Qualis and he did win one of them. I can’t see a 10.5 winning 2-3 matches in a US Future starting in Qs. In US Future Qs there can be ITA ranked players, top juniors-for another match son had to play NCAA singles SFist in Qualis. We see collegians playing challengers but those are limited WCs; many still have to start tourneys in F Qualis. That said it is still worth it to try and play. However there are other prize $$ events including UTR PTT, other UTR and USTA platform $ events where players can earn $750-$3K. Some events provide housing to seeds or if players have a friend of a friend to stay with, they can play tourneys occasionally while working FT as a coach or if remotely in a corporate job. Even some of the ITA (USTA platform) summer events were prize $ and those would be much easier than a Future. The ITA summer national champs held now only has two guys ranked around WTN 4, the rest of the top half under WTN, and the other half WTN 10-20. I would expect most of the guys playing even in Future Qualis are WTN 3-6 with most below WTN 5 or above UTR 12.5. Few players without a WC will win get in MD without a UTR 13+ at least in summer and fall. Some high level international collegians may stay and play in US during the summer as well as most domestic collegians and of course many top collegians play Futures in fall. Now Jan-May there is a possibility of easier draws. My son played his last Future 2 1/2 years ago. He qualified only to lose 6-7 in the 3rd in MD 1st rd. His former opponent is now top 300 ATP. There is so much potential talent from collegians, but even those who break top 100 and or top 50 struggle to stay there-many fall out of top 150. At least there are multiple options to play post collegians and to have a side hustle of coaching if desired if player joins corporate world.

 

[LOBALOT]

Aren't there choices in the field of sport/tennis after your son graduates? Or, isn't there anything after the senior year for your family as tennis parents? Can you try your son in Futures, like M15 to start with? My son got his first ITF point in men's category and ATP point at 15 when he was at UTR 10.5

Sorry for the delay. My wife and I were having so much fun watching the great play at the Boys 16/18 nationals that we stayed there to watch it through to conclusion. It was some great tennis. MSU has a player there with Forbes and he is going to be amazing for them. Jack Kennedy is crazy good and just 16 or whatever to play like that. He has a championship in his future.

We then raced home, did laundry and split for Cincinnati and just got here.

One can say our family is a bit nutty when it comes to our passion for tennis.

To answer your question, my son did a medical internship this summer and is taking the MCAT in month. Hopefully, his aspirations work for him. If they do he probably won't have a lot of time for tennis in the next 8 years.

Like I said we have a passion for this sport but as you can see we also have a realistic view of where he is at in relation to anything further. He has been all conference all of his 3 years, is on the schools long standing singles record book should he have a good senior season and his team has made the NCAAs every year he has played but one eventually needs to focus on the future and what comes next.

Tennis will always be part of his life though that is for sure.

 

[TennisBro]

@LOBALOT you truly are a nutty tennis family but you also are smart about decisions you and your family make which may divide you from me and my crazy tennis family. We've put literally everything into our now 16-year-old son and expect him to perform professionally. Don't get me wrong as my boy wants it and stresses himself as much but now he looks at the option of NCAA if he gets in with the full scholarship offered. Thank you for letting me know that I am not the only one with a family that eats, sleeps and breathes tennis. Have a good Cinci trip there!

 

[jcgatennismom]

@LOBALOT you truly are a nutty tennis family but you also are smart about decisions you and your family make which may divide you from me and my crazy tennis family. We've put literally everything into our now 16-year-old son and expect him to perform professionally. Don't get me wrong as my boy wants it and stresses himself as much but now he looks at the option of NCAA if he gets in with the full scholarship offered. Thank you for letting me know that I am not the only one with a family that eats, sleeps and breathes tennis. Have a good Cinci trip there!

As a parent you can hope for your son’s success but that is a lot of pressure on a kid to expect him to become a pro. U mentioned he has trained since he was 3. Some kids get injured and some even burn out. I hope you will encourage your son to find some other outlets or interests and enjoy some downtime. I hope he gets to explore some of the cities he travels to, meet some non tennis friends, etc. Training, competition and school take a lot of time but he is only 16 once. Allow him to carve out a few hours a week to do normal 16yo activities

. I hope he finds the right program and coach in college. College tennis is different esp in the spring since it is a team sport, and players must have a team attitude, eg a player may play his line when less than 100% knowing he has a good chance of losing but his team has a better chance of winning with him staying in so others dont have to move cup a line. The joy of winning a big match together creates memories a player doesn’t experience with an individual win. I am glad so many top players now go to college and get to share those experiences. Sure there are Davis Cup team events but college takes the team experience to a deeper level. U have coached or been involved in your son’s training for many years. U will have to let go and let the coach run the show when he is in college

 

[LOBALOT]

@LOBALOT you truly are a nutty tennis family but you also are smart about decisions you and your family make which may divide you from me and my crazy tennis family. We've put literally everything into our now 16-year-old son and expect him to perform professionally. Don't get me wrong as my boy wants it and stresses himself as much but now he looks at the option of NCAA if he gets in with the full scholarship offered. Thank you for letting me know that I am not the only one with a family that eats, sleeps and breathes tennis. Have a good Cinci trip there!

That is so nice! You as well! Good luck with your son and his goals.

Having kids is the best learning experience I have ever had about how we learn from them and then we add our experiences and then they learn from us and it is a feedback loop.

 

[mikej]

@LOBALOT We've put literally everything into our now 16-year-old son and expect him to perform professionally.

yikes

 

[LOBALOT]

deleted

 

[LOBALOT]

@LOBALOT you truly are a nutty tennis family but you also are smart about decisions you and your family make which may divide you from me and my crazy tennis family. We've put literally everything into our now 16-year-old son and expect him to perform professionally. Don't get me wrong as my boy wants it and stresses himself as much but now he looks at the option of NCAA if he gets in with the full scholarship offered. Thank you for letting me know that I am not the only one with a family that eats, sleeps and breathes tennis. Have a good Cinci trip there!

Thank you. Man I wish you and your son luck. The play at Cincinnati has been great. All I see a ton of 6'3"+ freakish athletes from all over the world banging heads against each other. I just wonder if just spending for the best instruction 24x7 is enough if somehow a kid isn't born huge, as fast a gazelle, etc.

 

[andfor]

yikes

Remember Brad!

 

[mikej]

Remember Brad!

I had exactly that thought, almost mentioned it

Glad Deiton has found some coaching opportunities etc, but professional success is a mighty tough ask even for the world’s best juniors

 

[TennisBro]

I had exactly that thought, almost mentioned it

Glad Deiton has found some coaching opportunities etc, but professional success is a mighty tough ask even for the world’s best juniors

When a 15-16 year old junior wins first few hundred bucks in M15 or M25, he (she) won't let it go. The experience of that is like an addictive drug. It's so important to make sure such kids don't start flying high in the sky with their dreams. The road to future sure should have more options at this vulnerable time. What is tough for those kids is the education and support that sponsors could provide a bit better than they have with some young players who'd like to be more independent than hooked up on an academy or a coach.