The art of mimicry at the service of tennis

[1HBH Rocks]

I found this video from a USTPA coach who explains very simply, but also very visually why most amateurs struggle with consistency. The guy gives some tips anyone could think of on here... that part isn't that much unusual, nor peculiarly more interesting than the dozen of other videos we can put up links to. What's so nice is the visual support he gives because he's stunningly good at faking mistakes to illustrate his points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=T2eAIoG9O8I

The lesson is that good footwork and good preparation allows you to hit the same strokes every time -- which is easy as opposed to hitting dramatically different strokes because you moved or have prepared too poorly. Anyway, the video is worth seeing just for the exaggerations he make of hitting late, too early, not moving, setting up poorly, taking too huge a back swing, stopping with the racket behind your back, etc. If you get to explain people why they should work on doing things right, I think this video contains good visual pieces that might support your points.

 

[sureshs]

Interesting. He advocates "racket back before bounce" which is good advice.

 

[LeeD]

Is it possible to bounce the ball ala DJ with the racket forwards?

 

[sureshs]

Is it possible to bounce the ball ala DJ with the racket forwards?

LOL that is a good joke.

Or is it?

 

[LeeD]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about serving.
Obviously, somehow groundstrokes got introduced.

 

[sureshs]

You are losing your mind LeeD.

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, well I remember telling my granddad the same thing when I was a teen.
Lucky for me, I don't have kids, so it won't happen to me. Wait wait, it just DID happen! :shock::shock:

 

[theblueark]

Interesting. He advocates "racket back before bounce" which is good advice.

Interesting also then that his demonstrations of correct strokes from 0:55 to 1:11 all show his racquet moving back from the unit turn as the ball is bouncing, not before. The only ball he moved the racquet back before the bounce was the one taken very early at 1:05.

 

[Kevo]

Taking the racket back should happen when the contact dictates, not the bounce. If you are timing the take back based on when the ball bounces, then your whole swing timing will change based on when the ball bounces.

I think that would actually be fine if your forward swing was not connected directly to the take back, but in the modern style that is never really the case.

 

[sureshs]

Interesting also then that his demonstrations of correct strokes from 0:55 to 1:11 all show his racquet moving back from the unit turn as the ball is bouncing, not before. The only ball he moved the racquet back before the bounce was the one taken very early at 1:05.

They are easy fed balls which are used to demonstrate things. It depends on the what you are facing. Tons of videos of pros doing both depending on the circumstances.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I found this video from a USTPA coach who explains very simply, but also very visually why most amateurs struggle with consistency. The guy gives some tips anyone could think of on here... that part isn't that much unusual, nor peculiarly more interesting than the dozen of other videos we can put up links to. What's so nice is the visual support he gives because he's stunningly good at faking mistakes to illustrate his points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=T2eAIoG9O8I

The lesson is that good footwork and good preparation allows you to hit the same strokes every time -- which is easy as opposed to hitting dramatically different strokes because you moved or have prepared too poorly. Anyway, the video is worth seeing just for the exaggerations he make of hitting late, too early, not moving, setting up poorly, taking too huge a back swing, stopping with the racket behind your back, etc. If you get to explain people why they should work on doing things right, I think this video contains good visual pieces that might support your points.

Thanks for posting. I don't care for this coach's personal technique at all, but, I totally agree with his premises. IMO, shot preparation and set up are the most important, and most overlooked, aspect of tennis technique. The quality of shot preparation is the biggest difference between high level and elite level tennis players.

 

[Chas Tennis]

"the bounce goes into the hit"

An instructor that I had would frequently say "the bounce goes into the hit". I could tell that it had a precise meaning to him. The exact meaning was not as precise to me. What do you think he meant by "the bounce goes into the hit"?

We can check the bounce-backswing timing on TV with DVR's. Not sure but I think that the unit turn starts after the bounce in most fast paced hits. ? That way any stretch put into muscles by the backswing can be used right away for more racket head speed.

 

[sportsfan1]

I came across the 10sworld entries recently and really liked them - short and useful information. It's hard to find time to watch really long videos e.g. 10 min (since you are going to be watching more than just 1 video) just to watch a couple of points repeated over. 3-4 minutes at most is good.

 

[theblueark]

Taking the racket back should happen when the contact dictates, not the bounce. If you are timing the take back based on when the ball bounces, then your whole swing timing will change based on when the ball bounces.

I agree with this. It just happens that most of the time, it happens to coincide exactly with the bounce. This is someone player dependent though most players seem to time it this way (although maybe not on purpose). Soldering is one of the exceptions who likes to do a big takeback before the bounce.

They are easy fed balls which are used to demonstrate things. It depends on the what you are facing. Tons of videos of pros doing both depending on the circumstances.

He had a lot of time before the ball bounced to take the racquet back, since it was easily fed balls. Why didn't he? Are you saying he should demonstrate poorer timing with easily fed balls? Later on in the video he even made a small mention on not preparing too early.

I posted this before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5-3ossC-rU
Watch how on every ball, even those taken on the rise, fed has his racquet pointing up during his unit turn before the ball bounces. And how his racquet starts to move back exactly when the ball bounces.

This is on every video of fed you can find. If there's any video on youtube you think is otherwise, feel free to post it and I'll slow it down at the bounce so we can see.

 

[sureshs]

I agree with this. It just happens that most of the time, it happens to coincide exactly with the bounce. This is someone player dependent though most players seem to time it this way (although maybe not on purpose). Soldering is one of the exceptions who likes to do a big takeback before the bounce.



He had a lot of time before the ball bounced to take the racquet back, since it was easily fed balls. Why didn't he? Are you saying he should demonstrate poorer timing with easily fed balls? Later on in the video he even made a small mention on not preparing too early.

I posted this before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5-3ossC-rU
Watch how on every ball, even those taken on the rise, fed has his racquet pointing up during his unit turn before the ball bounces. And how his racquet starts to move back exactly when the ball bounces.

This is on every video of fed you can find. If there's any video on youtube you think is otherwise, feel free to post it and I'll slow it down at the bounce so we can see.

With easy balls, you don't need to take it back early. I don't. Why would a pro teach you something he doesn't want you to do? And moreover I would hardly call his shots powerful.

I have provided umpteen videos in other threads with pros have racket pointing to the back fence before the ball bounce, or pointing to the side, even moving forward a few steps with their racket pointing back. It occurs when they are not in neutral mode, but looking to attack with confidence in their anticipation.

The Williams sisters are also known for having their racket back before bounce.

 

[theblueark]

I must be comprehending your opinion wrongly then.

When you say "take your racquet back before the bounce", do you mean,

A) Everyone should always take the racquet back before the bounce
B) Everyone should take the racquet back before the bounce, except on easy shots, where they should take the racquet back during the bounce. Or if they are Federer, who makes Blake's shots look easy.

Is it in your opinion that, during a typical set,

C) Most pros take the racquet back most of the time before the bounce
D) Most pros take the racquet back most of the time after the bounce

I am interested in viewing the videos you say you have posted before, but you have many posts to search through. Any helpful keywords I can use in the tt search?


Just to be clear, my opinion is that it seems to be player dependent and shot dependent. I'm no pro so I don't know which is best, but the vast majority of videos show pros taking it back after the bounce. That's an observation.

 

[Joehax]

I found this video from a USTPA coach who explains very simply, but also very visually why most amateurs struggle with consistency. The guy gives some tips anyone could think of on here... that part isn't that much unusual, nor peculiarly more interesting than the dozen of other videos we can put up links to. What's so nice is the visual support he gives because he's stunningly good at faking mistakes to illustrate his points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=T2eAIoG9O8I

The lesson is that good footwork and good preparation allows you to hit the same strokes every time -- which is easy as opposed to hitting dramatically different strokes because you moved or have prepared too poorly. Anyway, the video is worth seeing just for the exaggerations he make of hitting late, too early, not moving, setting up poorly, taking too huge a back swing, stopping with the racket behind your back, etc. If you get to explain people why they should work on doing things right, I think this video contains good visual pieces that might support your points.

I love 10sworld videos, I think they're the best tennis videos on YouTube.

Shame they don't get many hits, especially compared to some really crappy "instructors"..

 

[1HBH Rocks]

I must be comprehending your opinion wrongly then.

When you say "take your racquet back before the bounce", do you mean,

A) Everyone should always take the racquet back before the bounce
B) Everyone should take the racquet back before the bounce, except on easy shots, where they should take the racquet back during the bounce. Or if they are Federer, who makes Blake's shots look easy.

As soon as you know what shot you will hit, you do a unit turn. It naturally also gets your racket back a bit... however, that's only half the preparation as you will then need your arm to extended it beyond your hitting shoulder. The timing must obey to one rule and one rule only: once you use your arm to get the racket back (on a forehand, you split hands -- the one which held the racket's throat extends parallel to the baseline, the other gets the racket back), the racket must NEVER stop moving until the end of the follow-through.

Time it as necessary, but once you get the racket back, you must commit to swing and never stop. What the guy explains in the video is that if your racket is at its further point back once the ball bounces, you'll always have time to hit your shot. I don't know if it's true and don't care either... what's important is to not do like some amateurs who wait with the racket fully back.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Not sure but I think that the unit turn starts after the bounce in most fast paced hits.

No... the unit turn is the first thing you do. And pros do it even faster than you. What amateurs don't seem to get is that there is only one position in which you can wait for the ball without hindering the stroke, so let's be visual:

That's the only position in which you can wait for a ball while having begun to prepare. You can wait, eat a sandwich and even move... it won't hinder your stroke, even if you wait 10 minutes like that, it doesn't change anything.

But once you go further and let your racket go behind, you are forced to swing. And for my pure personal pleasure, inform as many people as you can that this isn't a waiting position:

That's when you're ready to swing... you get the racket back from above, drop it down and then go immediately forward without ever stopping. One, single continuous action.

See Federer's timing on that? He was somewhat like picture 1 before the ball even crossed the net and, then, once it's very near, his hands split and he hits. One continuous gesture... you won't ever see him wait with the racket way back like some amateur. In this picture, he just started taking it back, but the racket will drop and pick up speed quickly.

You time your swing with the contact, not the bounce.

 

[theblueark]

^^
Now that makes a heck of a lot more sense. So you're saying to time the take back such that it'll be one continuous motion all the way till contact and follow through.

Though I guess it doesn't roll off the tongue as easy as "take back before the bounce" or "take back during the bounce". I guess different coaches prefer to advocate one of the two beginners who are just learning to judge the speed and spins of the ball, let alone know how much time they'll have till their contact point.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Stretch shortening cycle timing

What do you think the role of the stretch shortening cycle is in the forehand motion? Which muscles are stretched? If trunk (say, obliques) then the timing of the unit turn should not be too early.

With the stretch shortening cycle the muscle-tendon is stretched and then must be used very soon after because stretch energy dissipates and is lost. For example only, after 0.1 second most of stretch energy is still available, after 0.5 seconds a lot is lost and after 1 second almost all is gone.

Then again increased racket head speed might be secondary to producing adequate racket head speed in a reproducible & precise way.......

 

[1HBH Rocks]

What do you think the role of the stretch shortening cycle is in the forehand motion? Which muscles are stretched? If trunk (say, obliques) then the timing of the unit turn should not be too early.

With the stretch shortening cycle the muscle-tendon is stretched and then must be used very soon after because stretch energy dissipates and is lost. For example only, after 0.1 second most of stretch energy is still available, after 0.5 seconds a lot is lost and after 1 second almost all is gone.

Then again increased racket head speed might be secondary to producing adequate racket head speed in a reproducible & precise way.......

When I speak of this cycle for the forehand, I mean that the forearm pronators are stretched (pronator quadratus and pronator teres) and then released. They're stretched when the hand is pulled forward by the arm and they're released nearby impact. If you don't do this (that is, setting your hand in the appropriate position), you fail to use your forearm and leave TONS of spin behind. It's not just a bit... for instance, compare Federer and Hewitt: Hewitt doesn't use his forearm properly (yes, I am criticizing a pro!) while Federer does. If you look at super-slow motion videos, one with at least 210fps, you'll see Federer hand being pulled into pronation a lot sooner and a lot quicker than Hewitt's and you'll notice Hewitt retaining the same hand position until a while after impact where he pulls a WW finish... in his case, it's aesthetic; in Federer's case, it's the consequence of a good swing, but with a naked eye or even with most slow-motion videos, you can't tell the difference.

If you swing properly and smoothly, it's one detail that can allow you to hit big without sacrificing consistency. On the tour, it's part of what splits 2 500+rpm and 75+mph forehands from the rest and in case you didn't realize, I'll tell you right away: players control their shots with spin; if you have a lot of it, you can hit big and still be "ball can" accurate.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

^^
Now that makes a heck of a lot more sense. So you're saying to time the take back such that it'll be one continuous motion all the way till contact and follow through.

Though I guess it doesn't roll off the tongue as easy as "take back before the bounce" or "take back during the bounce". I guess different coaches prefer to advocate one of the two beginners who are just learning to judge the speed and spins of the ball, let alone know how much time they'll have till their contact point.

If you teacher a beginner, teach him right or just don't do it. Once he can make contact with a tennis ball, the first thing he should be learning besides the grip is how to wait it. It's easy and everyone will do the same once they get into this position: they'll naturally take the racket back before bringing it forward, but if it's already up and they're already turned, they're forced to drop it down and behind... From there, they hit. If you don't do that, here's what will happen over 9 times out of 10:

The guy will wait, wait, wait, wait... then, the ball bounce, he quickly gets it back from bellow and pendulum swing it into the ball. Super inefficient mechanically speaking, but also very good way to be late and feel rushed even by slow balls. When you do it right, your racket is closer to a full take back than if you don't and you're already sideways... a good third of the work is done before you even know where exactly the ball will land -- it means you can be prepared for faster balls without issue.

 

[Chas Tennis]

When I speak of this cycle for the forehand, I mean that the forearm pronators are stretched (pronator quadratus and pronator teres) and then released. They're stretched when the hand is pulled forward by the arm and they're released nearby impact. If you don't do this (that is, setting your hand in the appropriate position), you fail to use your forearm and leave TONS of spin behind. It's not just a bit... for instance, compare Federer and Hewitt: Hewitt doesn't use his forearm properly (yes, I am criticizing a pro!) while Federer does. If you look at super-slow motion videos, one with at least 210fps, you'll see Federer hand being pulled into pronation a lot sooner and a lot quicker than Hewitt's and you'll notice Hewitt retaining the same hand position until a while after impact where he pulls a WW finish... in his case, it's aesthetic; in Federer's case, it's the consequence of a good swing, but with a naked eye or even with most slow-motion videos, you can't tell the difference.

I have read that internal shoulder rotation plays a part in the forehand. Federer straightens his elbow before impact and that could allow internal shoulder rotation to contribute to the wrist rotation in exactly the same way that pronation does. The bigger ISR muscles, the lat & pec, can much more forcefully rotate the wrist than the smaller pronator muscles. Of course some pros don't straighten the elbow as much as Federer so for them ISR is not clear. ?

Also, Macci emphasizes getting the elbow up - that implies that the lat might be stretched. It could also just be getting into a position to allow the lat to contract, with stretch or not. I wish Macci would add some muscle identifications to his well explained forehand instructions.

ISR appears in videos as rotation of the elbow axially. I can see it at around the time of impact and more obviously after impact. Still, the angular velocity of the rotation can still be high early well before rotation has progressed very much.

 

[Limpinhitter]

No... the unit turn is the first thing you do. And pros do it even faster than you. What amateurs don't seem to get is that there is only one position in which you can wait for the ball without hindering the stroke, so let's be visual:

That's the only position in which you can wait for a ball while having begun to prepare. You can wait, eat a sandwich and even move... it won't hinder your stroke, even if you wait 10 minutes like that, it doesn't change anything.

But once you go further and let your racket go behind, you are forced to swing. And for my pure personal pleasure, inform as many people as you can that this isn't a waiting position:

That's when you're ready to swing... you get the racket back from above, drop it down and then go immediately forward without ever stopping. One, single continuous action.

See Federer's timing on that? He was somewhat like picture 1 before the ball even crossed the net and, then, once it's very near, his hands split and he hits. One continuous gesture... you won't ever see him wait with the racket way back like some amateur. In this picture, he just started taking it back, but the racket will drop and pick up speed quickly.

You time your swing with the contact, not the bounce.

I agree with this, with one proviso. I try to minimize any additional take back of the racquet with the arm independent of unit turn. IMO, it's important for the legs, hips, upper body and arm to work as a single unit back and forth. That single unit concept helps to create a more consistent, repeatable swing.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Also, Macci emphasizes getting the elbow up - that implies that the lat might be stretched. It could also just be getting into a position to allow the lat to contract, with stretch or not. I wish Macci would add some muscle identifications to his well explained forehand instructions.

ISR appears in videos as rotation of the elbow axially. I can see it at around the time of impact and more obviously after impact. Still, the angular velocity of the rotation can still be high early well before rotation has progressed very much.

If you watch pros, what you'll notice is, first, an aberration in the tips amateurs receive... draw a line from the first forward movement of their racket up to contact and you'll notice that the hitting slope is very horizontal. It's in between 11 and 20 degrees for most pros in most instance; what we see as vertical is what happens after contact. They do swing low to high... 15 degrees is still not horizontal, but you won't get suddenly more spin by trying to exaggerate this -- if anything, you'll make sure that you will loose power, as well as spin potential.

Pros make contact bellow the center of the string bed while bringing the racket to the ball with a closed face when they are looking to hit maximal top spin. They also let the racket flip over the ball... look at these pieces of genius a researcher made:

 

[Chas Tennis]

.................hitting slope is very horizontal. It's in between 11 and 20 degrees for most pros in most instance; what we see as vertical is what happens after contact. They do swing low to high... 15 degrees is still not horizontal, but you won't get suddenly more spin by trying to exaggerate this -- if anything, you'll make sure that you will loose power, as well as spin potential.

Pros make contact bellow the center of the string bed while bringing the racket to the ball with a closed face when they are looking to hit maximal top spin. They also let the racket flip over the ball... look at these pieces of genius a researcher made:

I would not use the phase "very horizontal".
True, a lot more horizontal than I used to picture a heavy topspin shot as being.

"but you won't get suddenly more spin by trying to exaggerate this -- if anything, you'll make sure that you will loose power, as well as spin potential."
I believe that you are spot-on there and I'll try to incorporate more of that thought into my forehand - I lose a lot power going after more topspin as you describe.

As for those pictures with the racket face becoming much more closed after impact, I'd have to look into whether the ball has impacted low of center line on the racket face and that rotated the face or the player is actively rotating. I'd also want to see hits above the center line and see whether the racket face opens.......?. The racket is not so much heavier than the ball. An impact of a 2 oz. ball and a 14 oz. racket will turn the racket for hits off the center line (Toly's job) - and the grip tightness should be included. I've noticed that the racket turns in response to where the ball hits on the strings but I have not tried to measure how reproducible it is.

(Those picture are great, the best 2D way so far to display what is going on for tennis strokes. The only concern is that 3D can't be measured accurately by a single camera. If you know what you are doing - a distant camera - you can get accurate 2D, I think, but not 3D. 3D needs multiple cameras as in motion capture.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

Video Federer stroke - ball high on strings face opens....

.............................................
As for those pictures with the racket face becoming much more closed after impact, I'd have to look into whether the ball has impacted low of center line on the racket face and that rotated the face or the player is actively rotating. I'd also want to see hits above the center line and see whether the racket face opens.......?. The racket is not so much heavier than the ball. An impact of a 2 oz. ball and a 14 oz. racket will turn the racket for hits off the center line (Toly's job) - and the grip tightness should be included. I've noticed that the racket turns in response to where the ball hits on the strings but I have not tried to measure how reproducible it is.
................................

This video of Federer's strokes shows the ball hitting above the center line and the racket face opens up.

See forehand at 1:37.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrtyPvcuIk&feature=related

I think that the racket may go closed or open depending on whether the ball is hit below or above the centerline. Interesting issue.

I have read that the ball and racket are in contact for only 5 milliseconds and the racket turn cannot affect the ball's direction. Reference? I don't accept that yet.

Maybe as mentioned the pros seek to hit on the lower half. Is that to close the racket face and smother the ball so that it won't go high. ?

(FYI - If a high speed video shows a considerable bend of the racket head suspect that there is a distortion produced by the camera's Jello Effect (rolling shutter).)