tlm
G.O.A.T.
Your right some people need some damn perspective because they show that they have sheer ignorance and you meet the qualifications.
The American Men Are Not Natural Athletes
- Thread starter Tcbtennis
- Start date
Your right some people need some damn perspective because they show that they have sheer ignorance and you meet the qualifications.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ I've got to agree with SLD76 on this. Your perspective is distorted.
Your hyperbole diminishes your credibility here. Roddick is an incredible athlete and a world class tennis player. Only 1 player has remained in the top 10 in the past decade as long (or longer) than A-Rod -- that would be Federer. One does not stay in the top10 in tennis in the men's game for most of 9 years if they are not exceptional/natural athletes.
While Roddick might not be a Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky or Roger Federer, he is nonetheless a gifted athlete. Very few are in a class with the best of the best.
Your hyperbole diminishes your credibility here. Roddick is an incredible athlete and a world class tennis player. Only 1 player has remained in the top 10 in the past decade as long (or longer) than A-Rod -- that would be Federer. One does not stay in the top10 in tennis in the men's game for most of 9 years if they are not exceptional/natural athletes.
While Roddick might not be a Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky or Roger Federer, he is nonetheless a gifted athlete. Very few are in a class with the best of the best.
He beat the track and field athlete, Ivo Van Damme who ran a 14.9. Granted, he's an 800m runner but you would still think that he should have been able to run faster than a tennis player.
People forget that without blocks and spikes you cannot achieve anywhere near the 10 second mark without being a 100m specialist already.
If you would like to do a little experiment, you can try putting these 'super high school athletes' on the soft ground that used to be used, with normal sneakers instead of running spikes, with a standing start and see how many approach 11 seconds.
Tennis isn't the only sport that technology has improved.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Are you sure that roddick is no Michael Jordan? But you are forgetting fish and isner now these are some real super athletes.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
nobody is saying roddick, isner or fish are the most athletic tennis players.
but labeling someone who has won a slam and been in the top 10 for a decade with a 4.5 bh is just laughable and ridiculous.
frankly, there is too much of that sort of nonsense around here...people are so used to watching these guys on tv without a reference point that perspective is lost.
the average 4.5 would kill to have roddick's bh, hell, they'd probably even take his volleys.
and again, dont confuse athleticism with talent and skill.
there is a saying in baseball...some guys are throwers( meaning they are athletes and can throw the ball hard) and some guys are pitchers ( meaning they have control, location, speed, etc).
the best pitchers are athletes with the talent to control the ball and make it do what they want.
the problem with american tennis is right now, we are lacking in talent. and probably not maximizing the talent we have with the current training.
batz
G.O.A.T.
Apologies if this has already been covered but Andy and Jamie were raised by their single Father.
No doubt. Look what happens when a properly rated 4.5 NTRP player and his BH plays a properly rated 5.0 player and his BH. Under normal circumstances a 5.0 should handily beat a 4.5. That .5 level difference is pronounced. Now take your 4.5 level BH and see how it looks vs a top 10 pro. The idea that a 4.5 NTRP player would be able to hit more than one or two bh's in a rally vs a top 10 pro without losing the point is ludicrous. We've all seen Roddick in rallies in which he hits 6 or 7 bh's maybe more at times. Roddick a 4.5 BH? Absurd...
vernonbc
Legend
Actually, they were raised by both their mother and their father. They happened to live with their father for 3 or 4 years but their mother was still very much involved with their nurturing and rearing. Just because parents are divorced, it doesn't mean that one or the other of the parents have relinquished their responsibilities.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
We have the best athletes in the world but they play other sports.
Very good analogy. But I also think the emphasis on futbol and clay court tennis in other parts of the world make it more likely for them to produce tennis players with superior movement and footwork. If 6'6" Sam Querrey had grown up in Argentina he might be Juan Martin Del Potro. Obviously, an oversimplification, but I think those factors play a role.
NetNinja68
Rookie
I would agree with some of this and certainly there is some points regarding american tennis players than can not be denied. I was a very competetive althlete for many years but never in tennis. I took up tennis in my late 30's as an alternative to golf and fell in love with it as it was far more athletically challenging and that's drives me! As many others have stated, the problem is not an inferior athletic crop from which to choose from here in the US but a complete lack of promotion & media hype that football, baseball and basketball regularly enjoy. Look at Mexico and their unbelieveable success in boxing...Are Mexican people born with a "boxing gene"? No, but there is an incredible emphasis on it from the time many children are barely potty trained producing results far beyond what anyone could expect from a country that produces many sub-par athletes in outher sport like tennis. Is boxing an altheletic sport...Hell Yes! It's all the media! What and who they promote is what influences our young aspiring althetes (white, black and other)to emulate. We love to reference our African American athletes (Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc) but those guys don't give a flying F about tennis and we're never introduced to it as children...If you remove all our foreign born Latin American and African American athletes from the American sporting landscape, how athletic of a nation are we really when as compared with the rest of the world??? I think this is the "real question".......
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Im not disputing that, but I was just trying to address the difference between athleticism and pure talent.
Look at a guy like Fish, once he maxed out his athleticism and got fit, it helped him elevate his game.
Im just saying right now...U.S. tennis is just not producing guys with superior talent, for various reasons.
Second, as someone else said, its not like none of the popular US sports require footwork. Basketball and football to name a few.
yes, you need good footwork for football, especially wide receiver and running back.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Thats a slippery slope. And a somewhat disengenuous notion.
First of all, there was a time when all the best boxers were jewish and irish. Know why? Because that was one of the few arenas they had open to them for economic advancement at the time.
Once those groups assimilated , black and hispanics took the field, for the same reasons as above.
Let's face it, while more anglo people live in poverty in the US( because they are the majority population), a higher percentage of the black and latino populations live in poverty( for reasons too myriad to get into here). And athletics/entertainment are seen as a way to escape this poverty.
So its not what you are hinting..that without blacks and hispanics, america is not that athletic?
The issue is, there may be a white stock broker right now who could have been a world class basketball or tennis player..but didnt develop those skills because he had other options to prosperity. Maybe he could have pursued it but didnt love it enough to work as hard as you need to to get to the elite level. Why go thru all that when you can just go to Wharton business school , get an MBA and become a day trader?
Besides, its not like the non-white players from europe and china come here and cant compete at all with the likes of Kobe and Lebron. The Lakers dont even win a title in 09 and '10 without Pau Gasol.
Jeremy Lin is the hottest player in the NBA right now and he is asian-american.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Yes, basketball footwork, and the quick explosive movements, and changing of directions, is very much translatable to tennis -- but, as you said, few kids will ever transfer from basketball to tennis, certainly not an elite player. At a lower level, some boys play both and are good at both, but if you're an elite basketball player, it's unlikely you'll give it up for tennis.
Boxing is another sport that really requires speed, agility, great footwork, endurance, but again, most promising boxers aren't going to jump over to tennis, if it's on their radar at all. I know an MMA trainer and I used to do boxing drills with him and the workout was amazing, the relevance to tennis was apparent (quick feet, always setting your feet, always anticipating, then having to strike), and the workout was a really, really fun change of pace.
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batz
G.O.A.T.
Actually, they were raised by both their mother and their father. They happened to live with their father for 3 or 4 years but their mother was still very much involved with their nurturing and rearing. Just because parents are divorced, it doesn't mean that one or the other of the parents have relinquished their responsibilities.
You're right - that wasn't what I intended to imply - only that at no time were Andy & Jamie raised by a single Mother - it wasn't meant as a pop at anyone.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
You are 12 years old. You are talented. You like tennis, you like basketball, but are great at both and could do well in either.
Look at how good you have to be to break even as a pro in tennis
Look at how good you dont have to be to get a league minimum contract in basketball.
Look at how much training costs for tennis and your family is not well off.
Look at how hard it is to get access to decent facilities, court time,
equipment, travel to tournaments...
Look at how hard it is to have any support structure for tennis training.
Look how easy it is to train with the JV kids at your local HS.
Look at how much training doesnt cost for basketball.
You want to do one professionally...
basketball it is.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Agreed, except maybe the portion that I put in bold. I'd still say its really hard to make it to the pros, and even harder not to flame out in the pros. Only the elite of the elite make it. Are you just talking about the NBA, or including NBA developmental league, foreign leagues, etc.? A roster spot on an NBA team and a minimum contract is pretty hard to come by.
Even the developmental/foreign league pays more than the ATP tour. Understand that only the top 30 make serious bank. You know, top 30 out of the .01% of the entire world.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
True, and coaching, travel costs, and other expenses don't have to come out of your own salary as in tennis. So it's not just the amout of money made, but the amount of money made vs. how much it costs to make it.
I know some former college players who play basketball in Europe, and while they're surely not living the high life of an NBA player, they're still able to get by, even save a little, if they manage their money. This may not be true for every foreign league player (I don't know what the minimum contract is), but many players are doing no worse than 20-somethings in a lot of other fields.
The players in the developmental league and the foreign leagues would probably be the equivalent of 300ish and down tennis players?? If the NBA has around 30 teams and has 10-12 players signed to contract, then you could say, generally that the Top 300-360 basketball players in any given year make an NBA minimum salary (with exceptions of course). Granted, those players are not the same every year and many only ever see one minimum contract, or even a half-season contract before flaming out.
To give you an idea of how expensive things can be, Fed said in an interview to Inside Tennis (latest issue) that he travels with his family + trainer, and leaves his physio and others behind, because if he brought more people, he would be under pressure to reach the quarters at least to break even. Admittedly, his expenses will be more than a no-frills single player, but it shows how even he thinks of what it takes to break even.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
geebus, how much of his winnings does he hand over to his coach/manageer??
then again, noone tells him to rent a presidential suite, lol
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I'd imagaine that at some touraments Fed gets some "perks" in the form of complimentary rooms (at least for a few nights) or a discounted rate. Then again, maybe not. Why would a hotel give up the money from someone who can actually afford the most expensive suite for a week or two?
And, again, on the other hand, I bet at there always has to be at least one hotel bidding to get the top players via comps or reduced rates so that they can use the fact that the player stayed there in their marketing.
No matter, even if there are "perks" travel with a lot of people, from the food, to the plane tickets, etc. has got to be incredibly expensive.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Famous people get more free stuff than anybody(meals, hotels, VIP tickets to concerts, etc) There are some celebrities who actually get offended when they aren't comped at restaurants.
I doubt Fed's money is worth more to the hotel than pictures of Fed enjoying/endorsing the hotel. Some rich, nutty tennis fan out there has probably requested to stay in the same room that Fed or Rafa has stayed in. I wonder how many have already requested to stay in Whitney Houston's room.
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skiracer55
Hall of Fame
I pretty much agree...
...that American tennis is in a bad patch right now. This thread says that American tennis is in a bad patch right now because Americans aren't natural athletes, or as good athletically as the rest of the world. That may be true, in fact I think it is true, but I'm not convinced that it's the only reason why Americans aren't winning Majors.
Being a champion is more than just being a great athlete. To take Sampras as an example, great athlete, great tennis player, but most of all, tough competitor and driven to be a champion. I'll never forget the year that he played Agassi in the Wimbledon finals. I think it was something like 4-4 in the first set, Agassi was playing well, and gaining confidence, and got Pete down 0-40 on his serve. Sampras didn't look the least bit concerned. He went back and hit two aces, a couple of service winners, and won the game in about 2 minutes. Game over, set over, match over. Whatever that is, that's what it takes to be a champion...
...that American tennis is in a bad patch right now. This thread says that American tennis is in a bad patch right now because Americans aren't natural athletes, or as good athletically as the rest of the world. That may be true, in fact I think it is true, but I'm not convinced that it's the only reason why Americans aren't winning Majors.
Being a champion is more than just being a great athlete. To take Sampras as an example, great athlete, great tennis player, but most of all, tough competitor and driven to be a champion. I'll never forget the year that he played Agassi in the Wimbledon finals. I think it was something like 4-4 in the first set, Agassi was playing well, and gaining confidence, and got Pete down 0-40 on his serve. Sampras didn't look the least bit concerned. He went back and hit two aces, a couple of service winners, and won the game in about 2 minutes. Game over, set over, match over. Whatever that is, that's what it takes to be a champion...
I would be scared of her ghost
li0scc0
Hall of Fame
He beat the track and field athlete, Ivo Van Damme who ran a 14.9. Granted, he's an 800m runner but you would still think that he should have been able to run faster than a tennis player.
People forget that without blocks and spikes you cannot achieve anywhere near the 10 second mark without being a 100m specialist already.
If you would like to do a little experiment, you can try putting these 'super high school athletes' on the soft ground that used to be used, with normal sneakers instead of running spikes, with a standing start and see how many approach 11 seconds.
Tennis isn't the only sport that technology has improved.
14.9 is painfully slow.
On any surface.
He clearly was not trying if he ran a 14.9. A good 800 runner can easily run a sub 1:45 800...which translates to about a 13 second 100...repeated 8 times! He clearly jogged the 100 to get to a 14.9.
As for surfaces, I ran on both modern and cinder tracks. My 100m times were not much different on cinders. That said, don't fall on a cinder track....ouch.
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tlm
G.O.A.T.
Whatever you say assphex
accidental
Hall of Fame
Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
I think it the mental game that makes you a top contender. The way you formulate winning points; how to close out a set; win tiebreakers, etc....
There are a lot of better at athletes I am sure in the game now; but those who win are those who know how to win against all types of opponents.
There are a lot of better at athletes I am sure in the game now; but those who win are those who know how to win against all types of opponents.
Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
48÷2(9+3) = 288
48÷2(12) = 2
Blake and Agassi are kind of oppose type players. Both are flashy; but Agassi is for the most part a consist hitter and will wait for an opening. Blake on the other hand; just hit out and goes for broke. He wins if he is on a streak; but against top 10 players like Djokovic; he has no change of winning in a 3 out 5 set match since Nowak just keeps the ball in play until Blake makes an error! Djokovic has a very nice return game and his serves are better then Blakes even on a hot streak.
roddick crashing out of wimbledon with ducked volleys to save matches versus every player he lost to.... yet, he was a "top 10 gifted player". lololol
or.it looks good because many players didn't do well on the clay or grass, which kept roddick from sliding into the journeyman 3rd round losses everywhere.
or.it looks good because many players didn't do well on the clay or grass, which kept roddick from sliding into the journeyman 3rd round losses everywhere.
wangs78
Legend
I frankly think that when Sampras was dominating in the 90s there was a whole generation of American boys who were taught that the most important element of your game is your serve. It's not surprising bc Sampras dominated with his serve. But he was actually quite a well rounded player as well. However, technology changed in the late 90s (strings), and surfaces were slowed down (mainly grass) and suddenly a strong ground game based on good movement became key. Hence someone like Roddick could never really break through because against the top players he'd always get trumped.
ZeroSkid
Banned
um no lol, I think what you mean is that money can only do so much, it's the individual that matters and not the talent either, I mean hard work
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Hold on...is that a semi or western grip that Blake is using? Damn....never knew that. Learn something new everyday.
Learn something new everyday. chatt_town
Hall of Fame
I think you are right but I still say you have some serious competitors in even team sports. Could you see say Cal Ripkein, Micheal Jordan or even Lebron James(I know he hasn't won anything but it's coming) on a tennis court with the drive they seem to have. I still think at the end of the day, America has only been interested in a certain type of player. Ones who's families have the money to send them to Bolliterri even if they aren't worth a damn. He talks about all the greats that he has taught, but I wish we could have list of every single player that has gone through there and see the percentages that actually turned out to be worth anything. I still say if the cost gets to be reasonable and you expose "everyone" to it, you'll see a difference pretty quickly.
Maybe you can take that number up with the organisers of the event themselves, because rather than running the fastest all everyone had to do was run faster than the slowest guy to reach the finals.
That even with such a poor incentive to risk injury Borg still ran that much faster says a lot about his athletic qualities.
Borg himself didn't expect to beat everyone and the finals had to be canceled due to scheduling conflicts.
Fact still remains though, he beat track and field athletes at their own game abeit not at their specialised distance (and destroyed everyone at table tennis).
