The Big 3 era is inflated due to lacking competition from outside Europe

[NeutralFan]

FIBA Basketball World Cup - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Are you European? You can watch Euroleague basketball it’s really high quality. A step below the NBA but still very good.

I know there's a basketball world cup but I heard usa doesn't send it's best team and world basketball association should do something to make sure it's world cup is like other teams sports like Rugby union , FIFA. I tried watching Euro league but fan culture and all is nothing compared to football. I watched NBA play offs and final in early 2000s when Lakers had Shaq and Kobe , those days Basketballs seemed real fun. I guess I need to start watching NBA again. Serbia and Spain has great basketball culture but lots of catching up to do. I think I made a mistake after not watching NBA once Kobe and Shaq got off prime, I missed on LeBron and Curry .

 

[Lleytonstation]

I know there's a basketball world cup but I heard usa doesn't send it's best team and world basketball association should do something to make sure it's world cup is like other teams sports like Rugby union , FIFA. I tried watching Euro league but fan culture and all is nothing compared to football. I watched NBA play offs and final in early 2000s when Lakers had Shaq and Kobe , those days Basketballs seemed real fun. I guess I need to start watching NBA again. Serbia and Spain has great basketball culture but lots of catching up to do. I think I made a mistake after not watching NBA once Kobe and Shaq got off prime, I missed on LeBron and Curry .

Nah, watch the NHL instead, where silk is made.

 

[NeutralFan]

Nah, watch the NHL instead, where silk is made.

Looks quite fun, i heard there's constant fight in ice hockey , are there cards and sending off when the team fight with hockey stick?

 

[Lleytonstation]

Looks quite fun, i heard there's constant fight in ice hockey , are there cards and sending off when the team fight with hockey stick?

Haha there are fights but not many. Not cards but penalty minutes. Think red card but for 2 minutes.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

After his team choked out the Cavaliers with a 3-1 win window and two home games to settle the series, I highly doubt it.

That's good because I wasn't being serious.

 

[Eureka]

Where was the meaningful opposition from inside Europe either? Federer / Nadal / Djokovic happen to be European, and didn't achieve what they did because they are European. These three were ( Djokovic remains) exceptionally committed and focused, and by a fluke had the superb skills to rise above the rest. They spurred each other on and other players, European or otherwise were simply not up to muster, especially at GS level.

If I have assessed correctly, interesting to note the non-European GS title wins in the last 20 years:

US Open: Roddick in 2003 and Del Potro in 2009
Australian Open: Andre Agassi in 2003
Wimbledon: None
French Open: Gastón Gaudio in 2004

Only 4 of the GS titles in the last 20 years were won by non Europeans.

But then 23+22+20 = 65 GS titles out of 79 over the last 20 years up to Wimbledon 2023, were won by just 3 men. Of the remaining 14, only 4 were won by non Europeans. However, the other European players didn't exactly have a significant impact upon the 3 Maestros either, with Murray and Wawrinka each winning 3 GS titles and reducing the rest of the tally to just 4 in the last 20 years - Thiem / Medvedev / Alcaraz with 2 titles. Hardly stiff opposition in the scheme of things - whether European or non European.

 

[DSH]

That's good because I wasn't being serious.

Then a curry sauce would do you good.

 

[Lleytonstation]

That's good because I wasn't being serious.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

 

[Lleytonstation]

 

[Rago]

Nice thread. @Kralingen

This is what I gather:

- Other options in sports (weird ones, lol) for American population to pursue lucrative careers which pay more;
- A bunch of bunch of mugs and bums produced in America (Ryan Harrison fits the stereotype) who lack work ethic due to being brought up in a woke/soft environment.

 

[Rago]

I really can't understand how American journalism measures a great sportsman. You would typically see them going with stuff like:

"Look at lebron he is just a physical specimen 6'9 290lb can bench press 500 pounds, runs 100M in 11 seconds, has a 48 inch vertical, destroyed the NFL combine and so on and so forth, could have played on any sport... so athletic"

Meanwhile Messi maybe the greatest sportsman of all time looks like your average office guy.

Easier to sell the image of giants as the "warriors of the modern day Rome". American journalism is more along the lines of talking about nothing but "animal like athleticism"; they don't seem to much about skill and having to use a brain and excel at the sport.

Tom Brady is a good example of a guy who is basically "do you even lift" and dominated the sport with his precision and tactics. If he had poor facial aesthetics, you can bet media would portray him as just another dude despite being miles better than overrated Peyton Manning.

 

[duaneeo]

Pre-2011 Federer won 16 slams, 5 WTFs, 17 Masters, and was the YE#1 five times. Pre-2011 Djokovic won 1 slam, 1 WTF, and 5 Masters.

There is no "Big-3 era". ATG Federer is pre-2011. ATG Djokovic is post-2010. The "Big-3 era" is a combination of separate eras.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Happening to basketball now. Do we even have 5 Americans in the top 10?

 

[crimson87]

Easier to sell the image of giants as the "warriors of the modern day Rome". American journalism is more along the lines of talking about nothing but "animal like athleticism"; they don't seem to much about skill and having to use a brain and excel at the sport.

Tom Brady is a good example of a guy who is basically "do you even lift" and dominated the sport with his precision and tactics. If he had poor facial aesthetics, you can bet media would portray him as just another dude despite being miles better than overrated Peyton Manning.

Tom Brady is still a very tall guy isn't he like 6'5/195cm?

I don't get is,most American sports cater to big and tall people, so that narrative of "we are not good at X sport because all of our best athletes play football or basketball" does not compute with average sized people.

I am sure there are a lot of American males interested in sports between 5'5 and 5'11 that would be a good fit for soccer despite not being the "physical specimens" or "freaks of nature" that American sports typically look for.

 

[Kralingen]

Happening to basketball now. Do we even have 5 Americans in the top 10?

This is why MJ is the weak era king.

No international competition in his bum era.

LeBron on the other hand battled 5 international MVPs (Dirk Nash Giannis Jokic Embiid) and ATGs like Doncic, Ginobili, Parker, etc. every round in the strong era.

 

[TheFifthSet]

This is why MJ is the weak era king.

No international competition in his bum era.

LeBron on the other hand battled 5 international MVPs (Dirk Nash Giannis Jokic Embiid) and ATGs like Doncic, Ginobili, Parker, etc. every round in the strong era.

Gr8B8

 

[Kralingen]

Pre-2011 Federer won 16 slams, 5 WTFs, 17 Masters, and was the YE#1 five times. Pre-2011 Djokovic won 1 slam, 1 WTF, and 5 Masters.

There is no "Big-3 era". ATG Federer is pre-2011. ATG Djokovic is post-2010. The "Big-3 era" is a combination of separate eras.

Well, Federer is probably the strongest and earliest beneficiary of the awful American and Australian talent.

 

[Kralingen]

Gr8B8

Lol now you’re seeing my inspiration for the thread

 

[crimson87]

Well, Federer is probably the strongest and earliest beneficiary of the awful American and Australian talent.

Federer destroyed the last batch decent of American and Australian players (old Agassi, Sampras at WB, Roddick, Hewitt, Blake) Couldn't handle Rafter but he was pretty young when they played.

If anything Nadal and Djokovic benefited more.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Lol now you’re seeing my inspiration for the thread

Hidden in plain sight . You just have to take a stab at the dearth of great American big-man talent and the proxy-argument is polished.

 

[insideguy]

Tom Brady is still a very tall guy isn't he like 6'5/195cm?

I don't get is,most American sports cater to big and tall people, so that narrative of "we are not good at X sport because all of our best athletes play football or basketball" does not compute with average sized people.

I am sure there are a lot of American males interested in sports between 5'5 and 5'11 that would be a good fit for soccer despite not being the "physical specimens" or "freaks of nature" that American sports typically look for.

Eh. Hockey guys and baseball guys don’t need to be that big. It doesn’t hurt but plenty of smaller guys succeed in those two. So that’s a drain off right there.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

This is why MJ is the weak era king.

No international competition in his bum era.

LeBron on the other hand battled 5 international MVPs (Dirk Nash Giannis Jokic Embiid) and ATGs like Doncic, Ginobili, Parker, etc. every round in the strong era.

Ralflmao.

 

[crimson87]

This is why MJ is the weak era king.

No international competition in his bum era.

LeBron on the other hand battled 5 international MVPs (Dirk Nash Giannis Jokic Embiid) and ATGs like Doncic, Ginobili, Parker, etc. every round in the strong era.

Lebron was afraid of the western conference most of his career and stayed on the weak east with superteams hence his inflated finals appearances.

Duncan, Ginobilli, Kobe, Nash, Dirk, KD, Harden, Curry and most of the talent from that era had wars on the playoffs each season. The WCF winner was the de facto best team of the world.

 

[Kralingen]

Lebron was afraid of the western conference most of his career and stayed on the weak east with superteams hence his inflated finals appearances.

Duncan, Ginobilli, Kobe, Nash, Dirk, KD, Harden, Curry and most of the talent from that era had wars on the playoffs each season. The WCF winner was the de facto best team of the world.

I will tweak this by saying that they were afraid of him.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

hmmmm... Kralingen agenda present but unclear... will continue to observe situation as it unfolds...

It's a maximize their strengths, forget about your weaknesses kind of training.

of course, famously, sub-ATG elite players of previous generations have not had glaring weaknesses in their game that they never truly patched up. Jose Luis Clerc must have been very unlucky to not make a major QF outside of RG, because obviously he had a complete skillset.

Tsitsipas is a regular top 5/10 player and he's got at least 3 big holes in his game (backhand, return, mentality)

no one would ever argue John Newcombe's success was contingent on his improving his backhand and return, rather than polishing his serve, volley, and forehand strengths

Alcaraz is literally the first top player in the last 10-15 years who is a flashy ATG

the first complete top player in over a decade is an ATG... you're so close to getting it...

there is no grit and determination to actually become the best. We have way too many daisies in today's world who are happy with being average

People in the west have just become too soft to actually fight for anything. That's what living in a dream world with no problems does to you. That's why the idiotic woke movement is an actual thing that people talk about.

ah there we go, it's just repackaged "social media gen ROFLMAO."

Baseball on the Wii. GOAT

Wii Sports Resort Swordfighting and Wii Play Tanks >>>>>>

Imo, everything is more or less same but what has changed? May be it's clay? European grow up playing clay court tennis are far more suited to baseline era ? Earlier it wasn't the case till 90s and tennis was very different back then . Clay is the only odd thing out and seems most reasonable explanation.

poor developmental coaching.

combo of these two seems like the most reasonable explanation. the inverse would be Spain becoming a great tennis nation with a lot of good forehands, footwork, and shot selection because of the clay training and coaching. a sort of medium spot would be Russia churning out a bunch of players with great backhands because they play on indoor hard courts, and unlike Canadians their coaches recognize the incentives of the modern game and do a better job training fundamentals. fwiw a lot of top American men actually have very good or elite backhands, along with the usual serve success that can probably be partially attributed to our throwing sports. that's more recent than the same (less nation-specific) pattern on the women's side, so there may be an interesting story to tease out of gender separated but converging American developmental pathways.

I blame chipotle and chick fil a

hmm there might be something to look at with Lendl vs Navratilova and their evolving diet and fitness as they grew up and moved to America?

The question I have is where is the ATG talent? If there was a true ATG talent they would have minimal issue with the tour structure.

this isn't necessarily true. you can imagine a world with many times more ATG talents playing professionally than currently, if structural barriers (of which tour structure is one) were lessened significantly. the flip side of seeing an ATG talent "make it" is a dozen potential ATGs not making it for various reasons, inherent to the sport (injury) or not (financial support). you can think of it like general return points vs break points: if you get lucky you can cluster return points for a break no matter how bad you are at returning, but being a systematically better returner increases the likelihood that you break through. since we're dealing with the incredibly small sample of world class pro male tennis players among the incredibly large sample of aspiring pro tennis players, it's a lot harder for a nation to simply get lucky with even just one ATG.

 

[Kralingen]

Nice thread. @Kralingen

This is what I gather:

- Other options in sports (weird ones, lol) for American population to pursue lucrative careers which pay more;
- A bunch of bunch of mugs and bums produced in America (Ryan Harrison fits the stereotype) who lack work ethic due to being brought up in a woke/soft environment.

I think that culturally and generationally, Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and even Murray just have a single mindedness and an unbridled devotion to duty, one that made them get up every day and drill until their arms and legs were about to fall off. Not because they wanted to, not because they truly loved the game that much, but because they accepted the duty of being a world class tennis player from a young age with no doubts in their head.

I can scarcely think of anyone who has embodied the duty of a professional tennis star to that degree, since them. It probably does have to do with their upbringing as well. A Kyrgios, Tomic, Harrison, Roddick etc was showered with attention and positive feedback at a young age. Maybe the affluence and history of their respective countries hurt them. They got it all too fast too soon.

 

[Rago]

Tom Brady is still a very tall guy isn't he like 6'5/195cm?

I don't get is,most American sports cater to big and tall people, so that narrative of "we are not good at X sport because all of our best athletes play football or basketball" does not compute with average sized people.

I am sure there are a lot of American males interested in sports between 5'5 and 5'11 that would be a good fit for soccer despite not being the "physical specimens" or "freaks of nature" that American sports typically look for.

Brady is tall but not someone who you'd consider to be the epitome of a real physical presence in a contact sport despite his height. There are much shorter guys who are far more intimidating.

A large percentage of Americans see non-contact sports as an estrogen parade. You can go to Texas and discuss tennis and actual football (not that sport played with a hand egg) as sports and nobody is going to take you seriously. There is a deeper issue (insecurity) here that people see participating in non-contact sports as a question of their manhood.

American logic is that if you aren't gifted physically with height and strength, you have no business competing in a "sport".

 

[socallefty]

But this is only true of men.

America with their flawed academies and their unevolved style still produced Venus and Serena, by far the finest players of the generation and really of the entire 2000-2020 era. And Australia produced Barty, who was a dominant #1 and multi Slam winner.

Why would this phenomenon suddenly only apply to men but not the women?

I am not a follower of the WTA and can’t comment much on it as I have not seen top tournaments that often in person. It seems like on the ATP, you need both perfect technique and amazing athleticism to rise to the very top whereas the WTA is at a level where amazing athleticism can overcome deficiencies in technique, diet, training etc.

Anyway, I would say that the production of ATGs is somewhat random in nature and can’t be replicated just by training/coaching programs as it needs otherworldly talent in addition. It is possible that the rise of the Big 3 on the ATP Tour all from Europe at the same time just stifled the chance of champions emerging from other regions. It seems like the increasing number of top players from Europe (and Eastern Europe in particular) in the top 100 since the late Nineties/early 2000s is a real phenomenon on both the ATP and WTA tours and that might be more attributed to better holistic national academy training programs.

 

[Lleytonstation]

@Kralingen i think you got your answer...

Americans... Well, they don't make them like they used to.

American athletes are just dudes trying to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

[socallefty]

Americans... Well, they don't make them like they used to.

What about young Canadians like you? Do they suck too compared to older generations or did this phenomenon stop at the Southern border of Canada?

 

[Kralingen]

@Kralingen i think you got your answer...

Americans... Well, they don't make them like they used to.

American athletes are just dudes trying to keep up with the rest of the world.

It’s not just Americans.

I was just watching terminator 2.

We used to have Austrian legends like Schwarzenegger. Now we have softies like Thiem who hurt their wrist then lose it by 28.

 

[NedStark]

Starting to agree. But I don't see a glaring reason why us has struggled.

Got to be a combination.

We need an old american to tell us what it was like then vs now.

US tennis training is the main problem. Specifically, the US has been focusing too much on big serve & ball bashing combo with a lack of emphasis on forecourt skills, even though the US is an excellent place for a Federer-style all-court player to emerge, since it is among the few places that still have fast courts at grassroots level. It has a fair share of lower-bouncing courts for a top junior one-hander (*) to emerge. Yet, the only Federer-style player in the US in the last 10 years is…, well you know, Eubanks (**).


(*) The Federer-like one-handers with a conservative BH grip and non-clay BH mechanic.

(**) Regarding Eubanks, I ran into a YouTube comment which states that Eubanks’ coach taught him the OHBH because he was even worse with 2HBH. I think, this deserves some attention, because everyone here assumes that player X should be better off with a 2HBH. In the US, every aspiring junior player is automatically taught 2HBH.

fwiw a lot of top American men actually have very good or elite backhands, along with the usual serve success that can probably be partially attributed to our throwing sports. that's more recent than the same (less nation-specific) pattern on the women's side, so there may be an interesting story to tease out of gender separated but converging American developmental pathways.

Last time I checked, the last American player with an elite BH was Agassi. Almost every single American player since then was an Andy Roddick clone - big serve, big FH, average BH (and exclusively two-handed BH), until very recently. Currently, Fritz and Paul have good (but flawed) BH, but not in the same group with the likes of Zverev and Medvedev.

 

[NedStark]

hmm there might be something to look at with Lendl vs Navratilova and their evolving diet and fitness as they grew up and moved to America?

Btw, you can take a look at various Reddit threads about American food & diet in recent decades, and their comparison with EEuropean ones. Southern (US) cooking is a very good example of unhealthy cuisine - everything is deep-fried.

There is a reason why Americans are a lot more overweight than the rest of the world.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

I asked Nick Bollettieri about this in 2008 and he basically said the lack of US champions was due to the lack of talent signing up.

He was like, give me KG or Rondo and I’ll give you 30+ slams

 

[Lleytonstation]

What about young Canadians like you? Do they suck too compared to older generations or did this phenomenon stop at the Southern border of Canada?

Women's soccer are going to beat the Americans in the world cup. Well, maybe not, but they are good now.

We have the best hockey player in mcdavid and have produced some decent tennis players recently. Chase Claypool is one of the best receivers in the nfl.

Canada, for it's population, is doing great.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

It’s not just Americans.

I was just watching terminator 2.

We used to have Austrian legends like Schwarzenegger. Now we have softies like Thiem who hurt their wrist then lose it by 28.

Terminator landing on Earth was the peak.

 

[Lleytonstation]

Terminator landing on Earth was the peak.

Guess you haven't seen jingle all the way.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Guess you haven't seen jingle all the way.

superchat.

He landed on Earth with such grace. Like an ancient Olympian statue carved out of stone.

Kyle Reese landed like Murray.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Last time I checked, the last American player with an elite BH was Agassi. Almost every single American player since then was an Andy Roddick clone - big serve, big FH, average BH (and exclusively two-handed BH), until very recently. Currently, Fritz and Paul have good (but flawed) BH, but not in the same group with the likes of Zverev and Medvedev.

a little unfair to expect GOAT-tier BHs like Agassi's. from the Americans in the top 50: Korda has an elite BH on the level of Zverev and Medvedev - he's just aggressive and sometimes picks the wrong shots. Fritz has an elite BH that looks especially impressive on passing shots and lobs - he's limited by his subpar movement and his general refusal to go down the line despite having more ability and margin than most. Tiafoe has a very good BH - the bunt motion limits it on clay but it's very tricky on grass and faster hard courts in a similar way to Norrie's. i've seen Eubanks hit highlight reel backhands but i'm not sure if his drive backhand is technically sound, though he has a very nice slice. not sure i actually like Paul's backhand that much - think the outside setup and his sloppy footwork make him prone to dumping it in the net in pressure moments. Shelton's groundstrokes are undercooked in general. Wolf actually has an elite backhand that looks like Rune's and is relatively better than his eye-catching Soderling-esque forehand.

 

[NedStark]

What about young Canadians like you? Do they suck too compared to older generations or did this phenomenon stop at the Southern border of Canada?

When it comes to tennis, young Canadians are clearly better than older gens. Canada had 0 top 10 players prior to Milos.

 

[RS]

hmmmm... Kralingen agenda present but unclear... will continue to observe situation as it unfolds...

of course, famously, sub-ATG elite players of previous generations have not had glaring weaknesses in their game that they never truly patched up. Jose Luis Clerc must have been very unlucky to not make a major QF outside of RG, because obviously he had a complete skillset.


no one would ever argue John Newcombe's success was contingent on his improving his backhand and return, rather than polishing his serve, volley, and forehand strengths


the first complete top player in over a decade is an ATG... you're so close to getting it...



ah there we go, it's just repackaged "social media gen ROFLMAO."

Wii Sports Resort Swordfighting and Wii Play Tanks >>>>>>


combo of these two seems like the most reasonable explanation. the inverse would be Spain becoming a great tennis nation with a lot of good forehands, footwork, and shot selection because of the clay training and coaching. a sort of medium spot would be Russia churning out a bunch of players with great backhands because they play on indoor hard courts, and unlike Canadians their coaches recognize the incentives of the modern game and do a better job training fundamentals. fwiw a lot of top American men actually have very good or elite backhands, along with the usual serve success that can probably be partially attributed to our throwing sports. that's more recent than the same (less nation-specific) pattern on the women's side, so there may be an interesting story to tease out of gender separated but converging American developmental pathways.

hmm there might be something to look at with Lendl vs Navratilova and their evolving diet and fitness as they grew up and moved to America?

this isn't necessarily true. you can imagine a world with many times more ATG talents playing professionally than currently, if structural barriers (of which tour structure is one) were lessened significantly. the flip side of seeing an ATG talent "make it" is a dozen potential ATGs not making it for various reasons, inherent to the sport (injury) or not (financial support). you can think of it like general return points vs break points: if you get lucky you can cluster return points for a break no matter how bad you are at returning, but being a systematically better returner increases the likelihood that you break through. since we're dealing with the incredibly small sample of world class pro male tennis players among the incredibly large sample of aspiring pro tennis players, it's a lot harder for a nation to simply get lucky with even just one ATG.

Wii Tanks. I always got blown up

 

[optic yellow]

How much of the Big 3’s gaudy numbers and success can we ascribe to the massive talent glut from the rest of the world?

Glut means excess of, not deficiency.

 

[RS]

Son you didn't tell me apart from football have you watched any team sports, even as a causal. Ever watched rugby union, League , cricket etc ?

On a quite rare basis as a casual yes seen all those before. But football is the only regular team sport I watch.

 

[Razer]

I think that culturally and generationally, Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and even Murray just have a single mindedness and an unbridled devotion to duty, one that made them get up every day and drill until their arms and legs were about to fall off. Not because they wanted to, not because they truly loved the game that much, but because they accepted the duty of being a world class tennis player from a young age with no doubts in their head.

I can scarcely think of anyone who has embodied the duty of a professional tennis star to that degree, since them. It probably does have to do with their upbringing as well. A Kyrgios, Tomic, Harrison, Roddick etc was showered with attention and positive feedback at a young age. Maybe the affluence and history of their respective countries hurt them. They got it all too fast too soon.

The sense of duty died with the pre internet era, the crowd born after the early 1990s are the punks who can be called the social media generation. The era of writing letters was replaced by phones, that also replaced the duty bound crowd with weaklings who are born into a fast life. I mean someone like Roddick is still more duty bound than someone like Kyrgios but this is only because Andy is not born 15 years later, if he were then he too would be a social media punk. So not only did the talent drift away from Tennis, the diluted talents were further ruined by Social media. Prime Federer benefitted from bad talent who were duty bound but bad, however Djokovic and Nadal benefitted from bad talents with no sense of duty, that means bigger clowns.

 

[NeutralFan]

On a quite rare basis as a casual yes seen all those before. But football is the only regular team sport I watch.

Same here ,I am a regular football fan and catch Rugby union and Rugby league World Cup and 4 nations and other international tournaments. Do you understand cricket rules? There's too many formats so I didn't give it a try. Badminton is also a great team sport . Used to watch NBA when Kobe and Shaq played.

 

[duaneeo]

Well, Federer is probably the strongest and earliest beneficiary of the awful American and Australian talent.

Neither strong NextGen competition nor strong Non-European competition was lacking during Federer's era.

Again, don't combine what was the last era of the Normal Order with that of the Abnormal Order and beyond.

 

[Razer]

Neither strong NextGen competition nor strong Non-European competition was lacking during Federer's era.

Again, don't combine what was the last era of the Normal Order with that of the Abnormal Order and beyond.

Roddick and Hewitt type mediocre players are not what you call American and Australian competition, surely Roddick is no Pete Sampras and neither is Hewitt a Pat Rafter. Federer's peer group were a horrible set of players as well and that is why he could dominate so much, it was a talent vacuum as noted by Kuerten, Wilander, Sampras and some others in the mid 2000s itself.

 

[RS]

It’s not just Americans.

I was just watching terminator 2.

We used to have Austrian legends like Schwarzenegger. Now we have softies like Thiem who hurt their wrist then lose it by 28.

Thiem still did the service.

 

[Lleytonstation]

Thiem still did the service.

You know tennis went south when a guy like thiem is missed.