Tension with flying clamps

Rafedovic

Rookie
Say you are using flying clamps to string at 40lbs. Just assume that when you clamp, you have 40lbs on the two strings being clamped together. When tension is released on one string, after clamping, how much tension is applied to the part of the other string that is holding all the tension? 80lb? How much does over-tensioning this small piece of string, between the clamp and the frame, stretch it and reduce the overall tension of that string? Is it negligible? Maybe it’s even more important to clamp as close to the frame as possible with flying clamps. Is it enough to warrant buying a machine with fixed clamps?
 
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esgee48

G.O.A.T.
Answer is 40#. Tension is not additive. With floating clamps or any clamps, clamp them as close to the frame as possible. Just do not this so that they interfere with the stringing process. If you know what you are doing, stringers with basic machines can produce just as consistent a result as stringers with more bells-and-whistles machines. Just takes them longer to do it; 40 minutes vs 15/20 minutes. If you had to make a living doing this, time is $, so you can opt for the $$ machine. Or if you have OCD, you opt for something with more bells. :rolleyes:
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
OK, thanks. Maybe I have OCD :oops: I just bought more flying clamps so I can clamp both sides of the mains the same way. I only had one small and one large clamp, so I had to use a small clamp for one side of the mains and a large for the other. The are nice clamps though, I bought Eagnas because I don’t like the look of those plastic ones. OCD.
 

Wes

Professional
Maybe it’s even more important to clamp as close to the frame as possible with flying clamps.
It's always important, regardless of what type of clamps/machine one has.
Standard operating procedure.

It drives me insane when I see some stringers clamp off far from the grommet/frame. :mad:
Sometimes it's even 2" from the frame. :eek:
 

esm

Hall of Fame
I have a drop weight with the supplied 2 x fly clamps - the above advices are 100% vital.
I always take my time to pull the tension and clamp properly. With mains you obviously need both clamps for the left and right sides, and i use both clamps for when string crosses too.
16x19 usually takes me around 50 mins from the moment i start pulling the string through the grommets (after measure/cut string(s) to length and mount). It is usually around an hour for 18x20.
I string for myself and friends, so I do not need to break a forum record per stringing job :X3:
I suggest, if in doubt, you can use a String Meter to check while you are stringing. 8-B
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
It takes me well over an hour from start to finish but I’m very careful, it’s a fun hobby! I’ll buy a string meter soon, despite its limitations, it’ll help me pick up my mistakes more easily and learn. I don’t go through strings fast enough to rack up fast experience so I’m doing mates strings for the price of the string.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Say you are using flying clamps to string at 40lbs. Just assume that when you clamp, you have 40lbs on the two strings being clamped together. When tension is released on one string, after clamping, how much tension is applied to the part of the other string that is holding all the tension? 80lb?
LOL no tension is applied when you release the tension. You basically have a loop of string being held by a clamp. After tensioning the 6th main for example the frame is holding 40# of tension on the 5th string (assuming no tension loss which is impossible) through the clamp and around the frame to the 6th main. The frame then holds 40# on the 5th and 6th mains (assuming no loss) down to the clamp to the tensioner. When the tensioner is released the clamp will want to twist because there is only 40# on 1 side and 80# on the other. The 2 strings between the clamp and the frame apply 80# to one side of the clamp and the tensioner and frame apply 40# on each string to the other. When the tensioner is released the 2 sides will equalize and than small section between the camp and the frame on the 5th string goes way up.

Instead of buying 2 new cheap flying clamps to use 2 clamps per side you could use a starting clamp. Use 2 flying clamps per side and your starting clamp to hold the other. Then you only encounter this issue switching sides.

EDIT: You see this all the time stringing crosses with 1 flying clamp. When the clamp is moved the tensioner pull the string farther out even at a lower tension. On an eCP it auto corrects. On a DW the arm falls. On a LO you just loose tension with no additional stretch unless you re-apply tension.
 
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Rafedovic

Rookie
LOL no tension is applied when you release the tension.
Hey Irvin, I think you misunderstood my question. I’m referring to the single string left holding all the tension on one side of the clamp, not the string that was just released after clamping.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Hey Irvin, I think you misunderstood my question. I’m referring to the single string left holding all the tension on one side of the clamp, not the string that was just released after clamping.
I understood you. The tension on the 5th string between the clamp (holding the 5th and 6th main) and the frame.

EDIT: With the clamp holding the 5th and 6th mains the tension on the 5th main between the clamp and the frame is the total of tension on the 5th and 6th mains on the opposite side of the clamp. On the 6th main that has no tension, because it was released, the 5th main is holding all the tension on the other side of the clamp which is about 80#.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Assume you clamp the 2 center mains with a flying clamp and pull 40# of tension on one end. the one string you tension up to the point of the clamp will have 40# of tension (assuming no loss.) The two strings on the other side of the clamp looped around the frame have 1/2 the applied tension. Same thing. If the two strings had 40# each the single string has 2 times that amount.
 
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Rafedovic

Rookie
So would you have 80# on the single string, 40# on each of the two strings on the other side of the clamp? This is all assuming no tension loss, just so I can understand the concept without getting bogged down in irrelevant details like I am doing right now by explaining why I’m assuming no tension loss, which I know is impossible.
Well, the concept is simple but I’m not sure if I’m missing something.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
So would you have 80# on the single string, 40# on each of the two strings on the other side of the clamp? This is all assuming no tension loss, just so I can understand the concept without getting bogged down in irrelevant details like I am doing right now by explaining why I’m assuming no tension loss, which I know is impossible.
Well, the concept is simple but I’m not sure if I’m missing something.
Rather than buying more flying clamps why not get 2 Starting Clamps? You’ll resolve the issue of excess tension on a single string and several other issues you don’t even know you have yet. Comes in handy for all types of problems.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
Oh well, I’ve already bought the clamps. I’ll have to re-read your technique again when I have time to visualize it, I’m at work at the moment.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
Rather than buying more flying clamps why not get 2 Starting Clamps? You’ll resolve the issue of excess tension on a single string and several other issues you don’t even know you have yet. Comes in handy for all types of problems.
How do I avoid excess tension on one string by using two starting clamps?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The starting clamp holds the 40# of tension which is the same between all string you never tie the tension of 2 strings together as you do with the flying clamp. It’s like you had the tensioner on the last stringtensioned.
 
The audience would like illustrations, please.:) I may be thick, but I am not getting how there can be more tension than 40#. But satisfying me is no one's job. Carry on!!
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Do you mean place the starting clamp on the outside of the frame before releasing tension?
Yes, then you move to the other side of the racket and tension you next main, remove the starting clamp, And move the flying clamps from the other side.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The audience would like illustrations, please.:) I may be thick, but I am not getting how there can be more tension than 40#. But satisfying me is no one's job. Carry on!!
Imagine you have 2 strings tensioned to 40#, that puts 80# of pressure on the frame where those 2 strings loop. If those 2 string are clamped together and supported by 1 string on the other end there is 80# on that 1 string.
 

bfroxen

Rookie
@Irvin, I like your idea about using two starting clamps to keep more even tension on the flying clamps. In my experience, the excess tension on the "holding" string pulls it around the grommets a bit and adds tension to the prior string, which makes it very difficult to get even tension on both center mains.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
Yes, then you move to the other side of the racket and tension you next main, remove the starting clamp, And move the flying clamps from the other side.
OK, I get you, that will allow me to use just a single flying clamp at any one time. Then I can use the small clamp for the tighter spaced strings in the center and then change to the bigger clamp for the outer strings when they are spread too far apart for the small clamp. It’s a little more clamp work but that would solve that problem.
I think one string would still be over-tensioned, although for less time, each time the flying clamp is placed on and the starting clamped is removed from the next string on that same side. You have to remove the starting clamp before you can pull tension don’t you, otherwise the string will go around the outside of the starting clamp before going through the grommet and the clamp will be pulled against the frame, won’t it?
The question is then, how much difference does the length of time make to the effect of over-tensioning that small section of string? And does it make enough of a difference to warrant a more convoluted clamping process? Maybe it’s an OCD thing, as mentioned before? I don’t think I can avoid it but I like problem solving.
 
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Rafedovic

Rookie
@Irvin, I like your idea about using two starting clamps to keep more even tension on the flying clamps. In my experience, the excess tension on the "holding" string pulls it around the grommets a bit and adds tension to the prior string, which makes it very difficult to get even tension on both center mains.
Interesting. I have this problem too. Have you found fixed clamps solve this problem? I’ve never used them before.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@Rafedovic if you only use a single flying clamp on each side stringing mains with a DW when you move the clamp the DW arm will fall. If you use 2 flying clamps the bar does not fall. You only use the starting clamp starting mains and switching the clamps. Stringing crosses us when the DW arm really falls when you move the clamp is you only use a single flying clamp.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
@Rafedovic if you only use a single flying clamp on each side stringing mains with a DW when you move the clamp the DW arm will fall. If you use 2 flying clamps the bar does not fall. You only use the starting clamp starting mains and switching the clamps. Stringing crosses us when the DW arm really falls when you move the clamp is you only use a single flying clamp.
So do you clamp, say, mains 4+5 with one clamp, 5+6 with the other, at the same time? I’m not sure I follow. I thought you said to use two starting clamps with a single flying clamp, shared between sides, the whole way through?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Use 2 flying clamps on a side when tensioning the strings. Use the starting clamps to hold tension on a side while moving flying clamps to the opposite side. You're going to need a minimum of 3 clamps either way you look at it.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
No worries. So two starting clamps, one for each side of the frame. Two flying clamps, used on the side being tensioned. Where are they placed and on what strings? Sorry, it’s hard to imagine what you’re doing but I think I’m almost there.
 

bfroxen

Rookie
Interesting. I have this problem too. Have you found fixed clamps solve this problem? I’ve never used them before.
I tried all kinds of ways to start the mains with flying clamps, and the two center mains always ended up with different tensions (easy to hear by plucking, since they're the same length). Fixed clamps solved that.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
I tried all kinds of ways to start the mains with flying clamps, and the two center mains always ended up with different tensions (easy to hear by plucking, since they're the same length). Fixed clamps solved that.
Ive been plucking the strings too but hadn’t realised one of the centre mains is always out until you mentioned it. Keen to hear @Irvin’s method.
 
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esgee48

G.O.A.T.
KM has something they call a starting pin. You can make your own with a scrap piece of poly with a bulky knot at one end. Or you can buy one from KM. The device allows you to pull one main at a time when starting.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
I have a starting pin, just bought a starting clamp to have a go with but my racquets all have pretty fresh strings. I need to play some more.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I have a starting pin, just bought a starting clamp to have a go with but my racquets all have pretty fresh strings. I need to play some more.
If you live in the Atlanta area you can forget that. Even the asphalt courts are getting mushy from the rain. LOL
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
I’m in Australia so no probs there, just been busy.

@Irvin, the method you were talking about before, do you use two flying clamps on the same strings, or is it kind of like a string way triple clamp you are going for, where the tensioned string is held by the two strings next to it to spread the load?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I’m in Australia so no probs there, just been busy.

@Irvin, the method you were talking about before, do you use two flying clamps on the same strings, or is it kind of like a string way triple clamp you are going for, where the tensioned string is held by the two strings next to it to spread the load?
That was just a thought I had not a method I’m currently using but I’m going to try it. More often than not I use an eCP machine with fixed clamps and I don’t want to experiment with client rackets because the eCP strings up the racket so it results in a much stiffer stringbed. The next time I use my X-2 I’ll make a video and post it here showing the method.
 

tennisbike

Professional
.. the two center mains always ended up with different tensions (easy to hear by plucking, since they're the same length). Fixed clamps solved that.
I would say fixed clamps minimized the different tension, not always. The solution is "walking" the tension from #2 and out. I think even Parnell does that.

When I suspect a lower tension in the center main after I tensioned all or most of the mains, by plucking or by SM, I would begin to push down on #2 main, to raise #1 main. Then push down on #3 to tighten #2 and so on. I typically want a equal or slightly high tension center then gradually decrease tension toward the side. Adjust repeated until the tension distribution is to your liking. The disadvantage though, is that you might not be able to reproduce exactly the same string bed the next time. The good thing is you most likely will like the adjusted string bed.

I also did this when I cut out the cross strings to restring just the cross. This is a perfect opportunity to tune the main strings. After playing the center main strings tend to get lower tension. So by walking the tension, you will get tighter center main, and with properly selected cross string tension, the string bed would be restored or improved. When I had Ashaway Kevlar mains, I did this multiple times.
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
I would say fixed clamps minimized the different tension, not always. The solution is "walking" the tension from #2 and out. I think even Parnell does that.

When I suspect a lower tension in the center main after I tensioned all or most of the mains, by plucking or by SM, I would begin to push down on #2 main, to raise #1 main. Then push down on #3 to tighten #2 and so on. I typically want a equal or slightly high tension center then gradually decrease tension toward the side. Adjust repeated until the tension distribution is to your liking. The disadvantage though, is that you might not be able to reproduce exactly the same string bed the next time. The good thing is you most likely will like the adjusted string bed.

I also did this when I cut out the cross strings to restring just the cross. This is a perfect opportunity to tune the main strings. After playing the center main strings tend to get lower tension. So by walking the tension, you will get tighter center main, and with properly selected cross string tension, the string bed would be restored or improved. When I had Ashaway Kevlar mains, I did this multiple times.
I like the idea of bumping the centre tension up by walking the tension out when restringing the crosses. I’ve tried a couple of times pressing the strings to even out tension but it’s tough to get it even if there’s just one real dodgy string on one side. I’m also worried pressing too hard will over tension the strings. That’s one thing about the Jaycee method that puzzles me, he really stresses to avoid over tensioning but then walks the tension out. It feels to me that I have to apply a lot of force to shift tension around from string to string.
 

tennisbike

Professional
I like the idea of bumping the centre tension up by walking the tension out when restringing the crosses. I’ve tried a couple of times pressing the strings to even out tension but it’s tough to get it even if there’s just one real dodgy string on one side. I’m also worried pressing too hard will over tension the strings. That’s one thing about the Jaycee method that puzzles me, he really stresses to avoid over tensioning but then walks the tension out. It feels to me that I have to apply a lot of force to shift tension around from string to string.
I respect whoever developed the Jaycee/JET method. Using SM I observed that, by dropping 3 or 4 lbs at #4, 5 and 6 mains, the tension across the string bed is more even. And I like how these string beds play. I do not have to measure each string length and run the spreadsheet or buy the sheet from xxxi then adjust tension about 20 times while stringing (only 6 times). Only slightly more work is needed and I feel that I achieve a very good playing string bed. Although the article made it sounds like a very elaborate process that needs A LOT of training. I feel pretty comfortable going through the process after a few rackets. Of course I can only claim that my method is inspired by Jaycee but not the real Jaycee.

At at the end, you just have to do what you feel is best. For me, unless I am rushed to finish a stick, I routinely would do Tension advisor, using the softest dynamic tension to find the main to cross tension, make quick adjustment and record on my note. Then string it. All my own playing stick gets the treatment. When I remember to ping the center mains and not liking it, then I would walk it. When I cut out the cross string to restring, I would walk it. With Kevlar, I use SM to check. With regular string I ping.

One little trick I do is that when I clamp #2 and 3 mains, I do not put the clamp right against the frame. I use Gamma progrssion DW with fixed clamp. Knowing that the small distance between the clamp and frame is not tensioned after clamped, I try to keep that distance more constant. Thus far I align the clamp to the 6-12 o'clock mount. So by leaving about equal slacked sting at #2 and #3, I effectively lower their tension and made them more equal to #1.

All strings at high tension would stretch out. That is the nature of the string. Higher the tension the quicker the creep. Either you do not raise the tension or to minimize you do it quick. Push and let go, that is it. Molecules needs time to slide pass each other, so minimize the time.

It is fun to ponder but .. no need to worry. Try it and see. If it does not work, repeat a few times, and you will learn something. What you learn from your experience is priceless. Given that you have a sound method and some ways to take measurement. :) Have fun!
 

Jerry Seinfeld

Professional
Imagine you have 2 strings tensioned to 40#, that puts 80# of pressure on the frame where those 2 strings loop. If those 2 string are clamped together and supported by 1 string on the other end there is 80# on that 1 string.
That's ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. You have 40 pounds of pressure, not 80.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
That's ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. You have 40 pounds of pressure, not 80.
If I double pull the two center strings in a tennis racket at 80# do you believe I will have 40# on each string, or 1/2 the applied tension? How much tension do you think the tip of the racket is holding with 40# on each string? No matter what you think, it is 80# whether it is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous or not.
 
Imagine tying a rope from a picket fence to a 200 lb man, and having him lean forward, which would pull the fence. Tie a second rope around a second man to the next picket over and have him do the same. The fence will move even more. And whatever their pull is, based on where the rope is tied and their angle of inclination, it would take an identical 400 lb man on the opposite side of the fence to pull the fence to its original position.

Or a woman. It works the same with a woman. :)
 

Rafedovic

Rookie
When the tension from the tension head is released, you can actually see the tension transferring to the single string that is left opposing the two strings on the other side of the clamp.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
When the tension from the tension head is released, you can actually see the tension transferring to the single string that is left opposing the two strings on the other side of the clamp.
Only if you are using 1 clamp. And the greater the clamp contact is with the string the less twisting you will see. I have some old thinner clampp that are 1/2 as wide and come in contact with the string less than the Gamma Composite clamps. I see a lot less twisting with the Gamma clamps.
 
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