The advantage of correct technique.

[zaph]

A year ago I was getting a bit disillusioned with tennis. I was beaten by a guy who didn't hit one shot correct, the perfect example of a pusher. Just weird shortened push shots you wouldn't see in any coaching manual.

I questioned what was the point of learning proper topspin gorund shots, if this guy could beat me easily.

To fix the problem I went back to basics, tried to fix all the weaknesses in my game. Too upright on shots, poor footwork, one paced ball basher, incorrect service technique, that led to loads of double faults.

I would like to say I started winning after doing this, but actually I got worse. Concentrating on hitting the shots correctly, the serve with the proper following through, better footwork and getting the ball over the net consistantly meant I lost a ton of power. I was getting beaten by ball bashers, that I use to be able to stay with.

A year of of persistance, and I am back to being able to hit the ball with the old power, when I want to. However now I can handle slow balls, change the pace, and have a much higher shot tolerance.

I played the same pusher, and thrashed him. I couldn't understand why I found him so hard to play. It was easy.

Still can't beat the best defensive players in the club, but they aren't really pushers. They are kind of spin and placement masters. Still it is nice to make progress.

Still need a better slice backhand, more power on the double handed backhand, and my volley is cringe worthy, but even that is slowly getting better.

 

[sureshs]

As you grow older, you will realize that correct technique is important for minimizing energy, preventing injuries, and getting enjoyment from the game. As far as winning or losing goes, you will always lose to somebody, it doesn't really matter.

 

[zaph]

As you grow older, you will realize that correct technique is important for minimizing energy, preventing injuries, and getting enjoyment from the game. As far as winning or losing goes, you will always lose to somebody, it doesn't really matter.

I can kind of understand that, if I am playing properly and lose it doesn't bother me as much. At the end of the day my opponent was better.

When it gets to me is when I have lost and played badly, been lazy with the footwork, trying to go for stupid shots.

 

[LeeD]

Also, sometimes your good technique just plays into your opponent's favorite shots, since he has been countering good technique by using bad technique, slow loopy, non spinny balls THAT ARE WELL PLACED.
And of course, the best technique in the world doesn't to much without smart placement of the shots.
I find, when I play my best, it raises the games of the other 3 guys, and in singles, it raises the level of play in my opponent's.

 

[jdubbs]

Zaph, I did the same after a decade outta the sport. Lost to horrible players at first, threw in 20 double faults a match, missed shot after shot. Went back to the basics, got a bunch of lessons, got my serve under control.

The best was beating a loudmouth at my club that I had lost to badly 10 months prior. After beating him 6-1, 6-1, he broke his Babolat Pure Drive into 10 pieces bashing it on the court in frustration.

I always wanted to play higher than the level I was at. 4.5 is good for me now (i'm about a .600 winning record at this level in club ladder matches and social settings) but I want to be able to hang with 5.0's.

You simply have to break down your game and build it back up to progress from 3.5 to 4.5 and beyond.

 

[PhrygianDominant]

In music the good players know there are different mindsets.

Practice
In Practice mode mistakes are not allowed. All mistakes are corrected and repeated correctly until playing without mistakes becomes the new normal. No exceptions.

Rehearsal
Rehearsal, sometimes called Practicing Performance(not be confused with Performance Practice, which is something else entirely) is where you do a runthrough and take note of all sections that need more practice.

Performance
Or "playing"...this is where you want to forget yourself. Forget your strokes. Try to zone. Try to "play", in the lightest, most intuitive sense of the word. Trust that the habits you have developed in "practice" will back you up when you play. Why else are you doing this if you never play?

 

[boramiNYC]

Good examples of how one can improve in a technical game like in tennis. If you're young kid who still has good overall coordination, improve as much as you can from feel and zeal. But if you're an adult with imperfect coordination, improving technique is like an open heart surgery. Gotta know how to open up, fix the problem, close the opening, and let it heal. You have to know the details to be able to do this whole process successfully. People complaining about technical discussions here haven't gotten this yet.

 

[user92626]

Good examples of how one can improve in a technical game like in tennis. If you're young kid who still has good overall coordination, improve as much as you can from feel and zeal. But if you're an adult with imperfect coordination, improving technique is like an open heart surgery. Gotta know how to open up, fix the problem, close the opening, and let it heal. You have to know the details to be able to do this whole process successfully. People complaining about technical discussions here haven't gotten this yet.

Too complicated an analogy.
The problem for adults to improve is simply they have too many distractions in life and their body is no longer flexible enough. The cost outweighs the return. That's it.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^plus that the open windows for developing new coordination skill are between 5-12 and 16-18, after that it's a whole lot harder

 

[Topspin Shot]

^^^plus that the open windows for developing new coordination skill are between 5-12 and 16-18, after that it's a whole lot harder

What happens between 12 and 16?

 

[boramiNYC]

Too complicated an analogy.
The problem for adults to improve is simply they have too many distractions in life and their body is no longer flexible enough. The cost outweighs the return. That's it.

Wish it was that simple. Those are big factors but more challenges exist. Even bigger ones. Flexibility of the mind is one of them. And the gain is not the only source of satisfaction in life. Learning itself can be enjoyment to some people.

 

[Ash_Smith]

What happens between 12 and 16?

Puberty (roughly)

 

[dknotty]

Good technique is repeatable and with practice will lead to more consistency and more power from more difficult positions.

 

[user92626]

Wish it was that simple. Those are big factors but more challenges exist. Even bigger ones. Flexibility of the mind is one of them. And the gain is not the only source of satisfaction in life. Learning itself can be enjoyment to some people.

It is that simple. Name your "more challenges".

"Flexibility of the mind" is baloney. Tennis knowledge isn't scarce or difficult like rocket technology. Adults aren't that stupid. They are very smart and prioritize things in their life. What would a 50 years old man do with his 5.0 skill?

 

[r2473]

What would a 50 years old man do with his 5.0 skill?

What?
....

 

[tennis_balla]

Puberty (roughly)

I was gonna write growth spurts but yea same thing.

 

[user92626]

What?
....

Oh man you always make me laugh. I'd bet my goats that you're very hilarious in person.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Puberty (roughly)

Many things get blamed on puberty but now lack of motor skill improvement??

 

[GoudX]

Many things get blamed on puberty but now lack of motor skill improvement??

It's hard to perfect the rhythm on a new swing and drill perfect balance on a new footwork pattern if your arm, legs and back are half an inch longer than they were a month ago when you tried to start learning the new technique.

People complain about the swingweight or length of their racquet changing 10%, but that is tiny compared to the physical changes due to puberty.

 

[Sir Shankalot]

It's hard to perfect the rhythm on a new swing and drill perfect balance on a new footwork pattern if your arm, legs and back are half an inch longer than they were a month ago when you tried to start learning the new technique.

People complain about the swingweight or length of their racquet changing 10%, but that is tiny compared to the physical changes due to puberty.

Exactly. My teenage son went from 5'1" to 5'7" and from 90lb to 130lb in the space of a year. He had been a pretty good sportsman previously and a very good footballer (Association FB, not American) but as he went through this growth spurt all his talent seemed to be erased. All of a sudden, the poor guy could not kick, throw or catch a ball to save his life. I wish more people understood this phenomenon.

 

[dknotty]

Exactly. My teenage son went from 5'1" to 5'7" and from 90lb to 130lb in the space of a year. He had been a pretty good sportsman previously and a very good footballer (Association FB, not American) but as he went through this growth spurt all his talent seemed to be erased. All of a sudden, the poor guy could not kick, throw or catch a ball to save his life. I wish more people understood this phenomenon.

No wonder I gave up tennis at age 16...

I was never happy with my consistency!

 

[Sir Shankalot]

No wonder I gave up tennis at age 16...

I was never happy with my consistency!

Yeah, it is a real problem for some youngsters. Me, I grew from being a average sized 10 year old to my present height (5'11") by age 13. And as I went through this growth process I basically lost all coordination skills: I literally couldn't kick, hit or catch a ball for love nor money. So I got into track athletics which I was pretty good at, and went though my late teenage years just assuming that I was cr@p at any and all sports involving hitting or catching things. It only dawned on me that maybe I wasn't so bad when, at around age 35, I started fooling around with my own children, chucking balls around the garden, impromptu football matches etc, that this catching and kicking and throwing thing isn't so hard after all. So at the grand old age of 45 I decided to take up tennis and lo and behold, I'm really not so bad!

All those wasted years...

 

[torpantennis]

People always ask how to beat pushers. It's simple, use correct technique. I've also learned that, the hard way! Thought I was good earlier, turned out I was all arming, no proper footwork etc.

 

[Fintft]

People always ask how to beat pushers. It's simple, use correct technique. I've also learned that, the hard way! Thought I was good earlier, turned out I was all arming, no proper footwork etc.

My other problem (besides what you've just mention) is to be able to identify when (or to what extend) to go for more winners/better placement- basically to be able to tell if the opponent is going to push the ball consistently (and in that case I can afford to be patient) or do I need to strike first(b/c he is able in turn, especially with the FH, like my last night's opponent)?

A variation of this being, do I try to exploit his weakness (aka his weak BH), or do I just go for my shots, with better technique, i.e. a cc FH (this approach worked actually better overall, but it was a bit late to change plans)?

 

[Ash_Smith]

Many things get blamed on puberty but now lack of motor skill improvement??

Yes, absolutely. It has an incredible effect on motor skill development, the volume of hormones in the system cause all kinds of neuromuscular changes, some rapidly and the changes in limb length cause all kinds off coordination issues.

 

[TCF]

The interesting thing reading these posts about kids growing fast and losing coordination, etc. is that it is in no way universal. I would say more than half the talented players we work with are able to maintain performance and coordination right through their growth spurts and puberty. The rest are a mess during those times and look nothing like the players they were before.

 

[Chas Tennis]

My son grew very fast (as much as 1/2" in a month for a few months). He got a hamstring tear. The Dr said that sometimes the bones grow faster than the muscles and tendons can lengthen, and that causes extra stress. It is no wonder that tennis strokes are disrupted under those circumstances.

 

[tennisdad65]

My son grew very fast (as much as 1/2" in a month for a few months). He got a hamstring tear. The Dr said that sometimes the bones grow faster than the muscles and tendons can lengthen, and that causes extra stress. It is no wonder that tennis strokes are disrupted under those circumstances.

I saw the same issue with my son. He had no issues with tennis at age 7-9. Once his growth spurt started, at age 10-11 hitting at the same pace he did 2 years ago suddenly became difficult without getting hurt. Same with swimming (shoulders) and running (knees + hamstrings etc..).

Tennis is much harder on the shoulders, wrist, elbow than badminton , squash, racquet ball. So, I cut down drastically on his tennis in favor of badminton.

 

[Dimcorner]

My son grew very fast (as much as 1/2" in a month for a few months). He got a hamstring tear. The Dr said that sometimes the bones grow faster than the muscles and tendons can lengthen, and that causes extra stress. It is no wonder that tennis strokes are disrupted under those circumstances.

My daughter grew 4 inches in 4 months. She is a whopping 24" tall now (if she should stand that is...)

 

[sureshs]

My son grew very fast (as much as 1/2" in a month for a few months). He got a hamstring tear. The Dr said that sometimes the bones grow faster than the muscles and tendons can lengthen, and that causes extra stress. It is no wonder that tennis strokes are disrupted under those circumstances.

Tell me about it. My son is 6'3" now and grew so fast that he dislocated his left knee 3 times due to weakness in the muscles.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Tell me about it. My son is 6'3" now and grew so fast that he dislocated his left knee 3 times due to weakness in the muscles.

The knee or *patellar* dislocation? The first sounds quite serious.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pictures for patellarfemoral pain and dislocation.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pat...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

For adults as the years go by, imbalances in the quads and other issues can cause poor patellar tracking. This is a very common early location for knee arthritis.

People attribute many things to aging that are sometimes due to posture or muscle imbalances. Patellarfemoral pain is sometimes one of those things. Cartilage does not necessarily give pain as it deteriorates because nerves are not present. After the cartilage is gone and the pressure on the bone causes pain, it is too late for the most effective posture corrections.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0115/p194.html

15 years ago I had patellarfemoral pain that I attributed to aging. Now I attribute it to tight/short rectus femorus muscles (the one quad that connects above the hip joint). It is much less when I keep up the stretching.
https://www.mrtherapy.com/articles/article3.html

This stretch could be stressful for your back so take care.

 

[LeeD]

Growth spurts can be weird.
I graduated from high school at 5'5 1/2". Took the spring semester and summer off, so my freshman year of college, 5'10 3/4" and totally uncoordinated. Lucky for me, I was only surfing, and didn't do other sports.

 

[ProgressoR]

was the pusher in the OP injured in the second match? it's possible.

 

[sureshs]

The knee or *patellar* dislocation? The first sounds quite serious.

Patellar.

He also has supinated feet (genetic) and so it was a bad combination. He used to play all sports till the 7th grade, but from the 8th grade he had to stop everything (no running), do modified PE, and wear neoprene braces when outside the home. He has physio once a week to strengthen the muscles. They say it will all stabilize when after he reaches 20 years of age (another 2 more years).

With his height and built, he could have been a great athlete in any sport. But then we can't have everything in life.

 

[yellowoctopus]

All these talks about growth spurts and a disruption in a young person's coordinations and skills seem concerning. I've always thought that the human brain is extremely adaptable, especially to the changes in one's body.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Patellar.

He also has supinated feet (genetic) and so it was a bad combination. He used to play all sports till the 7th grade, but from the 8th grade he had to stop everything (no running), do modified PE, and wear neoprene braces when outside the home. He has physio once a week to strengthen the muscles. They say it will all stabilize when after he reaches 20 years of age (another 2 more years).

With his height and built, he could have been a great athlete in any sport. But then we can't have everything in life.

ouch. Perhaps it tweaked a career interest in orthopedics..... Best of luck.

 

[tennis_ocd]

All these talks about growth spurts and a disruption in a young person's coordinations and skills seem concerning. I've always thought that the human brain is extremely adaptable, especially to the changes in one's body.

That's what I'd thought; even more so I pictured added growth/strength as an advantage. This thread shows that there can be physical challanges from those who see it daily.

 

[10isfreak]

Adults aren't that stupid. They are very smart and prioritize things in their life. What would a 50 years old man do with his 5.0 skill?

You begin by stating that "adults aren't stupid" and by describing "smart" as "prioritizing things in there life." Given the following sentence, it is obvious that "prioritizing things in their life" has a very specific meaning. I'll thereon make an hypothesis about this meaning: tennis can't come at the top of the list, not in your view. Let us be honest here. If smartness in adulthood is bounded partly by a definite set of priorities, not complying with this standard of priority means that you are not smart. Maybe is there a state of intellectual neutrality, but, if there is none, then deviance from your standard is a case of stupidity.

While I do personally put a lot of things before tennis, I am neither sufficiently arrogant, nor by any means egocentric enough to consider my view of existence as the benchmark against which the legitimacy of other people's goals are to be judged.


Enough with the critic; I must provide a counter example. That is, I must answer your final question.

For many people with (what they might consider to be) meaningless jobs, leisure might be about more than enjoying their spare time. Maybe is it, in some way, a rare occasion for them to be themselves?

 

[torpantennis]

Too complicated an analogy.
The problem for adults to improve is simply they have too many distractions in life and their body is no longer flexible enough. The cost outweighs the return. That's it.

For many people with (what they might consider to be) meaningless jobs, leisure might be about more than enjoying their spare time. Maybe is it, in some way, a rare occasion for them to be themselves?

My experience of people (within friends) is that people with the LEAST meaningful jobs put the least effort on leisure. Level of education also seems to correlate here, with the higher educated people putting more effort on leisure. The people with super lazy leisure don't seem to understand enjoyment out of accomplishment, so why would they put any extra effort on anything that doesn't give you money, e.g. tennis. They also don't seem to understand that some people get great feelings and experiences out of extreme things such as mountain climbing.

IMO, it's no surprise that people who put the most effort on leisure also seem to be the ones with highest paid jobs, most positive attitude and are most succesful in general in life.

 

[Spin Doctor]

My experience of people (within friends) is that people with the LEAST meaningful jobs put the least effort on leisure. Level of education also seems to correlate here, with the higher educated people putting more effort on leisure. The people with super lazy leisure don't seem to understand enjoyment out of accomplishment, so why would they put any extra effort on anything that doesn't give you money, e.g. tennis. They also don't seem to understand that some people get great feelings and experiences out of extreme things such as mountain climbing.

IMO, it's no surprise that people who put the most effort on leisure also seem to be the ones with highest paid jobs, most positive attitude and are most succesful in general in life.

I would like to know how one determines whether a job is "meaningful".

I would agree with you that "high achievers" (and that does not necessarily correlate to working in "meaningful" jobs or having a higher education) tend to be competitive and disciplined and put a lot of effort into their hobbies and sports. But they also have the financial means to do so. Money can play a big part as well.

 

[downdaline]

One the major advantages of correct technique is lack of injury, I feel.

I have relatively "loose" joints, as my doctor once pointed out - I'll dislocate my shoulder easily if I overextend. After lots of working out, and lots of practice - this is something I can atest to.

Correct technique will mean that you're almost never subjecting your body to unnecessary stress, and thus you can play longer, and more consistently.

 

[psv255]

Correct technique will mean that you're almost never subjecting your body to unnecessary stress, and thus you can play longer, and more consistently.

Great point. Efficient technique not only prevents injury by reducing stress, but ideally also uses the leverage of optimal joint positions to direct a consistent approach to the ball, so the movement is not only minimizing stress but also improving consistency.

 

[Edburger]

All these talks about growth spurts and a disruption in a young person's coordinations and skills seem concerning. I've always thought that the human brain is extremely adaptable, especially to the changes in one's body.

I think, I would learn how to adapt and run away pretty fast if I was girl around Oscar Pistorius.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............................
I have relatively "loose" joints, as my doctor once pointed out - I'll dislocate my shoulder easily if I overextend. After lots of working out, and lots of practice - this is something I can atest to.
...................................

Have you seen the Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serving, conditioning the rotator cuff to make the shoulder joint more stable, and the correct shoulder position for the serve to minimize the risk of impingement?

As you probably know the rotator cuff holds the ball of the humerus in the shallow shoulder joint socket. The video has details and some conditioning exercises I believe.

 

[downdaline]

Have you seen the Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serving, conditioning the rotator cuff to make the shoulder joint more stable, and the correct shoulder position for the serve to minimize the risk of impingement?

As you probably know the rotator cuff holds the ball of the humerus in the shallow shoulder joint socket. The video has details and some conditioning exercises I believe.

No I haven't. Thanks I'll look it up. Always hungry for more info.

And yes, my physiotherapist briefed me about the rotator cuff. Worse still is that once you have a rotator cuff injury, even after injury, it becomes easier to injure. Now, I incorporate shoulder conditioning exercises in my workouts to help strengthen my shoulder, not just via shoulder presses, but through a range of motion.

 

[Chas Tennis]

No I haven't. Thanks I'll look it up. Always hungry for more info.

And yes, my physiotherapist briefed me about the rotator cuff. Worse still is that once you have a rotator cuff injury, even after injury, it becomes easier to injure. Now, I incorporate shoulder conditioning exercises in my workouts to help strengthen my shoulder, not just via shoulder presses, but through a range of motion.

Here's the Ellenbecker shoulder video, see minute 8 for the shoulder orientation to use on the serve to minimize impingement. Notice that the pros are using this shoulder orientation.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7243583&postcount=6

 

[CoachingMastery]

If it hasn't been said yet, let me make some points that should enlighten those like our OP:

1. It takes much longer to gain comfort, familiarity, and mastery of more advanced stroke techniques than players who simply "push" or use what ever they feel will work. The reason is simple: those who use 'what ever they feel will work' will be more comfortable, familiar and consistent.

2. Over time players will ALWAYS gain more control, more comfort, and eventual mastery of proper or more effective stroke patterns IF practiced and progressed properly. (Especially without reverting back to more familiar but less effective methods.)

3. In almost all cases, those who diligently work on developing proper stroke techniques, learn effective strategies, and practice within patterns that promote these qualities will defeat players who used to defeat them.

4. Lower level players, (3.0) who are at these levels for life, seldom have developed the patterns associated with more advanced play.

5. Yes, it was once said that 3.0 players "have all the trophies." These trophies all say 3.0 on them. Player who work on developing more advanced technique and tactics will initially lose to these lifer 3.0 players then usually pass them up in major steps.

6. Most importantly, (for those who want to see how far they can take their tennis), if you want to reach your full true potential, you will seldom reach it using inferior methods and techniques.

Like a piano player, you can learn to use all your fingers (which is harder and takes longer), or just use your index fingers to play a song today. One method will allow you to play song early...the other will allow you to play MUSIC and play the instrument the way it can be played.

Which way will allow the musician to ENJOY the instrument for life?

 

[Clay Mize]

If it hasn't been said yet, let me make some points that should enlighten those like our OP:

1. It takes much longer to gain comfort, familiarity, and mastery of more advanced stroke techniques than players who simply "push" or use what ever they feel will work. The reason is simple: those who use 'what ever they feel will work' will be more comfortable, familiar and consistent.

2. Over time players will ALWAYS gain more control, more comfort, and eventual mastery of proper or more effective stroke patterns IF practiced and progressed properly. (Especially without reverting back to more familiar but less effective methods.)

3. In almost all cases, those who diligently work on developing proper stroke techniques, learn effective strategies, and practice within patterns that promote these qualities will defeat players who used to defeat them.

4. Lower level players, (3.0) who are at these levels for life, seldom have developed the patterns associated with more advanced play.

5. Yes, it was once said that 3.0 players "have all the trophies." These trophies all say 3.0 on them. Player who work on developing more advanced technique and tactics will initially lose to these lifer 3.0 players then usually pass them up in major steps.

6. Most importantly, (for those who want to see how far they can take their tennis), if you want to reach your full true potential, you will seldom reach it using inferior methods and techniques.

Like a piano player, you can learn to use all your fingers (which is harder and takes longer), or just use your index fingers to play a song today. One method will allow you to play song early...the other will allow you to play MUSIC and play the instrument the way it can be played.

Which way will allow the musician to ENJOY the instrument for life?

Hi Dave, I bought and have been reading your book. Do you have a website or youtube channel that you post on?

 

[5263]

A year ago I was getting a bit disillusioned with tennis. I was beaten by a guy who didn't hit one shot correct, the perfect example of a pusher. Just weird shortened push shots you wouldn't see in any coaching manual.

I questioned what was the point of learning proper topspin gorund shots, if this guy could beat me easily.

I see the purpose of technique as a method of swinging the racket that provides control of the shot.

Anyone can hit hard and technique is hardly required at all, but if you want a certain spin and speed on the shot, where you can control it to a certain part of the court.....then good technique is a must to execute this consistently. Correct technique would be matching a type of technique to the intended result. Ex. you need a Topspin technique for topspin and a slice technique for a slice.

I also think it is a mistake to label one way as better for all players, like many try to do with the straight arm Fh. I believe the double bend is better for most players, but don't deny the SA can be very good as well. That said, I believe there are certain important keys. I find that to be the strength of MTM instruction, which only focuses on a very few fundamental items and leaves the rest to style and preference.