The better player on grass. Djokovic or Murray?

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The better player on grass?


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abmk

Bionic Poster
Djoker beat Federer 3 times and Nadal 2 times at Wimbledon. Won 11 matches over TOP 10 players at Wimbledon, just one less than Borg and one more than Sampras. Djoker deservedly belongs to the club of 5+ Wimbledon champions.

wins over ~33 old federer. fed at ~31 beat prime djoko convincingly.
4 Wims at prime or prime-ish level, that's it. the other 3 involved significant luck/hyper-inflation era - in other words flop competition.
He's a little below Borg on grass.

grass depends least on rankings among surfaces. seedings is better, though still not that great. even then Sampras beating #12 seed rafter in Wim 00 is better than DJoko beating top 10 Berr/Shaps in Wim 21.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Some cannot accept the reality that Djokovic is an excellent grass courter. :cool:

he's excellent on grass, but count of 7 is absolutely unequivocally mega-inflation. would be at 4 tops in decent era. the ones he won at prime/prime-ish level.
 

Enceladus

Legend
wins over ~33 old federer. fed at ~31 beat prime djoko convincingly.
4 Wims at prime or prime-ish level, that's it. the other 3 involved significant luck/hyper-inflation era - in other words flop competition.
He's a little below Borg on grass.

grass depends least on rankings among surfaces. seedings is better, though still not that great. even then Sampras beating #12 seed rafter in Wim 00 is better than DJoko beating top 10 Berr/Shaps in Wim 21.
Oh, your excuses about Fed's age. Federer in Wimbledon 2014 & 15 was in better form than in Wimbledon 2010 & 11. I'll show you why - Berdych defeated Federer in four sets in 2010. Seven years later, Roger defeated him without losing a set. Although Fed was seven years older, it was in better form than it was in 2010. And Fed's 2017 form was on a similar level to that of 2015. In other words, Fed from Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 would be easy prey for Djoker from Wimbledon 2014 and 2015. :giggle:

I think you underestimate Berrettini. He has the potential to be a multiple Wimbledon winner in the future. Among Next Gen players is Matteo clearly the best on grass.

Nole is now a better / greater Wimbledon player than Borg. More titles and longer life.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Oh, your excuses about Fed's age. Federer in Wimbledon 2014 & 15 was in better form than in Wimbledon 2010 & 11. I'll show you why - Berdych defeated Federer in four sets in 2010. Seven years later, Roger defeated him without losing a set. Although Fed was seven years old, it was in better form than it was in 2010. And Fed's 2017 form was on a similar level to that of 2015. In other words, Fed from Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 would be easy prey for Djoker from Wimbledon 2014 and 2015. :giggle:

I think you underestimate Berrettini. He has the potential to be a multiple Wimbledon winner in the future. Among Next Gen players is Matteo clearly the best on grass.

Nole is now a better / greater Wimbledon player than Borg. More titles and longer life.
How come you bothering lmao.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Oh, your excuses about Fed's age. Federer in Wimbledon 2014 & 15 was in better form than in Wimbledon 2010 & 11. I'll show you why - Berdych defeated Federer in four sets in 2010. Seven years later, Roger defeated him without losing a set. Although Fed was seven years older, it was in better form than it was in 2010. And Fed's 2017 form was on a similar level to that of 2015. In other words, Fed from Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 would be easy prey for Djoker from Wimbledon 2014 and 2015. :giggle:

I think you underestimate Berrettini. He has the potential to be a multiple Wimbledon winner in the future. Among Next Gen players is Matteo clearly the best on grass.

Nole is now a better / greater Wimbledon player than Borg. More titles and longer life.


No. Fed was better in Wim 11 than in Wim 14/15.
Wim 10 he was worse because he was hampered by leg injury.
Wim 11 b/w Fed/Djoker could go either way. Fed had beaten him a month ago at the French Open. But tsonga GOATed and fed fell just short in that match. Tsonga played ok in the semi, but much worse than he did vs Fed in the QF.
and past prime fed in Wim 12 beat prime Djoko comfortably in Wim 12.
Wim 17 Fed was a little better than Wim 15 fed. more adjusted to new racquet and better stamina.

as far as Berretini goes, all I can say is BerrLOLOLOLOLOLOL. He is just about meh threat at his best and he wasn't even close to that in Wim 21 final. his FH just doesn't work anywhere as well when he is moved about by good players. fed's prime GC field had so many better players than him. Berretini is a worse version of Raonic, who is a poor man's version of Roddick.

Djokovic has achieved more than Borg, but he's worse on grass than Borg. hence why he had only 3 Wimbledons before 30 and 4 Wims at prime/prime-ish level.
Borg had 5 Wimbledons and 6th final in a row long before.
Just mega vulturing, getting super-lucky in the worst grass court years of open era doesn't make Djoko better.

When someone calls talking about ~33 and above as excuse, they've lost all sense of tennis, bah. Stop making such rubbish evaluations.
 
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RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
I was asking if you think Djokovic is the greatest.

You can argue with his achievements he is the most successfull and decorated player ever. I think it's past arguing even, he is. His latest domination at Wimbledon is the icing on the cake, winning 7 Wimbledon titles is just an unreal feat along with everything else he has done.

As far as making comparisons if he is better at hitting a tennis ball than Borg, Laver, Pancho and all these guys, that's another discussion. They where all great in their own times and made the best out of what they had. Hard to compare that.
 
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thrust

Legend
Nope. Mega lucky Djoko has super inflated count at Wim thanks to hyper-inflation era. Deal with it.
According to the ATP and ITF, Novak Djokovic has won 7 Wimbledon titles, Andy Murray has won 2. YOU should try to deal with FACTS as your opinion means nothing.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
According to the ATP and ITF, Novak Djokovic has won 7 Wimbledon titles, Andy Murray has won 2. YOU should try to deal with FACTS as your opinion means nothing.

ah yes, a 10 year old could have checked on the internet and said the same thing.
But if you don't see how weak/inflated his last 3 wins are, then why bother evaluating/watching tennis.
 
ah yes, a 10 year old could have checked on the internet and said the same thing.
But if you don't see how weak/inflated his last 3 wins are, then why bother evaluating/watching tennis.
Well Fed for exemple won GSs vs Philipoussis and Baghdatis. I don't think this era is weaker than the early 00s so let's take the facts they are.Every era have strengths and weaknesses and it's subjective their strength.
 

ForehandDTL

Semi-Pro
I’ll take Murray.

Higher peak and sent Djokovic to the cleaners on grass every time.

Djokovic has won all his titles against Granddads and bums.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Well Fed for exemple won GSs vs Philipoussis and Baghdatis. I don't think this era is weaker than the early 00s so let's take the facts they are.Every era have strengths and weaknesses and it's subjective their strength.

Fed beat Roddick in WIm 03 semi. Roddick was 32-0 on grass in 2003-05 in matches vs not Federer including beating Hewitt, Agassi, Ancic, Karlovic, Grosjean, Johansson, Philippoussis etc.
Fed had beaten Davy, Haas along with Baghdatis in AO 06. Davy in particular played well.

06 is on level with 10/15 as relatively weak anyways thanks to flurry of injuries - Hewitt/Safin/Agassi etc.
16-present is clearly worse than 06/10/15. and 20-present is even worse in particular.
03 is better than all of them.

Importantly this was prime Fed. even if you make Wim 03/AO 06 draws tougher, he would win.
Make Wim 19-22 draws tougher for Djoko, he'd lose.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Djokovic with 7 Wimbledons is a little below Borg who has 5...

spiderman-j-jonah-jameson.gif


There are some salty people on this forum...I swear.
 
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T007

Hall of Fame
Oh, your excuses about Fed's age. Federer in Wimbledon 2014 & 15 was in better form than in Wimbledon 2010 & 11. I'll show you why - Berdych defeated Federer in four sets in 2010. Seven years later, Roger defeated him without losing a set. Although Fed was seven years older, it was in better form than it was in 2010. And Fed's 2017 form was on a similar level to that of 2015. In other words, Fed from Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 would be easy prey for Djoker from Wimbledon 2014 and 2015. :giggle:

I think you underestimate Berrettini. He has the potential to be a multiple Wimbledon winner in the future. Among Next Gen players is Matteo clearly the best on grass.

Nole is now a better / greater Wimbledon player than Borg. More titles and longer life.
Your IQ level is below 60. Berdych beating federer at 2010 has nothing do with his level. Federers prime ended in 2010. After that he was good in patches was inconsistent. Still a 31 year old Fed outclassed prime novak in 5 sets.

Djokovic was lucky to escape in 5 in 2014. Sp stop gloating as if djoker beat a prime Fed. Only Nadal beat a prime Fed in 5 sets.

38 year old Federer holding a match point against Djoker in 2019 doesn't make that version better than his younger self.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer USO 09 final or Djokovic AO 15 final
2. Agassi USO 04 QF or Murray Oly 12 SF
3. Murray Wim 13 final or Nadal AO 17 final
4. Davydenko AO 06 QF or Djokovic USO 10 final
5. Murray AO 15 final or Fed Wim 19 final
6. Federer Wim 17 QF or Roddick USO 03 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final or Djokovic AO 13 final
 

ForehandDTL

Semi-Pro
Djokovic with 7 Wimbledons is a little below Borg who has 5...

spiderman-j-jonah-jameson.gif


There are some salty people on this forum...I swear.
Who did Djokovic beat though. Christian Garin, Kyrgios, Norrie, geriatrics?

gimme a break dude. Borg beat actual competition
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Who did Djokovic beat though. Christian Garin, Kyrgios, Norrie, geriatrics?

gimme a break dude. Borg beat actual competition
Another salty one. Who did Borg beat in '78 and '79? Nobody but Connors. If Djokovic didn't beat anybody then he must not have either. Let's forget Djokovic handled Nadal and Federer 5 times for his titles, and his draw in 2014 is tougher than any draw Borg ever had but yea he's below Borg at Wimbledon with 2 more titles. That's only something out of a dreamland.
 

ForehandDTL

Semi-Pro
Another salty one. Who did Borg beat in '78 and '79? Nobody but Connors. If Djokovic didn't beat anybody then he must not have either. Let's forget Djokovic handled Nadal and Federer 5 times for his titles, and his draw in 2014 is tougher than any draw Borg ever had but yea he's below Borg at Wimbledon with 2 more titles. That's only something out of a dreamland.
That Connors win was more impressive than any of Djokers wins.

2011 Final was against a version of Nadal who had no backhand all year. WTA serve and sitter forehand bouncing inside the service line.
Then He beat geriatric Fed 3 times.

2018 was impressive though.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Another salty one. Who did Borg beat in '78 and '79? Nobody but Connors. If Djokovic didn't beat anybody then he must not have either. Let's forget Djokovic handled Nadal and Federer 5 times for his titles, and his draw in 2014 is tougher than any draw Borg ever had but yea he's below Borg at Wimbledon with 2 more titles. That's only something out of a dreamland.
Nadal Wim 18 SF out of 10?
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
That Connors win was more impressive than any of Djokers wins.

2011 Final was against a version of Nadal who had no backhand all year. WTA serve and sitter forehand bouncing inside the service line.
Then He beat geriatric Fed 3 times.

2018 was impressive though.
Connors win was more impressive than any Djokovic win? Why, because Connors was #1? Then you should be just as impressed with Djokovic's wins over Nadal in 2011 and 2018. Connors also is not even close to the player Federer is at Wimbledon and I wouldn't even put him on the same level as McEnroe, Edberg or Becker. Djokovic definitely has more impressive wins than Connors.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Nope not to me. I have a spreadsheet lol.

You did Rod 04/09 and Fed 14/15 and Nadal 06. While your at it you can do Nadal 11 :sneaky:
A spreadsheet? LOL.

I don't know. I would have that Nadal pretty high. What did I rate 2018 Djokovic as?
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
A spreadsheet? LOL.

I don't know. I would have that Nadal pretty high. What did I rate 2018 Djokovic as?
You didn't lol. But u had Fed 15 at 8.5 and Fed 14 at 8 further back. Don't know how you rate Nadal compared to them but I assume similar.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Djokovic a 4. Nadal a 9.5

Peak Nadal can’t beat scrub Djok.

-NoleFanny
But you're the guy that says Djokovic doesn't have any win at Wimbledon more impressive than Connors. The Connors who got whitewashed by Borg, McEnroe, Curren and Cash? Not just beaten but plastered. Ok, do you. Lol.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
HC like joke clay stopped a 11/10 level but can it be less than a 9 even on the harshest scale?

Meh it's all opinion based :D
 

ForehandDTL

Semi-Pro
Nadal at RG 2012 not even a 8.75? What match did you watch?
Certainly not in the final. Not impressed with his spinny short backhand in the final.

In 2010, 2017 and 2008 he was rocketing shots off of both wings. 9+ is reserved for that.

2012 probably an 8.25
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Another salty one. Who did Borg beat in '78 and '79? Nobody but Connors. If Djokovic didn't beat anybody then he must not have either. Let's forget Djokovic handled Nadal and Federer 5 times for his titles, and his draw in 2014 is tougher than any draw Borg ever had but yea he's below Borg at Wimbledon with 2 more titles. That's only something out of a dreamland.

LMAO. Borg beat prime Mac in Wim 1980. no Djoko win at Wimbledon comes close to that.
Borg also beat a red-hot Tanner in Wim 79 final. Wasn't just Connors in 79 Wim.
Borg's win over Gerulaitis in Wim 77 SF (an all time match) is also better than any Djoko win at Wim.
His 77 draw of Gerulaitis+Connors in SF/F (&Edmondson in early round) significantly tougher than any Djoko draw at Wim.
But keep showing more of your ignorance and Djoko fanaticism.
 

ForehandDTL

Semi-Pro
But you're the guy that says Djokovic doesn't have any win at Wimbledon more impressive than Connors. The Connors who got whitewashed by Borg, McEnroe, Curren and Cash? Not just beaten but plastered. Ok, do you. Lol.
Wait…. Connors? Didn’t he beat Mac in a legendary match? I’m talking about Mac not JC

Didnt even realize I typed in ‘Connors.’ I don’t know about the Connors-Borg match.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
But you're the guy that says Djokovic doesn't have any win at Wimbledon more impressive than Connors. The Connors who got whitewashed by Borg, McEnroe, Curren and Cash? Not just beaten but plastered. Ok, do you. Lol.

Connors beat Mac in 82. Went 5 vs Borg in 77/81.
and bringing in 85/87 Connors is heights of desperation.
 
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