mbm0912
Hall of Fame
let's see it in action
The beauty of pendulum take back ( forehand )
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
user92626
G.O.A.T.
good point.
unfortunately, such idea is lost on a lot of people here.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
With pendulum or loop?
With pendulum. Hence the reason i switched to the loop, it's more versatile. The pendulum requires more effort from your arm, although it also takes the elbow out of play, so elbow stays injury-free. Not sure where you play, but it's the standard park player's forehand. At least for women.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
The opposite of what I think and feel.
Variety is the beauty of life I suppose.
The reason you won't be able to flatten the ball, is because you will be coming at it from below, always. You will be catching every ball at 6 o'clock. The forward swing of the pendulum is the same as the forward swing of the loop for a low ball. The difference is the loop lets you hit the chest level balls and higher as well.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Using pendulum doesn’t mean that you have to leave it 100% to gravity. You can adjust its size depending on the ball. I can and did hit perfectly flat balls with it.
Clay lover
Legend
Just a question for experts--can you loop on your takeback into a pendulum-type forward swing? A loop type takeback also kind of implies that you are drawing a C with your forward swing too, but I find the forward swing hard to manage. Part of the reason I'm using a pendulum is I have immense difficulty getting the racquet angle just right after getting out of the loop--it's either too open or too closed.
But if I do an elaborate loop with my takeback, then proceed to lock my racquet into a stringbed-facing-the-front angle, it seems kinda counter-productive.
But if I do an elaborate loop with my takeback, then proceed to lock my racquet into a stringbed-facing-the-front angle, it seems kinda counter-productive.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I’m trying to simplify things as much as possible to achieve the desired outcome which is being able hit my target consistently. So the idea is to minimise variables. The last bit I’m trying to clean up from old habit is the closed racket face during the take back. Absolutely unnecessary and complicates things. So yesterday I started fixing it. During the ready position I hold the racket with its face perpendicular to the ground and take it back exactly in that angle and maintain that angle all the way during the forward swing as well. That way I don’t need to worry about where my racket face is pointing during the stroke as I already know it’s always perpendicular to the ground, which is the angle you want at contact, right? No confusion.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
In your OP video, you seem to leave out most separation and do not use the off arm technique for a boost of the uppermost body turn speed. Are those two things - often seen in ATP forehands - that you are excluding? Your uppermost body still turns from hip turn but there is less trunk twist as is seen in high level forehands. That trunk twist might stress some backs. Are you deliberately leaving it out?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No. If you watch again you’ll see that I extend my left arm parallel to the baseline. Yes my hand is not on the throat of racket as long as before and I’m not using a straight arm extension like Federer but my upper arm definitely extends along the baseline which I believe is not bad for an indication of torso turn.
Sir Weed
Hall of Fame
I've mentioned this in previous responses already so please excuse that I'm repeating myself: technique needs context.
Show what you intend to do with the ball (on the rise flat/fast down the line, long cross court, short cross court, whatever). Post videos where the viewer knows exactly what you want to do.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
We’d agreed on that already. Wait for the weekend.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I was going to ask later but while you’re here, you want me to hit anytime on the rise or as soon as it bounces like a half volley?
Sir Weed
Hall of Fame
"On the rise" ie like when you step into the court in order to take time away from your opponent. You hit the ball before it reaches the apex after bounce.
But sure, throw in some half volleys, comfy zone balls. Ideally in patterns, for example: repeat{3 - 1}
0 volley
0.5 half volley
1 on the rise
2 apex
3 after apex
Whatever makes sense and is doable with your ball machine or hitting partner.
Sir Weed
Hall of Fame
I meant other threads but hey, no pressure. You have nothing to prove to me.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Something looks off with the left arm during the forward swing. Does not seem to be actively involved in the rotation? Just dangling?
Jeff Salzentein is a big proponent of catching the racquet with the left arm, which is definitely not happening here.
Jeff Salzentein is a big proponent of catching the racquet with the left arm, which is definitely not happening here.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
I know. It looks a little limp and drops too low.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
That might be a consequence of the pendulum style where you are starting off in a low ready position versus the high ready position of the modern "C" loop...
But on second thought, the left arm is pretty high in ready position; only the hitting arm is low.
Should be able to catch racquet at shoulder height as Jeff advises.
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Clay lover
Legend
I understand it's better to keep things as simple as possible, but just wondering if I can benefit from one of the two loops nevertheless.
Having a loop swing essentially means you are drawing two loops--one "C" from takeback to before contact, and another "C" low to high when swinging forward. I was wondering if it makes sense to benefit from the added momentum from the first loop but remove the second loop and just do a back to front swing.
Clay lover
Legend
I'm actually thinking if Hewitt and Del Potro fit the above criteria--both have a high takeback but then transitions into more or less a level swing
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No, it was limp with the loop as well.That might be a consequence of the pendulum style where you are starting off in a low ready position versus the high ready position of the modern "C" loop...
But on second thought, the left arm is pretty high in ready position; only the hitting arm is low.
Should be able to catch racquet at shoulder height as Jeff advises.
Federer’s left arm doesn’t go up all the way either. But interestingly his left hand never ends up lower than his elbow.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I see a huge loop in both of them. Requires excellent timing.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I believe the service toss moves in a 3D parabolic arc into the court.
Yet Serena gives a 2D tip here at 02:50 which I do not follow. Something about toss travelling in a straight line.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No that was a while ago. Raul_sj said my left arm might be staying too low because of the pendulum, that’s why I posted this video to show that it was the same with the loop forehand as well. Definitely sticking with pendulum style.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The line between the two shoulders indicates hip turn. Hip turn + trunk twist = uppermost body turn. Shoulder joint motion adds to those two for total upper arm motion. The total upper arm motion is the most important thing for racket head speed.
The off arm, elbow near straight and straight out, is often used to add a little angular momentum boost to the rotating uppermost body. See ATP forehand videos. I don't know the stats on how often it is used. The straight arm has a higher angular momentum because its moment of inertia is higher with a straight elbow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mo·ment of in·er·tia
noun
PHYSICS
- a quantity expressing a body's tendency to resist angular acceleration. It is the sum of the products of the mass of each particle in the body with the square of its distance from the axis of rotation.
Note - "the square of its distance from the axis of rotation." is why it is more effective to have the elbow straight and arm straight out, as the ice skater does with two arms and a leg to spin up.
The use of the off arm for the forehand has been posted with the ice skater as an example. Players warming up or practicing lower intensity might not use the off arm. I don't know the stats of how often players use it.
See videos. You can see all these features - separation, uppermost body turn, and use of the off arm - watching tennis tournaments on TV. Do stats by looking at players not under pressure when they want to hit pace.
Here is separation, hip turn, uppermost body motion with upper arm, and use of the off arm. His off elbow is high but not near straight and bends early on this forehand. The off arm is the first body part that gets up to speed as has been discussed earlier. Curiosity originally pointed out the function of the forehand off arm on the forum.
Djokovic is more flexible than most players, not the best example of trunk twist to copy. But he displays these characteristics well.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Compare forehands frame-by-frame on this post. Behind camera views start at 1:17.
Instructions to compare forehands frame-by-frame from 2 Youtube videos on the Forum.
1) Find a forehand in the OP video with the behind camera view. (1:17 on are behind camera views.)
2) Place the cursor on the video - always well away from the time line - and hold the Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select that video. If you don't use Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select a video, the YT video will start playing and we don't want that for single frame analysis.
3) On Youtube use the PERIOD/COMMA KEYS to advance or go back one frame. Find frame closest to impact.
4) Next, go to second video and repeat above steps selecting another forehand impact.
5) Move across frames to compare frame-to-frame. Always use Alt-Left Mouse Click to select the video that you want to work on. Go to frames with similar body/racket positions for comparisons since frame rates are not known.
Any problems with this process, please let me know. If anyone is able to do this on a phone, please post.
This is working on my computer with Windows 10 and Chrome. I am using the laptop touchpad.
Instructions to compare forehands frame-by-frame from 2 Youtube videos on the Forum.
1) Find a forehand in the OP video with the behind camera view. (1:17 on are behind camera views.)
2) Place the cursor on the video - always well away from the time line - and hold the Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select that video. If you don't use Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select a video, the YT video will start playing and we don't want that for single frame analysis.
3) On Youtube use the PERIOD/COMMA KEYS to advance or go back one frame. Find frame closest to impact.
4) Next, go to second video and repeat above steps selecting another forehand impact.
5) Move across frames to compare frame-to-frame. Always use Alt-Left Mouse Click to select the video that you want to work on. Go to frames with similar body/racket positions for comparisons since frame rates are not known.
Any problems with this process, please let me know. If anyone is able to do this on a phone, please post.
This is working on my computer with Windows 10 and Chrome. I am using the laptop touchpad.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
What exactly is this? Pulling the off arm actively and deliberately towards the torso to help the rotation? If so is it really important or just a myth? Who’s measured its efficacy??
Grip n Rip
Rookie
I thought you were the chosen one!
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Good luck trying to explain those points to people like Curious and Keen Dog something.
They probably thought they have discovered a better way when virtually every pro has moved on to the high take back or loop.
Curious thinks just because pro's do it, we can't use it unless we're pro! He doesn't understand the difference btw form and intensity. Fed has both good form and great intensity. A 50 years old rec player can potentially have Fed's form but not Fed's intensity. In fact there're a few kids whose forms look like Federer's.
Also, we follow pro's form and not some outdated or park player's form because pro form is discovered to be the most optimal. It's the road map even if you can't travel on it (yet).
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I have not seen a measurement of its efficacy. My guess ~5% type effect. See ice skater. I see it in most ATP forehand video when they are not pressured and want to hit pace. Try the soup can demo that you can find in these posts.
Sir Weed
Hall of Fame
Important. Think of pirouettes in ice skating. Get on your toes on one foot only, rotate with arms stretched out then pull them in.
Sir Weed
Hall of Fame
Given your almost pedantic precision and technical, analytic approach in your posts I'm surprised you do a guess - especially since you could do an approximate calculation. 5% is way off.
Angular momentum - Wikipedia
The cool thing about this stuff is that you cab make kids learn to use these things rather easily while an adult's brain tries to ping pong it out between reasoning and experience and instead of playing, feeling tries to find shortcuts via language information.
Grip n Rip
Rookie
I dunno, aren't you ill equiped to be talking about misconceptions as a learner?
Keendog
Professional
WTH are you calling me out for?
This thread is the definition of the blind leading the blind.
Post #123 curious old forehand, you would be mad to say this style isn't working better for him and he thinks he has a better feel for it. Talk about loops and ATP pros all you like, doesn't make a difference if you can't get the ball in. Not being mean to OP but he did have a vid where he called himself an error machine. Why is everyone objecting? Not everyone aspires to be 5.0
@Raul_SJ saying catch the racquet. There are four pro videos on this page alone, none of them catch their racquet. But ok good advice!!
That being said we all know he will change next week.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
"higher" in term of what?
Today, rec tennis uses higher quality equipment than the McEnroe era's.
Does that answer your question?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Lay off the red bull, man
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
@Curious , just trying to help.
I'm not sure what level rec player is in your mind, all real 4.5+ (some 4.0+) players have close to pro level forms, they simply have to in order to get to that level, even though below 5.5 they will still get pwned as they might not have the experience, nor the intensity (body muscle groups and diet etc), but to get there you need to have optimal movements and swing paths.
If you are content with just being a 3.5/4 player, then what you are doing with your own discovery is awesome, I would applaud you for it, and encourage you to keep going, but if you want to get 4.0+ you need to seriously look how modern pros (not the wooden era pros) are doing universally and copy that shamelessly. There is no shame in copying from the best.
All in all, I wish you good luck in your journey to enlightenment.
I'm not sure what level rec player is in your mind, all real 4.5+ (some 4.0+) players have close to pro level forms, they simply have to in order to get to that level, even though below 5.5 they will still get pwned as they might not have the experience, nor the intensity (body muscle groups and diet etc), but to get there you need to have optimal movements and swing paths.
If you are content with just being a 3.5/4 player, then what you are doing with your own discovery is awesome, I would applaud you for it, and encourage you to keep going, but if you want to get 4.0+ you need to seriously look how modern pros (not the wooden era pros) are doing universally and copy that shamelessly. There is no shame in copying from the best.
All in all, I wish you good luck in your journey to enlightenment.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Sure. I want to be able to play 4.5 level tennis. But I guess 4.0 should be fine too. Well, there’s always an ego factor in this bloody sport but I don’t see this only as an achievement of a certain level, I mostly want to reach there to feel the pleasure of playing at that level. Because it’s clearly much more fun and thrill as you go up, no?@Curious , just trying to help.
I'm not sure what level rec player is in your mind, all real 4.5+ (some 4.0+) players have close to pro level forms, they simply have to in order to get to that level, even though below 5.5 they will still get pwned as they might not have the experience, nor the intensity (body muscle groups and diet etc), but to get there you need to have optimal movements and swing paths.
If you are content with just being a 3.5/4 player, then what you are doing with your own discovery is awesome, I would applaud you for it, and encourage you to keep going, but if you want to get 4.0+ you need to seriously look how modern pros (not the wooden era pros) are doing universally and copy that shamelessly. There is no shame in copying from the best.
All in all, I wish you good luck in your journey to enlightenment.
PS: I played doubles today I think pretty much close to my desired level. Then I played a singles set. What an incredibly different stuff. So much more mental, much worse court coverage, stiff, either over hit or dink to net or the fence in critical moments. Pressure increasingly built up and of course lost 4-6 not being able to hold at 4-5.
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Something looks off with the left arm during the forward swing. Does not seem to be actively involved in the rotation? Just dangling?
Jeff Salzentein is a big proponent of catching the racquet with the left arm, which is definitely not happening here.
Also, Jeff says it is important to straighten the left arm. Why? He says to create spacing from the ball... Not seeing that here. Left arm is bent thru the stroke.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
Does it really help spacing? If not I doubt it matters if elbow bent or not as long as the upper arm is parallel to the baseline, which sort of guarantees a good shoulder turn.Also, Jeff says it is important to straighten the left arm. Why? He says to create spacing from the ball... Not seeing that here. Left arm is bent thru the stroke.
PS: if it helps, how?
Like what am I gauging that way? The distance distance between me and the ball? Point where I should contact the ball? What?
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Here is my suggestion, first focus on your flexibility, and muscle strength in your lower body, I mean specifically your lower thigh, glute, and side glute as well, you should be able to be very flexible with the ability to stretch without hurting yourself, twist without feeling cramping all over.
Once you get to the point that you feel like you can 100% do the fed hop to move around the court at full speed all the time while getting moderate balls coming your way around the court then in my opinion, you have pass the intro to higher level tennis.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
That's what Jeff says. Not really understanding it but he is the ATP pro and he says he's seen the spacing issue with many students.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
People have different "bent" arm when straighten, try it yourself, your arm will still look "bent" at certain angle even if you tried so far straighten it.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Totally agree. Tennis is mostly about two things:
Getting to the ball
Hitting the ball
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