The 1930s and 1940s plus the 1950s for the Women players.

Murray08 was not prime Murray.
Why should we take prime Sampras?
Even if prime Sampraas would have probably lost.
Not sure about the better fight.
I saw the fights he had vs Safin and Hewitt for example.
And they were not Federer or Djokovic

Fine, you can leave out USO 08 Murray as far as the results go. But his effort that day in the final wasn't good.

Hewitt's game was a perfect anti-dote to Sampras' later career game --- coming in on almost every serve (00-02). Won't be the same vs all-courter Sampras(93-99).

Safin of course was an absolute beast in that USO 00 final. He'd have beaten anyone except Fed, Sampras,Mac playing close to their best level, I think. (in the open era). Sampras didn't give up in that match. He was just plain steam-rolled by Safin playing at an unbelievable level and couldn't summon his best level.

2000 was the tail end of Sampras' prime also. (and you could argue 2000 wasn't even part of his prime, as well).
Remember Sampras did beat hewitt in USO 00 SF and safin in USO 01 SF

And yes, absolutely sure about the better fight. (its obvious as 2+2=4 ,given their careers).
 
Remember Sampras did beat hewitt in USO 00 SF and safin in USO 01 SF.

To be fair Hewitt was not yet in his prime in that match and Safin was pretty crap the year after :D

But yeah no way should Murray be compared to Agassi let alone Sampras.
 
What's recency bias?
I never watch highlights, they mean nothing. I sometimes watch old games, including Pete's ones, yes. Why?

being biased towards recent events (rating them higher) -- either consciously or subconsciously or a combination of both.
 
To be fair Hewitt was not yet in his prime in that match and Safin was pretty crap the year after :D

But yeah no way should Murray be compared to Agassi let alone Sampras.

true, but Sampras was below par in the Hewitt match in USO 01 final as well -- after the 1st set.
 
@pc1

Who's the best British player of all time - for relative level of play, and who's the greatest?

I tend not to consider further back than the 20's because the game was so different, I'd probably go with Perry for both but I'm interested in your thoughts. In fact I'd appreciate any great info about Perry and his records that people want to share :p



Thanks, this seems about right. How do you view the divide in the early 30's once Tilden turned pro?

I know the choice by many here is Fred Perry but to be honest I have seen videos of him and I'm not impressed. I hate his backhand and his serve was okay but as some have said, Perry probably would have loved Jack Kramer's SECOND serve as his first. He was clearly a great player but while he won a lot of majors in a short time I believe Vines would have stopped him a number of times if Vines played the majors. Statistically he was excellent but to me, relative to the times, the best British player is easily HL Doherty. HL of the famous Doherty brother apparently had a far superior backhand to Perry plus excellent movement (but probably not at the level of Perry who was one of the fastest ever) and he was a top volleyer.

Check this post out by Borgforever years ago.
HUGH LAWRENCE DOHERTY (1875-1919) – GOAT-contender, was born appropiately in Wimbledon three years after his famous older brother. Called “H. L.” or “Little Do” (as opposed to his much taller brother called “Big Do”) by the press – he seemed to be called “Laurie” by his closest friends.

Laurie Doherty’s achievements are more or less still unmatched even a hundred years after he retired.

Her can be credited with winning and holding every major tournament of his day, on every surface, on every continent and most of them for several years by far outshining his famous brother.

NOTE: In this study I've focused mainly on Lawrence's and Reginald's singles careers since their record in doubles is simply unique -- only two recorded losses during their prime 1896-1906 -- I lack the words to express the level of admiration I hold for that record!

If we look at the incomplete records that we have during his 11 year career 1896-1906:

Tournament wins: 61 (starting in 81 tournaments) winning 75.30% of all tourneys entered on our record
Finals/Challenge Round-finals: 11
Losses on record: 20 (real match-losses – including chivalrous w/o)

Compare this to his great brother who "only" won 28 tournaments (16 losses including w/o having started in 44 singles championships) winning 63.63% of all tourneys entered on our record.

Hugh Lawrence Doherty:

Olympics Gold 1900 (singles and doubles)

USO 1903 (First GS-major won without set-loss)

Davis Cup – 4 times in a row: 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906

Wimbledon – 5 times in a row: 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 - final 1898

Queens Indoor – 6 times in a row: 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906

The South of France Championships, Place Mozart, Nice – 7 times in a row: 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906

Golden Grand Slam 1903 – holder of every major championship – Davis Cup, Olympics, Wimbledon, USO, Queens Indoor, The South of France Championships plus many other championships and everyone of the majors he won in doubles with his brother this year since they were undefeated and this fact raises his win-loss record for 1903 to about app. 80 – 0!

H. L. was undefeated in singles and doubles in Davis Cup

Undefeated streak on all surfaces including every championship on every continent: 3 years and 3 months
(July 1901- October 1904)

Retires as undefeated and undefeated holder of every major championship on every available surface in 1906.

His win-loss record in singles for the year 1903 has been stated as app: 45-0 -- 80-0 including doubles!

He also won the first major tourney without set-loss - USO 1903 – 130-44 (174) for a 74.71 % game-winning percentage

19 major championships (arguably of Grand Slam-status of the day -- 24 major championship titles including Davis Cup and the Olympics Gold) although I would contend the Olympics field wasn't the deepest or strongest.

If you include all 8 Wimby titles in doubles (with R. F. of course), 2 USO-doubles titles and 4 Davis Cup doubles titles, 9 British Covered Court doubles championships at Queen's indoors and some other doubles titles H. L. ends up with an arguable and just unbelievable total of over 40 major titles (!!!) in 10 years during a hotly contested era on several continents.

These were the Grand Slam-major championships of the era. Wimbledon on fast grass, US Nationals/Newport/USO played on slightly slower grass, Queens was the unofficial world indoor championship played on superfast wood-tiles and the big South of France Championship at the Place Mozart, Nice was arguably the forerunner to today’s French Open, i. e. the greatest red clay championship in France of the era.

As you see above Laurie Doherty started to win every one of these majors and then kept on winning them reaching his summit in 1903 winning every one in spectacular fashion. He didn’t return to defend his USO-title in 1904 but few doubt that he would’ve failed had he done so had todays comfortable travel been available. During these days traveling was extremely ardous – going by steamer for weeks since the airplanes was just being invented by the Wright-brothers just that same year in 1903.

The others (Wimby, Nice, Queens) for the following years being the only player in history to retire with so many big titles (having won them all many times in succession) while still being the holder.

In 1903 he had the “Golden Grand Slam”-title with the Olympic Gold Medal in singles and doubles, Wimbledon, USO, Queens Indoor, SOF Nice, Davis Cup and at least an additional five tournaments having achieved 10 tournament wins. He also was undefeated this year (as he had been in for half of 1901, the whole of 1902 and even deep into the fall of 1904 – having a three year and three month stretch as undefeated).

What has been the most important factors in determining Laurie Doherty’s achievements in tennis has been the strength of his rivals and the strength of the fields as well as reading a lot of witness accounts and reading up on the records of players who kept playing from his era and still performed well against the greats in the 1920s.

I will go into a short career era overview/analysis before I go into the real meat and potatoes and add comments from witness, rivals and contemporaries.

Then follows the post including my new, updated records of both the brothers so you can study the results yourselves that I have a running commentary for.

I will also explain quite clearly in somewhat in-depth his main rivals – all his great contemporaries in composite quotes from their rivals so you get a dynamic image yourselves of how these players made their impression in matches. It will make the scores come alive.

This era is not to be underrated.

Harry Hopman, Sir Norman Brookes and A. Wallis Myers and the referee F. R. Burrow all rated Hugh Lawrence Doherty as a serious GOAT-contender and there’s enough evidence to suggest that had Laurie having a career today he could’ve matched the other greats – with todays smooth traveling, a lot more scientific in the discipline and ten times better technique and equipment.

The racquet-heads of the early 1900s was slightly bigger than in the 30s to early 1980s and the balls (many Ayres-balls) looked like the ones today but they were weighing about 40 grams average until todays 52 grams was cemented in the 1910s and 1920s.

The game of tennis was during this time a bit faster, more explosive than the game played from 1910 onwards. A little bit retro development mirroring slighty what happened in our age from early 1980 onwards…

Now as far as the divide in the early 1930s I would say that perhaps Vines could have been number one in 1931 but it could be Cochet or Tilden. Jack Crawford has a super argument to be the best overall in 1933 considering he won the first three majors and almost won the US Championship. However probably to me is that in 1934 with Vines, Tilden, Nusslein, Cochet in the Pros that 1934 may have been the time the Pros became superior to the amateurs.

Some posters (I forgot who) have argued that Tilden's majors shouldn't be given as much credence because they were amateur but to me that makes no sense since Tilden was playing against all the best players and defeating them. This was not the case for example in the 1950s when the Pros reigned supreme.


Tilden as he always seemed to be was perhaps the reason the pros became stronger. He got Vines to sign as a pro which perhaps influence others like Perry and Budge to sign.

As far as the comparison between records are concerned, it's clear that HL Doherty had the superior record to Perry. What advantages as far as stroke production could Perry have? Well obviously his continental forehand which many have called the greatest ever. Perry was also super fast with great stamina. His forehand, taken on the rise could put any opponent in trouble. Perry also apparently had a nice backhand return which he said he fiddled back against big serve. Still can't stand the look of his backhand.
 
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Fine, you can leave out USO 08 Murray as far as the results go. But his effort that day in the final wasn't good.

Hewitt's game was a perfect anti-dote to Sampras' later career game --- coming in on almost every serve (00-02). Won't be the same vs all-courter Sampras(93-99).

Safin of course was an absolute beast in that USO 00 final. He'd have beaten anyone except Fed, Sampras,Mac playing close to their best level, I think. (in the open era). Sampras didn't give up in that match. He was just plain steam-rolled by Safin playing at an unbelievable level and couldn't summon his best level.

2000 was the tail end of Sampras' prime also. (and you could argue 2000 wasn't even part of his prime, as well).
Remember Sampras did beat hewitt in USO 00 SF and safin in USO 01 SF

And yes, absolutely sure about the better fight. (its obvious as 2+2=4 ,given their careers).
Are you aware that Sampras himself considers him a better player at the end of his career? When he was older?
 
true, but Sampras was below par in the Hewitt match in USO 01 final as well -- after the 1st set.
It was tough for the older players in those days because the semi was played on Saturday and the final on Sunday. Very little time to recover.
 
Are you aware that Sampras himself considers him a better player at the end of his career? When he was older?

Very much aware of it.
He also said the USO 2002 was the best match he's ever played.

Both not even remotely true.
 
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Are you aware that Sampras himself considers him a better player at the end of his career? When he was older?
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean Sampras felt the him himself was better when he was older or do you mean Safin? If Sampras felt that about himself, well that is just wrong if you look at the stats. Perhaps he meant his own stroke production was better when he was older.
 
It was tough for the older players in those days because the semi was played on Saturday and the final on Sunday. Very little time to recover.

I don't think it was just the Super-Saturday in 2001 though. Sampras had to come through a draw of Rafter, Agassi, Safin ( in that order, the previous US Open champions , in chronological order as well, heh- 98, 99 and 00).

But Sampras benefitted from Super Saturday in 02 because it was the other SFist Agassi who had a clearly tougher and more draining semi -- vs Hewitt.
 
being biased towards recent events (rating them higher) -- either consciously or subconsciously or a combination of both.
Nope. Or at least if thinking that the game goes always up era after era is recency bias, so yes.
But it's conscious and something I strongly believe.

But it's not the case in this point.
The case is Murray as a probable tough opponent for Sampras. I don't even said he is better, because I don't think so, but a tough opponent, hell yeah
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean Sampras felt the him himself was better when he was older or do you mean Safin? If Sampras felt that about himself, well that is just wrong if you look at the stats. Perhaps he meant his own stroke production was better when he was older.
But why is it wrong?
Because you think that?
I would pick Sampras word on his level instead of anyone else in the world.
Important thing: the opponent matters. Sometimes he is better than you.

“The best tennis I would play was when I was older,” Sampras recalled a few years later. “I wasn’t as consistent week in and week out, but that final I played against Andre at the 2002 U.S. Open was the highest level I’ve ever played.”
 
Nope. Or at least if thinking that the game goes always up era after era is recency bias, so yes.
But it's conscious and something I strongly believe.

no, wasn't talking about that.

But it's not the case in this point.
The case is Murray as a probable tough opponent for Sampras. I don't even said he is better, because I don't think so, but a tough opponent, hell yeah

tough opponent in Master 1000 or lesser events, absolutely.
In the slams or YEC knockout match, expect Sampras to be ruthless and Murray to lose the vast majority just as he has vs Federer/Djokovic/Nadal. (with Murray not being able to sustain a high level in many of those important matches)
 
But why is it wrong?
Because you think that?
I would pick Sampras word on his level instead of anyone else in the world.
Important thing: the opponent matters. Sometimes he is better than you.

“The best tennis I would play was when I was older,” Sampras recalled a few years later. “I wasn’t as consistent week in and week out, but that final I played against Andre at the 2002 U.S. Open was the highest level I’ve ever played.”

That's very simplistic.

But eye test and stats clearly prove otherwise.
 
Ok, so Sampras is not aware of his game level. It's kinda hilarious.
But if you say that, it should be true :D

Its not just me saying it

Its the eye test based on plenty of people saying the very same thing.
Plus the stats show that clearly as well.

and yes, I found Sampras' statement hilarious as well.
 
Its not just me saying it

Its the eye test based on plenty of people saying the very same thing.
Plus the stats show that clearly as well.

and yes, I found Sampras' statement hilarious as well.
It's the same thing Agassi, Federer, Serena have told. Like they are/were better players at the end of the career.
They are all hilarious, what can I say?
I usually believe the players when they speak of themselves than the bloggers.
But probably I'm wrong
 
It's the same thing Agassi, Federer, Serena have told. Like they are/were better players at the end of the career.
They are all hilarious, what can I say?
I usually believe the players when they speak of themselves than the bloggers.
But probably I'm wrong

you don't believe in your eyes and stats confirming that they were better players at their primes ?
 
But why is it wrong?
Because you think that?
I would pick Sampras word on his level instead of anyone else in the world.
Important thing: the opponent matters. Sometimes he is better than you.

“The best tennis I would play was when I was older,” Sampras recalled a few years later. “I wasn’t as consistent week in and week out, but that final I played against Andre at the 2002 U.S. Open was the highest level I’ve ever played.”
If you read it you missed the part where I wrote "well that is just wrong if you look at the stats" which means the stats indicate he was better when he was young. I don't rule out for a match or even for a period of time he could be better in the early 2000s. However can you really compare overall his play of the early 2000s to 1994?
 
you don't believe in your eyes and stats confirming that they were better players at their primes ?
I tend to trust Federer when he says he's a better player now than 10 years ago. But it's also obvious, I don't need Federer word to think that
 
forget the eye test for a second ; for someone so set on records/stats, how can you ignore them ?
 
If you read it you missed the part where I wrote "well that is just wrong if you look at the stats" which means the stats indicate he was better when he was young. I don't rule out for a match or even for a period of time he could be better in the early 2000s. However can you really compare overall his play of the early 2000s to 1994?
It depends on what we are talking about.
If we talk about a full year, so when you are young you are more consistent.
But for a single match or a single tournament (so the peak), I pick the older version.
Of course they have to be top players in both versions.
If at 1995 you are number one and in 2005 you are number 100, so it doesn't make any sense.
But if you are still good, older is better. Like 10 years hitting balls every day, evolution of the game, matches vs opponents.
All these stuff push up at higher level
 
If you read it you missed the part where I wrote "well that is just wrong if you look at the stats" which means the stats indicate he was better when he was young. I don't rule out for a match or even for a period of time he could be better in the early 2000s. However can you really compare overall his play of the early 2000s to 1994?
Agassi, Federer and Serena said the same exact thing.
Maybe hitting balls all day long made people crazy. It's a possibility
 
I would pick 2017 all the time.
In a single tournament.
No doubt at all.
But even Federer would pick 2017 version. This thing should make you think

nope, he might say it for now.
But ask him a few years later, he might change his opinion.

As far as tournaments go.

AO 07 >> AO 17
IW 17 >> IW 07
Miami 17 >>> Miami 07

clay season 07 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay season 17 ( did not play)

wim 07 > wim 17
canada 07 >> canada 17
cincy 07 >>> cincy 17 (did not play)

USO 07 >>>>> USO 17
shanghai 17 > madrid 17

in a Bo5 especially, you'd have to be crazy to pick fed 17 over fed 07.
 
nope, he might say it for now.
But ask him a few years later, he might change his opinion.

As far as tournaments go.

AO 07 >> AO 17
IW 17 >> IW 07
Miami 17 >>> Miami 07

clay season 07 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay season 17 ( did not play)

wim 07 > wim 17
canada 07 >> canada 17
cincy 07 >>> cincy 17 (did not play)

USO 07 >>>>> USO 17
shanghai 17 > madrid 17

in a Bo5 especially, you'd have to be crazy to pick fed 17 over fed 07.
So Federer is crazy.
It's possible, I dont know him personally.
But I bet he will reply the same in 5 years from now
 
nope, he might say it for now.
But ask him a few years later, he might change his opinion.

As far as tournaments go.

AO 07 >> AO 17
IW 17 >> IW 07
Miami 17 >>> Miami 07

clay season 07 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay season 17 ( did not play)

wim 07 > wim 17
canada 07 >> canada 17
cincy 07 >>> cincy 17 (did not play)

USO 07 >>>>> USO 17
shanghai 17 > madrid 17

in a Bo5 especially, you'd have to be crazy to pick fed 17 over fed 07.
And Agassi said that way after the end of his career. So he didn't change his mind
 
So Federer is crazy.
It's possible, I dont know him personally.
But I bet he will reply the same in 5 years from now

nope, he's just making a crazy assessment , if he really believes so.

A big difference b/w making a crazy assessment and being crazy.
For someone so set on correcting records/stats of others, you should know that's a big difference ;)
 
nope, he's just making a crazy assessment , if he really believes so.

A big difference b/w making a crazy assessment and being crazy.
For someone so set on correcting records/stats of others, you should know that's a big difference ;)
But I think the same.
He also said the now he loses more often because he has tougher opponents. Again correct.
Why should he lie on this? He, Sampras, Agassi... Why?
They could say they were better when they were winning all the time (you know, the pride of a champion?).
But no, they are aware that they improved their game and they finished/are finishing better than ever.
 
But I think the same.
He also said the now he loses more often because he has tougher opponents. Again correct.
Why should he lie on this? He, Sampras, Agassi... Why?
They could say they were better when they were winning all the time (you know, the pride of a champion?).
But no, they are aware that they improved their game and they finished/are finishing better than ever.

you want answers ? I can only speculate.

But you won't like it or accept it (seeing as you think volleying isn't necessary/useful these days, which is absolutey crazy btw ;))

a) they don't realise how much of their movement/explosiveness they've lost from their prime/peak years or how much difference that is making to their own games.
they do know they've lost some of it, but maybe they don't realise the full extent.
same goes for their anticipation.

b) because of a) above, they might tend to over-estimate the level of their opponents.

c) as far as federer is concerned , he doesn't want to admit to his opponents about aspects of his game declining, doesn't want to make himself more vulnerable by admitting them.


..................

You do also know that Federer said that he couldn't go all out or hit as confidently with his FH with the new racquet in 14/15,right ? Because he didn't feel he could control its power.

Its only with a lot of practice/training in 2nd half of 2016, that he's got used to it and got his FH back upto 2012 level.


..................

Now tell me why their stats contradict what they are saying and why they show they were better at their peaks
 
you want answers ? I can only speculate.

But you won't like it or accept it (seeing as you think volleying isn't necessary/useful these days, which is absolutey crazy btw ;))

a) they don't realise how much of their movement/explosiveness they've lost from their prime/peak years or how much difference that is making to their own games.
they do know they've lost some of it, but maybe they don't realise the full extent.
same goes for their anticipation.

b) because of a) above, they might tend to over-estimate the level of their opponents.

c) as far as federer is concerned , he doesn't want to admit to his opponents about aspects of his game declining, doesn't want to make himself more vulnerable by admitting them.


..................

You do also know that Federer said that he couldn't go all out or hit as confidently with his FH with the new racquet in 14/15,right ? Because he didn't feel he could control its power.

Its only with a lot of practice/training in 2nd half of 2016, that he's got used to it and got his FH back upto 2012 level.


..................

Now tell me why their stats contradict what they are saying and why they show they were better at their peaks
This is Federer in 2015.
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”

He said a similar thing this year too, I will paste it now.

Which stats?
His serve in these 4 years (not 2016) is at top. Maybe only one year (2005, not sure about it) served with better % and saving more break points.
The backhand is a lot more solid.
He saves more BPs.
To which stats do you refer to?

He loses more matches, but it depends on the opponents.
With Nole2015/16 in 2007, I'm afraid it would have ended the same way.
Or without Nole in 2015/16.
It would have meant 3 slams.

Opponents matter
 
This is Federer in 2015.
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”

He said a similar thing this year too, I will paste it now.

I've seen that. in 2014/15, "my forehand is as still as good as it's ever been" ?

that's LOLworthy stuff.

Which stats?
His serve in these 4 years (not 2016) is at top. Maybe only one year (2005, not sure about it) served with better % and saving more break points.
Te backhand is a lot more solid.
He saves more BPs.
To which stats di you refer to?

1. Match stats.

Plenty of them have been charted here by krosero, Moose and myself (among others here)

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-statistics-1959-present.552865

quite a few of the others available in the official websites.

2. Return stats.
2004-06 were considerably better than any year after that.


WHe loses more matches, but it depends on the opponents.
With Nole2015/16 in 2007, I'm afraid it would have ended tua same way.
Or without Nole in 2015/16.
It would have meant 3 slams.

Opponents matter

2007 fed beats 2015 Nole at Wimbledon .

2007 fed beats 2015 Nole at USO as well.

2007 AO fed vs 2016 AO Nole would be a gigantic clash.


-----

opponents do matter, but its used wrongly many times.

Federer in 08 lost to Fish, Roddick, Blake, Karlovic etc. all of them.

guys who didn't beat him one time combined from 2004-07.
 
It depends on what we are talking about.
If we talk about a full year, so when you are young you are more consistent.
But for a single match or a single tournament (so the peak), I pick the older version.
Of course they have to be top players in both versions.
If at 1995 you are number one and in 2005 you are number 100, so it doesn't make any sense.
But if you are still good, older is better. Like 10 years hitting balls every day, evolution of the game, matches vs opponents.
All these stuff push up at higher level

That’s debatable. When a player is older, age and injuries tend to take their toll in reducing the player’s physical talent. A player may lose a step or several steps which will affect his strokes. The player’s reflexes may be slower affecting his strokes, accuracy and net play.

I tend to favor the younger player in most examples at their peak over the older player.
 
That’s debatable. When a player is older, age and injuries tend to take their toll in reducing the player’s physical talent. A player may lose a step or several steps which will affect his strokes. The player’s reflexes may be slower affecting his strokes, accuracy and net play.

I tend to favor the younger player in most examples at their peak over the older player.

It shouldn't really need to be explained that Federer on the whole was better in his peak years. Federer has compensated for the decline of his physical gifts remarkably well but he can't cover all of them.
 
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I've seen that. in 2014/15, "my forehand is as still as good as it's ever been" ?

that's LOLworthy stuff.



1. Match stats.

Plenty of them have been charted here by krosero, Moose and myself (among others here)

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-statistics-1959-present.552865

quite a few of the others available in the official websites.

2. Return stats.
2004-06 were considerably better than any year after that.




2007 fed beats 2015 Nole at Wimbledon .

2007 fed beats 2015 Nole at USO as well.

2007 AO fed vs 2016 AO Nole would be a gigantic clash.


-----

opponents do matter, but its used wrongly many times.

Federer in 08 lost to Fish, Roddick, Blake, Karlovic etc. all of them.

guys who didn't beat him one time combined from 2004-07.
On 2007 Fed beating Nole at Wim, I would not bet a penny on it.
At U.S. open there is no need of taking particular Federer to do that, almost every good version could have done it.
At Aus 2016 same as per Wim15.

I saw all the stats posts, but they don't take the quality of the opponents in consideration.
Honestly how can you compare 2005-2006 with 2011-2012?

Just to be clear.
I'm a Fed supporter since I saw him live at Milan winning his first tourney.
 
It shouldn't really need to be explained that Federer on the whole was better in his peak years. Federer has compensated for the decline of his physical gifts remarkably well but he can't cover all of them.
This is just an idea that most of the fan do to "protect" their hero.
Thinking that the "real" version was the winning one.
 
That’s debatable. When a player is older, age and injuries tend to take their toll in reducing the player’s physical talent. A player may lose a step or several steps which will affect his strokes. The player’s reflexes may be slower affecting his strokes, accuracy and net play.

I tend to favor the younger player in most examples at their peak over the older player.
So why Fed, Pete and Agassi said that?
I can find more examples of you want.
If I recall well, Rosewall said something similar in the Open Era (so way after his "peak"...).
How do you explain that?
 
On 2007 Fed beating Nole at Wim, I would not bet a penny on it.

I would.
Djokovic 15 Wimby final was on a similar level as Nadal 07 in the wimby final and Nadal's game troubles a peak federer quite a bit more than Djokovic's.

At U.S. open there is no need of taking particular Federer to do that, almost every good version could have done it.

Mentioned that since we were discussing 07 fed vs 15 djokovic.

At Aus 2016 same as per Wim15.

I wouldn't bet either way. Both were absolutely brilliant at the respective AOs - 07, 16. (SF/F)

I saw all the stats posts, but they don't take the quality of the opponents in consideration.
Honestly how can you compare 2005-2006 with 2011-2012?

Just to be clear.
I'm a Fed supporter since I saw him live at Milan winning his first tourney.

of course they do take the quality of opponents play into consideration.

The opponents stats --- serve%, winners, UEs etc. also come into the picture.
 
This is just an idea that most of the fan do to "protect" their hero.
Thinking that the "real" version was the winning one.

I have no need to protect Federer, he's won 2 majors this year.

If you can't see why players would talk up their own games then I can't explain it to you.
 
I have no need to protect Federer, he's won 2 majors this year.

If you can't see why players would talk up their own games then I can't explain it to you.
No.
Honestly I can't understand why a player should say something he doesn't think.
After retirement even more.

Why should Sampras have to say he was better in 2002?
For which reason, apart that he really was?

Explain me please
 
@NoMercy :

federer's return stats were also clearly better in 04-06 than other years.
Perhaps you missed that ? ;)
And don't you think is because overall people serve better now?
What about Nadal for example?
Better now or before?
Because if EVERYBODY return worst, maybe people are serving better.
I showed you yesterday that every year in the slams there are more aces and less breaks
 
No.
Honestly I can't understand why a player should say something he doesn't think.
After retirement even more.

Why should Sampras have to say he was better in 2002?
For which reason, apart that he really was?

Explain me please

Look at Sampras's results in 2002. Guy didn't win a tournament for 2 years and you think he was better than ever just because he said so?

Let's use common sense and our own faculties. There's a mental side to the sport, you understand this correct?
 
Look at Sampras's results in 2002. Guy didn't win a tournament for 2 years and you think he was better than ever just because he said so?

Let's use common sense and our own faculties. There's a mental side to the sport, you understand this correct?
It doesn't matter what he did in the year.
He referred to his level of play.
He said also he was not consistent (actually he lost passion in the game).
But he said that when he was ready, he was at his best level.

Agassi said the same regarding him in 2005, his better version.

Are they all crazy?
Anyway, I stay with the players.
I tend to think they know tennis better than the bloggers
 
And don't you think is because overall people serve better now?
What about Nadal for example?
Better now or before?
Because if EVERYBODY return worst, maybe people are serving better.
I showed you yesterday that every year in the slams there are more aces and less breaks

The rise in serving overall is considerably less compared to the decline in federer's return stats.
 
It doesn't matter what he did in the year.
He referred to his level of play.
He said also he was not consistent (actually he lost passion in the game).
But he said that when he was ready, he was at his best level.

Agassi said the same regarding him in 2005, his better version.

Are they all crazy?
Anyway, I stay with the players.
I tend to think they know tennis better than the bloggers

I tend to think as outside observers we have a clearer perspective.

Your position makes little sense to be frank. If Pete's level of play was higher then surely he would have had a better record? Results should follow from level of play. If he could rarely reach that level of play then by what measure was he better as an older guy?

But hey maybe you're right, maybe I should trust them. Also btw I have some magic beans I'd like to sell to you.
 
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