Texas Men's 4.0 18+ Sectionals - Aug. 14-16

moonshine

New User
I believe they were self-rate DQs. I doubt you will see the match results reversed although all 4 played in the finals. The real issue is that the DQs leave them with 7 eligible players which doesn't qualify them as a team to make the trip to Nationals.

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I'm not disputing this, but TennisLink doesn't show the DQ's or match reversal (yet?), and the check for self-rate DQ's normally happens same day at the event and not the next day. Do you know if these were self-rate DQ's or some other administrative DQ?

They did have a bunch of self-rates so it certainly could have been that, although I'm surprised it would have been that many. And administrative DQ's usually require whatever grievance to have been filed before the event.
For those keeping track at home.... 8 out of their 11 players were S rated with 4 of the 8 getting DQ'ed after their Sectionals win while 2 of their 11 players are 4.0Cs. what? :confused:
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I believe they were self-rate DQs. I doubt you will see the match results reversed although all 4 played in the finals. The real issue is that the DQs leave them with 7 eligible players which doesn't qualify them as a team to make the trip to Nationals.

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Yes, you are right. Texas only checks for DQ's at the end of the event and does not reverse results. So the eligibility kicks in then and yeah, with a smaller roster they don't have enough once the DQ's are out.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Yes, you are right. Texas only checks for DQ's at the end of the event and does not reverse results. So the eligibility kicks in then and yeah, with a smaller roster they don't have enough once the DQ's are out.
They show as 5.0 in the computer now. Funny thing is that that the player who I played against at line 2 dubs that got the DQ was not as strong as his partner who was safe.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
They show as 5.0 in the computer now. Funny thing is that that the player who I played against at line 2 dubs that got the DQ was not as strong as his partner who was safe.
Looks like these guys were former McMurray players (D3) personally I think it sucks they got DQ'd but I guess three strikes is three strikes. They also had a Hardin Simmons guy.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
For those keeping track at home.... 8 out of their 11 players were S rated with 4 of the 8 getting DQ'ed after their Sectionals win while 2 of their 11 players are 4.0Cs. what? :confused:
One of the 4.0 players was a state champion in high school who was undefeated at both 4.0 and 4.5 this year, including 3-0 at 4.5 sectionals, so he is definitely "4.0", not actually 4.0.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I'm not disputing this, but TennisLink doesn't show the DQ's or match reversal (yet?), and the check for self-rate DQ's normally happens same day at the event and not the next day. Do you know if these were self-rate DQ's or some other administrative DQ?

They did have a bunch of self-rates so it certainly could have been that, although I'm surprised it would have been that many. And administrative DQ's usually require whatever grievance to have been filed before the event.
Ok, took a deeper look. This team added two regular season matches just last weekend and added some players to get them qualified, seemingly because they had a small roster. When I incorporated those results, it is more reasonable that 4 were DQ'd.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
They show as 5.0 in the computer now. Funny thing is that that the player who I played against at line 2 dubs that got the DQ was not as strong as his partner who was safe.
My ratings agree! That was one one of the four that I go hmmm on.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Looks like these guys were former McMurray players (D3) personally I think it sucks they got DQ'd but I guess three strikes is three strikes. They also had a Hardin Simmons guy.
They were good, but not out of level in my opinion. Unfortunate they got DQed for them. Sucks having been in flight with them.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
One of the 4.0 players was a state champion in high school who was undefeated at both 4.0 and 4.5 this year, including 3-0 at 4.5 sectionals, so he is definitely "4.0", not actually 4.0.
He was a baller. Not a big guy. Solid game. Nothing super impressive, but just solid.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Ok, took a deeper look. This team added two regular season matches just last weekend and added some players to get them qualified, seemingly because they had a small roster. When I incorporated those results, it is more reasonable that 4 were DQ'd.
NoHo did as well. Todd Reed said they will likely add a rule for next year so that can't happen again.

That team wouldn't have advanced beyond group play without the last minute adds.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
That Abilene team's regular season is hilarious. Except for the 4.0 guy who plays 55+ that was one of the last minute adds for the last two matches, they lost ONE GAME in singles all season. It's really a shame what happened to them because I'd be interested in seeing how they would have done at nationals. They clearly didn't manage scores or do anything underhanded to keep from being DQ'd yet they are the team that feels the brunt of it.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
That Abilene team's regular season is hilarious. Except for the 4.0 guy who plays 55+ that was one of the last minute adds for the last two matches, they lost ONE GAME in singles all season. It's really a shame what happened to them because I'd be interested in seeing how they would have done at nationals. They clearly didn't manage scores or do anything underhanded to keep from being DQ'd yet they are the team that feels the brunt of it.
It is really tricky when you have a 2 team flight with >50% of the players self-rated. You are right, it doesn't appear they held back in the regular season, but they weren't DQ'd during the regular season either, it happened at Sectionals where some guys played 5 matches. But in a way the two added matches to get three more eligible may have contributed to the DQ's.
 

Kokomo Joe

New User
San Antonio was right there with Abilene till the end. If San Antonio pulls off that 3rd set tie-break in singles San Antonio wins outright. San Antonio was winning the last match on the court (doubles). And San Antonio didn’t have 1 of their starting players at sectionals so they will be deeper at nationals. BALLS DEEP! Neva a doubt borachos
 

Kokomo Joe

New User
Devin, what I think was weak was your SETX team and your personal skills on the court. You lost two matches in flight Play. When you start winning all your matches in flight play then you can talk about “weak”
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Devin, what I think was weak was your SETX team and your personal skills on the court. You lost two matches in flight Play. When you start winning all your matches in flight play then you can talk about “weak”
LOL. I don't claim to be the best. Compared to previous years, I thought the field was much weaker than usual. San Antonio and Abilene were pretty far ahead of the field. If Abilene didn't get the last minute adds, they probably couldn't have even made it out of group play. So you basically have one real team with depth compared to 3 or 4 like usual.

You can't deny that.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Devin, what I think was weak was your SETX team and your personal skills on the court. You lost two matches in flight Play. When you start winning all your matches in flight play then you can talk about “weak”
And we were definitely weak this year.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
No offense to the San Antonio or Abilene teams but I think Devin is right that generally the field was weaker this year, the Houston team is usually a lot of stronger but I think this was an off year for them since they won it last year ? The Austin team was not quite as deep as the team that usually goes but they are definitely a team on the rise and they could be back again next year, they had a guy playing singles who played D1 at Georgetown and guy at dubs who played for St. Ed's who were both legit 5.0 bump downs and they went 6-0 combined. If they are back next year that team will be tough again.
 

teckid

Rookie
No offense to the San Antonio or Abilene teams but I think Devin is right that generally the field was weaker this year, the Houston team is usually a lot of stronger but I think this was an off year for them since they won it last year ? The Austin team was not quite as deep as the team that usually goes but they are definitely a team on the rise and they could be back again next year, they had a guy playing singles who played D1 at Georgetown and guy at dubs who played for St. Ed's who were both legit 5.0 bump downs and they went 6-0 combined. If they are back next year that team will be tough again.
Ah the Southside Bangers from Austin, I’ve heard about those guys ;)
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
No offense to the San Antonio or Abilene teams but I think Devin is right that generally the field was weaker this year, the Houston team is usually a lot of stronger but I think this was an off year for them since they won it last year ? The Austin team was not quite as deep as the team that usually goes but they are definitely a team on the rise and they could be back again next year, they had a guy playing singles who played D1 at Georgetown and guy at dubs who played for St. Ed's who were both legit 5.0 bump downs and they went 6-0 combined. If they are back next year that team will be tough again.
Exactly
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
No offense to the San Antonio or Abilene teams but I think Devin is right that generally the field was weaker this year, the Houston team is usually a lot of stronger but I think this was an off year for them since they won it last year ? The Austin team was not quite as deep as the team that usually goes but they are definitely a team on the rise and they could be back again next year, they had a guy playing singles who played D1 at Georgetown and guy at dubs who played for St. Ed's who were both legit 5.0 bump downs and they went 6-0 combined. If they are back next year that team will be tough again.
I still don't get it..... Why would a guy that played D1 and another guy that was 5.0 play in Stupid Lowly 4.0 division ?? These guys are bunch of slightly better than total hacker tennis players with beer bellies and don't know anything about conditioning.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I still don't get it..... Why would a guy that played D1 and another guy that was 5.0 play in Stupid Lowly 4.0 division ?? These guys are bunch of slightly better than total hacker tennis players with beer bellies and don't know anything about conditioning.
This was 4.5 that they were referring to.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
I still don't get it..... Why would a guy that played D1 and another guy that was 5.0 play in Stupid Lowly 4.0 division ?? These guys are bunch of slightly better than total hacker tennis players with beer bellies and don't know anything about conditioning.
There are lots of D1 and D2 players playing 4.5, not just in Texas but all over the country. Guys get older, have families and work and they still want to play competitive tennis with their friends but there aren't many 5.0 teams or open teams around.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
You mean the Sectionals where there is a 4.0 team with 8 guys who were 4.5 last year or appealed down to get their 4.0 rating, and one on the roster played on a 4.5 team last year that went a combined 0-54 individually?
I like Ft Worth to win the flight in 5.0! Byron Talbot, now 53 years old but career high 229 ATP!
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
I think Dallas has it locked up at 5.0 although Talbot & Friend are insane doubles players. I had the fortune of getting my ass handed to me by them last fall.

Watch out for Fort Worth next year at 4.5 ;)
10 potential bump downs?
 

coyote

Semi-Pro
Usually in late July. What level? 4.0 always gives Dallas, Houston, Austin and San Antonio a wildcard.

4.5 is iffy who gets one. It rotates between Dallas, SA, Houston and Austin. There are usually 2 or 3.
 

coyote

Semi-Pro
They wait until after Dallas & Houston play their city playoffs. In the past a few captains from those cities would throw their finals matches for ratings purposes so they don’t confirm them until after city playoffs.

There is a chance you won’t get a WC. At 4.0, I’ve never seen the big 4 cities not get a WC.
 

jmc3367

Rookie
Don't overlook that he'd even managed to get a 3.5C from Fall league last year by (presumably) throwing his four 4.0 matches played then. Had they not caught him and DQ'd/promoted him to 5.0, he could have been playing 3.5 this year!
what 5.0 would get any enjoyment playing 3.5 tennis? that's ridiculous
 
They wait until after Dallas & Houston play their city playoffs. In the past a few captains from those cities would throw their finals matches for ratings purposes so they don’t confirm them until after city playoffs.

There is a chance you won’t get a WC. At 4.0, I’ve never seen the big 4 cities not get a WC.
Check out 2017. Only 3 wild cards given due to a draw of 16, rather than the usual 20. The ones chosen were Dallas, Houston, and Austin.
 
Does anyone know when they announce the wild cards for 4.0? Our latch match of the season was two months ago.
They will announce it early to mid-July, since they like to publish the preliminary draw three weeks before the tournament. I say preliminary because the wild cards will be listed on the draw, but not which cities got the wild cards. There will just be entries for "Wild". Coyote is right that they won't publish the final draw until after Dallas and Houston have played their playoffs. The reason is that in the past, certain captains thought their cities' wild card's draw was easier than the city champion's draw, so they deliberately lost in the finals to get placed in the easier draw. After USTA figured this out, they withheld the final draws until the champions were decided.
 
4.0.

Late July... damn.
I think you'll probably get one Matthew, since I expect a draw of 20 this year, for the following reason: There are 19 Community Tennis Associations (CTAs) in Texas, but this year it looks like only 14 have leagues, so for a draw of 16, that leaves only 2 wild cards, which will automatically be granted to Houston and Dallas. That's how it was explained to me a few years ago by the state league coordinator. In 2017, there were only 13 CTAs that had leagues, and they chose to go with a 16 draw, which only left room for 3 wild cards. So if they go with a 20 draw this year, then 6 cities will get wild cards, Houston, Dallas, and four others, and almost certainly one of those will be Austin. Again, the way it was explained to me was that each city gets their name put in the hat once for each four teams, which favors the larger cities with many teams, especially Austin, San Antonio, and Ft. Worth. Then, the last spot would go to a lucky small city (Corpus maybe?).

I prefer the smaller draw for several reasons: 1. There is already a tournament for the 2nd place teams. It's called Little State, and happens on the same weekend as sectionals 2. The smaller draw means we play fewer matches in the 100+ degree heat, leaving fewer people exposed to heat exhaustion and other issues. 3. The second place teams (especially those from smaller cities) have virtually no chance to win the tournament, since they couldn't even with their own city. How can they win the whole state? An exception to this is when teams deliberately lose in their playoffs to get placed in a draw that they perceive is easier. But by and large they are wasting their time and money coming to this tournament, when another alternative is available.

But waiting so late to offer wild cards presents another problem: That is, the teams have already made other plans, and the draw will have holes. That's what happened last year, when we had an 18 draw. One half had 10, and one had 8. So one half had to play 4 matches to get to the semis, and the other half only had to play 3. Not fair, but we lived with it. USTA offered wild cards to some of the smaller cities (including mine) but to no avail. It was just too late to make it happen. A 16 draw would prevent that situation.
 
Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated.

To the point in your middle paragraph, it's a fair point but I think there are other exceptions than deliberate tanking. My team had to play the final without three of our six starters (myself included) due to the late 4pm Sunday match time. Had the other team agreed to the optional 9am start time, we could have had all our starters, which is most likely why they didn't, haha.
 
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